Treebranch

I'd go for the Karate, it seems pretty cool. Shorin Ryu Karate is an Okinawan Karate, I hear it's pretty cool stuff. I'd at least try it out. Good Luck.

1OneFighting how would you know what a samurai punched like. I don't think you understand the principle behind Budo Taijutsu, it works with any kind of attack. Boxing punches are still going for the same targets, head and body. Go find out if it's dead, go to a Bujinkan school and attack one of them.

1OneFighting read where AndrewGreen says MMA's is the only way to train, how would you respond to that if you study TMA. Most people don't even know what Budo Taijutsu is let alone have they even tried it. The Thread is no Best MA, I said agree with that. There is no best MA, but some MA's are specifically for Combat and other are for Sport, both are effective. Does that sound unreasonable to you? Weird huh.

1OneFighting said: The modern equipment replaced old make shift equipment that served the same purpose, the techniques are the same. We don't have speed bags and a ring. We use gloves and heavy bags and hand held kicking and striking bags. It's simply more convenient to buy this stuff, than to make it ourselves. They used to wear armor to train hard for certain things. I won't deny technology gives Artist useful tools, the old techniques still apply. For example, I paint with oils and I paint with Photoshop. If I had learned to paint soley in Photoshop I would be half the painter I am today. It all depends on what the client wants, we as Martial Artists are the clients. If someone asked me if I want to take the short cut through the woods or the long way around, I would choose the long way around. By taking the long way around I've taken more in, and I appreciate the hard work it took to get there. The poll is loaded for a reason, It is just as loaded as saying MMA is superior to TMA, because MMA is comprised of TMA's. Without TMA's, MMA's would not exist.

I agree that train MMA harder, because when we train weapons we can't really train full contact. MMA train in the same method as Sports Art do, so your right. Yeah all TMA's don't train this way, and not all MMA's train in weapons either. So my point is, it really depends on what you want to learn. Weapons training to some people doesn't seem practical, but it can be. I prefer to study weapons because they intrigue me, and the training you get with a hanbo, bo staff, or katana can be used with a broom stick or a bat etc.. You never know if you might need a weapon to fend off more than one person.

TJS it's called a sense of humor, I was joking.

Andrew Green are you following me? Anyway the way you described your training methods are the same as I describe mine, why is that so hard for you to believe? There are TMA's that train full contact also, not all of them of course. We have heavy bags, boxing equipment, we spar, just because we take it easier on certain techniques doesn't mean those technique don't work. I'm sure there are techniques that you teach that you would have to do at half speed or someone would get hurt. Lets just say you knew all the techniques of Budo Taijutsu and you are training the way you guys train. Wouldn't that be an effective way of training? If a TMA has grappling, ground fighting, throws, locks, kicks, strikes and weapons training in the method you speak of, would that be effective? Well that's how we train. If you choose to believe this or not, that is up to you. But I'll keep training this way and hopefully one day you will see that Budo Taijutsu is alot more than playing Ninja.

Because I sense an arrogance and disrepect for TMA. I am only repeating what others had said on this post. Read Andrew Green's comment he claims MMA is the only way to train, I don't agree. I agree the training methods are great, we use them too. I can't seem to get the point across, that TMA's train full contact when it is appropriate. I was saying that the TMA I study is very effective and we train very hard, we fight each other full contact and soft. Why is this so hard to believe?

You know what you guys are right, I'm wrong. You guys are the best in the world, no other MA can compare to MMA's. We all might as well destroy the thousands of years of development of Traditional Styles and everyone should study MMA. O.K. do you feel better now? I do.

I notice many people have little respect for Traditional Martial Arts. There's a preconceived ideas that because it is Traditional it is no longer effective. I would like to see if anyone can prove this.

Kung Fu is too broad. What kind of Kung Fu? There are alot of Kung Fu Styles out there ranging from Sport, to Exercise, to Combat. So I say Kung Fu.

