TJS

Yes the karateka was outmatched, But he accepted the fight and there was a large bet placed on it aswell by both parties..so who knows. I think your right about the wall but that floor looked and sounded like it was pretty solid to me

Yes I did, even if the Karateka Was a 7th Dan a BJJ Purple Belt will proabably be a better grappler. No I didint, once again read into things unless you think Karate has superior grappling techniqus your are wrong again. Thats proabably true, funny thing is the little Brother Royce fought in this thing called the UFC...Suprisingly he showed the better GRAPPLER dictated the pace and location of the fight...but once again all these repeated fights "prove nothing".. Here is another "pointless" video of a Karateka vs a BJJ Guy on a Nice Concrete floor with nice concrete walls, suprisingly it seems too look like what me and Johnny have been describing will happen in most cases. http://www.bullshido.com/dl_goto.asp?id=64 I love the repeated attempts to eye gouge also...always smart to extend your arms like that. Jerry im sure there are instances where the "grappler" may have hit first but Ican recall Royces first few fights off the top of my head- 1)Art Jimmerson- Royce shoots and gets a double leg slamming his opponet down and taking the mount(juslt like the above video) 2) Ken Shamrock-He shoots ken steps back and underhooks royce flips him over on his butt/back...royce turns around again gets up and pulls ken down into his gaurd..ken sits back for an ankle lock royce follows him back locks one of his leg and secures a side choke. 3) Gerard Gordaue-they struggle, Royce gets him up against the fence Royce eventually sweeps him and then follows him down taking the mount, gerard turns his back and royce chokes him out Now granted that isint all of the fights but A 170 pound guys beating 3 larger and stronger proffessional fighters without getting punched or kicked a single time seems like an effective meathod to me he might risk hitting somethien hard but you also risk getting hit by standing and striking with someone larger than you.. I dont ever recall seeing royce in a Dangerous position as far as a Wall or concrete floor was concered. The only time he did end up on his back was against someone ALOT bigger or stronger.

It's hard to "prove" anything in MA, but anyone who knows anything would not argue that the better grappler has the best chance of ending up on top. unless you are going ot argue that Karate teaches superior takedowns, throws, takedown defenses and positioning that BJJ then your argument really holds no weight. A) If you hit someone with a good shot and knock them down then they arent usally in a position to be a threat despite what they land on. if you knock someone out why does it matter if they hit their head on the way down?

A good summary of Judo and it's creation- http://www.judoinfo.com/whatis.htm Jerry is correct about the founder wanting something for PE but there were other reasons aswell.

I would persoanlly choose judo, I belive it would blend better with a striking art than aikido and it's principals.

Yes slowing it down is definetly beneficial I think both meathods have alt to offer but we proabably differ more on the % devoted to each meathod. Im certainly not an expert on throws(hopefully that will change since im starting Judo Tonight) but I belive most throws that require you going down aswell would atleast have you land in a dominate position.

Basically i think it means you should train realistically obviously for alot of techniques you can do them full power against a resisting opponet assuming you use proper precaution and when neccesary safety equipment, I do realize that some techniques are not applicable and those should be trained as realistically as possible whitch might not mean "full force against a resisiting opponet" Yes I can see how that would applly in some cases but if you pull gaurd you shouldent be in too much danger of getting hurt in the process. What type od throws are you talking about specifically? The only thing i could see affecting a grappler is when shooting alot of time they tend to "bounce" off their knees right before they get the takedown...whitch could be painful on a hard surface. As far as the footing goes I cant speak for all rings but belive most are pretty similar to a boxing/kickboxing ring as johnny said. but maye im wrong.

Jerry, there are two short clips of Mas Oyama fighting a bull, I dont know that they show much but here they are. http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/VideoClipses/OyamaBull1.avi http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/VideoClipses/OyamaBull2.avi and here is one of him breaking a rock http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/VideoClipses/OyamaRock.avi

Jerry I think we agree for the most part There are aspects that most MMA fighters dont train for( enviromental weapons/clothing/ biting, etc) but You can for the most part still use realistic training meathods if you choose to add these in. With the exception of weapons(bottles/glasses etc) I dont think Padded floors or walls favor the grappler, in reality there are corners and walls everywhere and a padded floor is usually in favor of the one getting taken down..people get KO'd from getting slammed on that padded floor a hard surface could do alot worse. there are certain times when it favors the grappler, like certain positions or submissions from the gaurd but for the most part I dont think it does.

Yes

But conversely there are many things that you probrably don't expect, not because it's against the rules, (there are none) but just because the environment in a real fight is so varied and irregular compared to the homogenized ring of MMA that you don't always notice something. For instance, if you were to casually walk through an area with another person looking for potential weapons, the conferred about your findings, chances are that both of you would have noticed things that the other did not. You simply might not have noticed a pitcher of beer that could be used to great effect as a swinging implement, or that the table wasn't bolted to the floor and could be tipped over onto someone while grappling on the floor. Even against things like biting, obviously you can't predict and be ready for every possible attack that the person could throw at you. I don't do much grappling, partially for that reason, because it gives the other person time to think and time to come up with something they might not have considered at a slower tempo. In the example of Mike Tyson, for instance, I don't think Tyson planned ahead and said "Okay, I'm gonna clinch, then bite his ear off." It was likely more like "Damn, this isn't working out. Hey.. what's this in front of my mouth? *chomp* Haha, sucker." Yes there are many varibles on the street.

