Taikudo-ka

The only prob I see is that students could get mighty disappointed if tey get dressed up and go along to the restaurant, only to miss out on the award... it would hype them up a bit, then let them down mightily. Maybe you could contrive to only invite the "new blackbelts" who've actually passed, but not tell them its for the award or that others aren't invited... but then that could be hard to pull off if students gossip with each other... oh well...

My flatmate is always boasting about how great the chidokan or something he did 10 years ago was, and how crap my own karate training is, even though he hasn't done a single move for 10 years. He demonstrated what little of the one kata learnt he remembered, and he had NO technique...not bad, none... it was like a weak dance or something. I doubt he could still do a roundhouse to save his life, but he keeps saying how he's going to spar me "once I reach his rank..."

Well I goota say that Ken's kata mentioned near the start of the thread does indeed qualify as a kata. If he likes to practise the moves described in that order, then the only difference I see between that and doing a kata is the words you use to describe it. People get so caught up in the syllables used to describe an act, or the outfit worn while performing it, or slight variations in the moves, to see that at the heart of it what they are doing is nearly identical. Eg how many Americans think the burqaa worn by middle eastern women is a horrible, oppresive, anti-feminine outfit, while being perfectly adjusted to and accepting western nuns walking around in virtually the same thing, but with a white trim and called a "habit". It may not be the greatest kata ever... simple and direct, more like ten no than naihanchi or wanshu... but a kata nevertheless. To get the true essence, I think you need to add an interesting and effective nasty street move in there somewhere, that can't actually be used in any form of competition... Preferably it will keep observers wondering "what the hell does THAT do" until you apply it to them in real life.

Well I hope never to come across that situation... I don't know, I'd probably try to bluff my way out of it. But as G says, if it came down to having to do something, or I'm dead anyway, there are a few things I'd consider. If someone if after your wallet, the act of passing it to them would probably be the best place to "pull a swifty". If you tossed the wallet at them from a distance, they might have trouble keeping a gun on you and catching it at the same time. Or when passing it, their attention is distracted, you could try a hard block to the holding arm and a strike with the other hand to the face or something. You could also try stepping in diagonally so you're out of the immediate aim, then using a striking block to take out the gun arm, another follow through to disable the attacker. Then grab the gun if possible, and get the hell out of there in any case. Note that you have exactly one chance to get this EXACTLY right, or you're most likely dead. One very slim chance. Pretty much the only way the "gun guy" will lose is if they back down and won't/can't really use the gun. Actually I'd say the best art to know in that situation would be stage magic, not martial arts... distract the guy with some sleigh of hand involving the wallet while you switch his gun with a banana or something. Then walk away with his gun and HIS wallet while he walks three blocks before realizing what's happened.

OK dude, instead of panicking and typing all caps, why not call around the king fu schools in your area and ask them what styles they teach, and in what progression you'd learn styles like tiger, crane, drunken, etc. I'm sure you'll find one that suits you, based on styles that interest you.

Interesting, thanks. Looked at the website. Hehe Tai Chi guys who actually compete in fights... cool. Something you rarely see in the west.

I think if you keep training you can keep getting better. Also regular exercise will keep you fit and limber as you get older. Most people deteriorate rapidly as they age because they sit on their butts watching TV all day with a remote control, drive 20 metres down the road for an icecream, and end up with an electric ride on tricycle not because their legs are useless but because its just too darned exhausting to walk anywhere. Now compare the 80 year old Kung Fu master who still stretches, works out and does a kata every day. Its pretty obvious that certain exercies, as generally practised in the martial arts, are extemely effective at keeping the body fit and limber from youth through to old age. Note that exercise is not the same thing as "taking abuse"... thus if you're fighting full contact with a hard style regularly, I'm sure you'd want to slow down a bit as you get older.

Haha TKD and you beat the kickboxers. I love it. Chalk one up for "artist" in "artist vs style". I want a report too...

Hehe I was up late one night and "accidentally" watched an episode of Walker - Texas Ranger. By the end, Chuck Norris was training this group of young guys. They were all standing there in horse stance throwing front kicks, and on each kick they were all dutifully shouting "key-ah". Is it that hard to get actors to do the right thing? BTW I've always had my own personal kiai. Most of the guys seem to try to immitate the sensei's or senior black belts kiai, but they do it poorly, flat, chanting it monotonously like its a "magic word" that will help their punch...

I heard somewhere that "kata" is a totally Japanese word. The Okinawans themselves just referred to kata as "te", thus "naihanchi-te", "wanshu-te", etc. Sound familiar...