Andrew Green, I'm not talking about Modern Military Training, I never brought that up, you did. I was talking about Fuedal Japan where Budo Taijutsu was battle tested, that all. I explained the training method we use they are the same. You don't study at my school how would you know how we train? Our training methods are realistic, we don't stand around dancing like a lot of Dogmatic Schools out there. We train full speed with certain thing like, striking, kicking and some throws. We grapple and do ground work, and we study weapons. I have always been fascinated with the Sword, I desire to learn weapons. Just because I can't walk around with a Katana doesn't mean I shouldn't study it. Weapon training is important to me, and I think if you want to be a well rounded Combat Martial Artist it is necessary to learn them. I invite you to go to a Bujinkan Dojo and have them show you some techniques, you will be very surprised. I didn't know what Budo Taijutsu was all about 5 years ago. I thought it was bunch of people sneaking around in black tights, throwing shurikens at people. Now that I am studying it I see that it's not about that, it never was. Hollywood Ninja Movies gave that artform a bad rap. It is a very unpopular MA to study today, it is not the latest rage, like MMA's is. Nevertheless it doesn't make outdated or invalid, on the contrary it really test the students dedication to learning it. I'm not training to be in the Military, I am just like you training in Martial Arts. I have my reasons, and you have yours. You think your right, I think your wrong. Besides I never said that MMA's training was bad or wrong or doesn't work. I just said MMA's itself it not the only way to learn MA's, it is just one of many ways. Do you think anyone trains harder and more rigorously than the Shoalin Monks in China? You or I personally will never find out the effectiveness of their MA unless you attack one of them. I dare you to go to Toyko and attack Soke Hatsumi, you won't last a second. By the way I checked out your curriculum online it's not much different then ours, I'm surprised you don't know that.

Metamorph said: The fact of the matter is something like Kung Fu Sansoo, Krag Maga, Budo Taijutsu, Atemi Ryu Jujitsu, are all considered Traditional. They are all Combat Martial Arts. Just because they don't use these kind of Martial Arts in UFC doesn't mean they don't incorporate striking, grappling, ground fighting, throws, chokes etc.., they do. So what if it's one style, it incorporate all the above and much more. The benefit of studying one style like the one above is that the transitions and movements are particular to that style. This means you don't have to learn to move 3 or 4 different ways to get the result you want. I'M GOING TO SAY THIS AGAIN, MMA'S ARE GREAT BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY WAY. All Combat Martial Arts are Mixed Martial Arts. They were just mixed a long time ago, by people who actually had to use this stuff in life and death situations.

Sevenstar said: We have the same amount of hand strikes as well, and there's more to fighting than standing toe to toe and exchanging blows. Yeah we have hundreds of techniques, but we don't memorize them and try to fit techniques into a situation. We respond just like you do, we are just taught to move differently than a kickboxer, grappler or a shoot fighter. MMA's teaches how to fight an opponent in your own weight class in the street you don't know what you'll get. You can't fight a 250 lb guy the same you would fight a 150 lb guy. You haven't even mentioned weapons training (firearms excluded from this of course), what kind of weapon training is taught in MMA's that I can't learn from Budo Taijutsu. I don't have to cut someone's head off to know the sword can cut. We train full contact with certain techniques, I think that's what your getting at. We do grappling techniques and invite people of other styles to try out their techniques on us. My teacher has sparred with the Machado Bros and they were impressed with the techniques he showed them. The training methods we do are the same as MMA's, I'm just saying this MA is already been mixed. Why is it so wrong for people who are getting good training from TMA go study something else. It's seems very unpopular to study TMA these days, everyone is so convinced the MMA's is the only way. There has never been just one way of doing things, ever. The "deadly techniques" work, they were tested in the battlefield and Grandmaster Takamatsu had something like 17 death matches and killed 9 of them, I don't know what happen to the others. This guy was deadly and he passed on the schools to the current Grandmaster Hatsumi. You can choose to believe that everything that has happened before you were born is all a lie, but history is history. I kickboxed and I had street fights, and I did O.K. When I was studying Kung Fu San Soo (Chinese Combat Fighting) a had some street fights, and destroyed them with that stuff, I didn't have to remember any techniques. Now I'm studying Budo Taijutsu and it's not for people who have trouble with abstract thought. It's a very intelligent and complete fighting system. I'm not putting other MA's down, all MA's are valid. I just think saying MMA's is the only truely effective way of fighting is silly, and short sighted.