Yes I should have said dominate or neutral position as opposed to position of disadvantage. I thought the point was that the diffrence was that in street altercations people would be prone to use such techniques? since the clinch can be many things i cant say a specific technique for breaking it since it could be a bear hug/double underhook/MT style clinch etc. but yes you could stay in that range and deliver strikes but I think most would prefer to break and strike especially if they realize the otehr party is trying to get them to the ground. Yes I agree wuch a techniqe can be destracting but that still iisint a fair comparison If i was fighting in a boxing match I would get Thrown off if someone threw a leg kick or a knee because You are fighting under a set of rules but obviously neither of these would be so detrimental in a real fight.

No, Im just saying in most cases biting would proabably not be my first line of attack. depending of the severity of the altercation I wouldent hesitate to do any of those things from a dominate position. And I have never seen any of them with one eye or chuncks of flesh missing they must be doing something right considering the amount of fights some of them have been in. Right, most try and defend the takedown/regain balance and get back into "striking" distance. that would proabably be my instinct asweel but obviously Holyfield was thingk something else...who knows

It's not a money grab as long as you are getting alot out of it. Some Mcdojos may use it for money but although expensive at times it can be a huge benefit.

No im Saying he would proabably rather choke someone out as a first option. If I had the skill he did, I would rather put someone to sleep then Start taking them apart with my teeth. but i guess thats a personal prefrence Maybe.. maybe not, I dont think either of us know as we have never seen him in a fight outside the UFC. True but thats usally Between two "strikers" . It would certainly be possible to get one off in a clinch but i think in the heat of them moment most would be more worried about avoiding the takedown and keeping their balance. The fact that they were in a boxing ring and he knew it was illegal most likely.

1 on 1 instruction is fantastic if you have the money and time to do so.

proabably just using practical attacks and defenses when it comes to real fighting

I dont think Royce would hesitiate to bit or eye gouge someone if he felt threatened, But your right it proabably would not be his first option. But he does have the skill to use other options effectivly I have also heard people mention Royce talking about biting people in certain situations in some of his self defense seminars. I think Most would agree bitting or eye gouging are not very effective in "striking range". by the time The clinch is achieved it is usaally not long beofore one person gets a takedown. So you dont have much time to pull something off before you end up on the ground..at that point see my last statment. HAd it been a "real fight" what woudl have kept holyfield from doing the same thing back? Yes i know of it

Oh this Comes from Your years of Experience in Krav Maga? wow i didint know we had any KM blackbelts on this forum since there are only a handful in the US. Lets not make sweeping generalizations or anything..now no one who does Krav Maga knows it's history So one person who dosent know what they are talking about represent the entire world now right? I would strongly advise yout to test your theory on a few IDF special forces troops. Are we getting to the truth here? seems someone has some personal issues with Israel.

Tibby- Not officially no, that dosent mean none of them have trained in Krav Maga. and i know for a fact that certain members of the delta force have trained in KM. here is a picture of a special forces unit holding up a Krav Maga Force Training division over a picture of Saddam in Iraq...if thats "proof" enough...oh wait i bet they were just paid to do that http://www.kravmaga.com/images/Mvc020s21.jpg I know 150+ diffrent law enforcement organizations here in the US have trained in KM, that dosent include the hundreds of LE officers that train on their own in the system. As Far as i know The IDF is the only ones that "officially" use KM(except for one European counrty but i cant remember whitcho one at the moement) but plenty of other have trained in it "unofficially" Maybe to some people, the same is true of Any MA. it's not stuck to KM. If something advertises KM so be it, what does that have ot do with anyone making a "fast buck" once again why are you singling out KM, BJJ is spreading like wildfire, do people not try and bring it in also? whats your point? Place you bet, since all KM instructors have to be certificed thru the national training center i doubt there are too many video jockeys out there...but keep on talking about things you know nothing about. I see no reason for this thread to be locked as long as we keep a reasonable discussion.,

But the large mojority of people would rather talk about how they are the best and they are to deadly to compete and such.

they arent fighting under MMA rules they will be fighting under K-1 Rules and Tysone will KO Sapp in under 3 minutes...count on it.

Krav Maga and aikido have pretty diffrent approaches to things...it maybe difficult to combine them but definetly possible.

How many special forces troops do you know? despite what our local expert says the IDF DOES use KM and so do some others. Obviously you are speaking out of ignorace because if you knew the number of Military and law enforcement organizations and personel that trained in Krav Maga both here in the states and across the world you would not make a statment like that. According to who?? you? how many krav schools have you visited across the country?

umm...no one has ever said sport fight are real...who are you arguing against? What people say is those skills transition very well into a real fight with propper training. If you want to talk about pressure point fighting go watch UFC 7 and see one of Dillmans top students, Ryan parker get Choked out by Remco Pardoel in the first round.