Mr. Andrew Green how did you expect me to react when on your last post to me you finshed by saying "Go Play Ninja If You Want To". I took this as an insult to me and the Martial Art I chose to train in. I don't appreciate your patronizing attitude and your disrespect for a Martial Art that you judge based on bad 80's movies. I invite you to seek out a reputable Bujinkan Dojo in your area and have some of the techniques done to you. You will not have disrespect for Budo Taijutsu after that. I don't see how you can still believe that people who trained and fought in the Battle Fields of Feudal Japan were less skilled than some guys training in a Dojo, or fighting for Sport. I think you don't understand the experience that these Masters had being in full scale battles themselves and surviving because of the training that was passed down to them. Budo Taijutsu is always evolving, they even train in firearms if you'd like. It's not playing Ninja unless you want to, Navy Seals and Special Forces play ninja all the time. My goal is to learn a Combat Effective MA and that is what I'm doing. I'm not going to 3 different schools to learn MMA, I don't have the time or the money to pay 3 instructors and to learn MA's that don't relate to eachother at all. I have enough experience in other forms of Martial Arts and in Street Fights to know what works and what doesn't. I never said that MMA doesn't work, my point is that MMA is not the only way to train. You are claiming it is, and I disagree with you whole heartedly. You can mix 3 MA's, we are learning 9. We are learning 9 ryu within the same Style. Now back to your disrepect for tradition and things that our ancestors created. Do you think the Artist of today are better schooled than the Artist of the Renaissance. Can you name an Artist in our time that has been as prolific as Michelangelo. Why are the museums filled with all that old stuff? Why do so many people travel around the world wanting to see this stuff? Could it be that those Artists created something that is unparalled in it's level of perfection? The techniques they mastered were lost do to economics and sometimes to politics. The technology of today in my opinion doesn't make us better Artists, it just gives us a wider variety of tools. Things like how fast a ball is pitched can be measured now, because of technology. The materials for bats, balls and sports equipment in general has advanced. The steriod use and the nutritional supplements have advanced. But the human body and mind, sorry to say has not. Ask any anthropologist or neurologist what I've just claimed. The rigorous training methods and techniques of Traditional Martial Arts would have never been thought of if it were not for the necessity to survive. The techniques being taught in Modern Sport Styles of Martial Arts are limited to the rules of competitions and the repercussions of the law. We live in a consumer driven society and we are constantly being manipulated by propoganda to get our dollar. Combat instructors trained warriors for the survival of their clan, not for the Championship Belt. I think the motivations between the two are very obvious. I think you have the right to believe in what you want. Even if your beleif might be based on certain biases you developed from your personal success. Not everyone is you, and not everyone will agree with you. I am going to say again: There is no Best MA, but some are better suited for Combat and some are better suited for Sport. MMA's is not a MA it is several MA's, so therefore you can't say MMA's is the Best MA. Comprende?

Andrew Green the Modern MMA Master said:Take a sport which can be measured and compare scores now to scores 20, 50 or 100 years ago. Race times, jump distances, jump heights, etc. Do a little research and you will find a big difference in the abilities then compared to the abilities now. Why? Sports advance, just like every thing else in the world. Martial arts are no different. Now we have a lot more people training, a lot more people teaching, a lot more information available, research from sports science, etc. Even if we only had half the talent, we should be able to do better. TMA are effective to a degree for some things, but if effectiveness is the only concern they are not the best option. No "style" is, you need to create your own style. Ok, back to the soccer. Take Pele, you say he was the greatest so we'll assume he was. So lets have all soccer players immitate him, his training methods, his moves, his strategy. Will that turn out better soccer players? No, its silly But if you want to play ninja and do what you believe secret ninja clans did, go for it. Do research on sports and check the hall of famers and see what you come up with. Some records have never been broken. In sports where the equipment gets better because of technology, well that's a factor we can't really measure accurately. Suppose car racers from the past had the cars we have, the outcome might be different. I don't think car racing is a good analogy. Asking Boxing historians who the greatest boxer of all time was? People have less time to train now than they did in the past. Compare the literacy rate in the U.S. as opposed to 20 years ago, see what you find? Check the obesity rate, the crime rate, the need for psycho-therapy, do people really get better? Not as a whole. Martial Artists trained directly under Masters, they often lived with them. They lived and breathed MA's. They trained in Martial Arts for survival, not for show or competition. You have the typical modern view of traditional things because your sense of teenage rebellion won't let you see the value of some Traditional and very valid forms of Martial Arts. You pretend you are a top contender in MMA competition fighting and I learn something you can't comprehend. Oh yeah, I agree one thing has advanced the Marketing of MMA's.

Bas Rutten has some good points and I agree with most of them except the soccer one. Pele is and will always be the greatest player the world has ever seen. I think he's talking about Dogmatic Styles of Martial Arts, which not all of them are. I'm studying Budo Taijutsu and the training methods are sound, and change is welcome. If you don't change you become extinct. Instinct is stressed very highly in this Style, not Kata collecting. I also agree with TJS he said you can learn awesome stuff from a specific style like Muay Thai or BJJ since they are the best at what they do. I think every style has awesome stuff we can learn from, it's up to what appeals to you. I'm learning some awesome stuff right now. The character of a person is a huge factor in choosing a Martial Art, more so than their physical attributes. If your passive their are MA's that fit you. If you are aggressive etc. I don't think theirs necessarily a wrong way or right way to train, it really depends on the character of the person at hand.

King of Fighters I guess you never practiced any good knife defenses. We do randori for knife attacks and sometimes you get cut and sometimes you don't. I think if you understood the principles behind knife defenses you wouldn't have made that comment. It's better to know a little of something than alot of nothing. I agree with you if you can run away, run. If you can't you better know what to do.

Well said JerryLove.

metamorph said: That's great to be well rounded and if you feel studying many arts will do this for you, fine. I think it will too, but it's not the only way. There are Martial Arts that are very well rounded already, because they were designed for live Combat. The Mixed Martial Arts most commonly used in UFC of Pride were not specifically Combart Styles of Martial Arts. Are they effective, Yes. The only point I was trying to make is that there are MA's that are very well rounded and complete Arts, on their own. Budo Taijutsu has 9 schools within it that covers ground fighting, grappling, locks and levers, many weapons, evasion techniques etc... To me it's a very well rounded and intelligent fighting art. The principles are the same with all nine schools, the only difference is distance and timing, because your distance and timing is different when you are using a sword or bo staff, etc. It is one of the most wholistic Martial Arts Styles out there. Just because Taijutsu practitioners don't compete doesn't mean it's not effective. Your response is different in the ring than in a real situation, I know I used to kickbox and I never thought the opponent was trying to kill me, I was never scared. Or that my opponents friends might jump in, the fact is you can't replicate a real fight, all you can do is train for it. If your training is good, you should survive, the point is not to win, it's to survive.

Andrew Green the man with all the answers said: It's not my reason for studying this, but it is silly to assume that these people didn't know what was effective in Combat. Fuedal Japan was a very violent place and these techniques and training methods worked. The techniques that didn't work died in the Battle Field with the practitioner and were not passed down. These techniques still work and will continue working as long as we don't grow an extra leg or arm. The human structure has not changed, or do you think it has? Scandinavian makes a great point and all you Modern thinking people in your instant gratification, instant success type mentality, don't have the patience and dedication to learn a complete art form. I think ring fighters are great fighters, I don't know if you are. I also know that if you train with rules, those rules will filter in to your fighting. You are not training for a real situation, and that's cool if competition is your aim, it's not mine. So anyway Mr. Green if you think the wheel is being reinvented than you are very mistaken and you have very little respect for Traditional MA's. Modern MA and Traditional MA's are not immune to the McDojo symdrome or teachers who have bad training methods. Have you ever heard the phrase, " There's nothing new under the sun."? After 900 years of trail and error I would say they know a thing or two about what's effective in a "Real" fight, it's more effective than you'll ever know. To say it's outdated because it's old is so short sighted. I hope you don't teach your philosphy to your students. Let's see if your so called MMA's will be around 50 years from now. Sorry but if MMA's competition go out of fashion so will it's training methods and Grandpa Budo Taijutsu will still be around, as constant as the tide itself.

Andrew Green said: I don't agree Mixed Martial Arts is the best training method for fighting. I think it's the best for UFC and PRIDE. There not effective in fighting? What fighting? In the ring? In the street? Yeah no one has effectively ever in the history of civilization ever used locks and controls to defeat someone in Combat (sarcasm). Tokyo police don't use guns they study Budo Taijutsu and Jujitsu and other so called traditional styles, they are very effective. You wouldn't know if those techniques worked well or not even if you witnessed it. Those techniques at full speed are vicious and it looks like they fell really hard or all of a sudden he's holding his arm or shoulder in pain, on the ground. You seem to have a preconceived idea about the training methods of so called "Traditional" styles of MA's. I study Budo Taijutsu and we have full contact sessions with gloves and head gear, for certain techniques. Some techniques you just can't go full strength or your fellow student will be injured. When you study weapons you have to go slow or wear the proper gear. It depends on what Traditional MA I guess. The training methods we have are fine and have been for the last 900 years. Just because certain MA's don't showcase their talents doesn't mean they are not effective. They've worked for me, where it really counts on the Street.

I think delta 1 summed it up, beautifully. It's good to be a die hard fan, but no one may ever know the best Martial Artist.

If you kick with your shins enough, you'll deaden the nerves and consequently feel less pain. Is it good for you? No.

Sounds like the typical MA jock mentality. Go somewhere else if your not happy. I personally don't have time for that kind of stuff and I don't think you do either. Go study Jujitsu or Gung Fu, you must be interested in these styles if you mentioned them. Jujitsu is really cool and you learn weapons too. Good luck.