I enjoy researching the history of original Okinawan karate, how it evolved from Chinese kung-fu, and the different styles that developed in Okinawa, along with those that practised them. Despite the myths about karate being developed to fight armed Japanese samurai, it is interesting ot note that the original Shuri-Te style was developed by the Peichin - basically soldiers of the Okinawan nobility. The early founders of the art - Sakugawa & Matsumura, were noble-born chiefs of the peichin, basically the Okinawan equivalent of the general of the armed forces, chief of security, and chief of police, all rolled into one. These guys also all went to China to study martial arts. Anyway... The Taikudo I study is a totally Japanese style, however. It even claims to have some ju-jitsu influence. Sensei claims the kata we learn are totally different from other styles. The first kata is called "tenino" but it is totally different from Funakoshi's "ten no". Its with the feet and knees together, bent at the knees with hands spread in front of the face. Then, hands are lowered slowly to fists held at the side. Next step is face left, bring hands up with left hand on right shoulder, and step into a "left facing" backstance while performing a lower block with left arm. Does this kata sound familiar to anyone? Other arts I'm interested in are ju-jutsu, wing-chun, and some of the other "original" kung-fu arts like tiger, crane, monk fist, etc.

Yeah, to some degree it can be an instinctive thing. Some people grunt, yell, exhale loudly naturally when doing physical work. Why? Because when you exhale, you tense your stomach muscles, plus others, making you more solid, rigid and stable - the "hard" in GoJu. In most forms of physical activity, one inhales and "goes soft" on the "off beat/stroke", i.e lifting the axe, moving oars forward out of water, pulling hand back for a punch. Then exhale sharply on the forceful action, i.e chopping the wood, pulling the oar through water, throwing the punch. I learnt this breath control instinctively from things like rowing, but found it totally applicable to karate. Also from doing a lot of rapping and vocal recording I've learnt to "shout from the stomach", which can result in some VERY loud kiai. (and no, I don't hurt my throat) To sum up, a kiai can: 1. Scare/stun your opponent (if done right) 2. Ensure exhalation on striking, which in turn a. Ensures proper muscle tension b. tenses the stomach which provides a harder surface if your opponent also gets a blow through (the actual, rather simple, basis of all "combat ki" stuff) 3. Encourage a spontaneous "combat mind" where you instinctively throw the best blow with each shout, rather than sit there with your mind chattering "try a jab, maybe a roundhouse, no wait, I could show off that fancy new kick here...maybe I should hard block that punch coming at me, or I could step outside, or try to catch and lock, or ..." boof! ouch!

BTW, Searcher, do you know how to calculate the mass for f=mv in relation to a fist, attached to a body, attached to the ground? It can't simply be body weight, because different techniques will add bodyweght to a punch in different ways, eg if you're stepping forward in a low, stable stance while punching surely more weight would be behind the punch than if you were standing straight up, feet very light, in an unstable stance.

The whole soft/hard thing is a way of trying to explain proper muscle control. Most people do not understand how muscles work, physics or the way leverage and joints work through their body. Thus, they do not perform as effectively as they could. Their muscles may even work AGAINST what they are trying to do. Forget about the rest of the body for the moment, and just looking at the arm as it throws a basic straight punch. (forward, reverse, or jab - all work the same for purposes of this demonstration) If you know that muscles only contract (pull), they never push on expansion, you'll see that all the work moving your fist forward is being done by your triceps. They contract, and the leverage of the elbow cause your fist to swing forward. Your biceps (the big bulging muscle on top everyone shows off) are only good for bringing the arm back in towards you. If you keep them tense while punching, they will only work against the punch, slowing down the blow and causing you to pull back on impact. This can easily be demonstrated through the Aikido "unbending arm". If you stretch your arm out, elbow down, with all muscles tensed, anyone will be able to easily bend your arm. Bigger biceps will only make it easier for them. But if you totally relax the arm, and tense ONLY the tricep, you'll feel your arm straighten more, lock at the elbow, and become very rigid. At this point, even a much stronger person will have great difficulty bending your arm. The results of all our investigation into "how the body works" is that we can see that the biceps and all muscles except the actively working triceps should be kept loose when punching. On impact, the forearm and wrist should be tensed and rigid to keep the striking surface straight and avoid wrist injury or "collapsing" the punch. The biceps should never be tensed, even on impact they should be loose to preserve the forward momentum of the punch and solidness of the striking surface. They only come into play when you retract the arm, whereupon you want them to perform just as fast as the triceps. You should also that the fast twitch muscles needed for speed are different from the slow twitch muscles you develop from things like lifting heavy weights. From this scientific analysis we see that muscle tension should never be an all or nothing affair, but rather applied selectively for the task at hand. Overall, though, muscles should be kept loose unless needed for a particular movement or form. I think the old masters understood this instinctively, which is why so many seem wary of excess body building, muscle tension, etc. Notice my explanation does not rely on any mystical force or unseen energy, just basic physics and biomechanics which can be confirmed by any competent sports physician or personal trainer.

How can you say something like "grappling is useless"... the wise respect all techniques, lest they be used against you one day. The best thing is to combine grappling and striking to some degree. Even as a striker, grappling can be useful to trap and control an opponent. You'll find it a lot easier to punch someone in the face if you have them in a headlock with your other arm! Next time someone tries a round house kick in sparring, try stepping in and grabbing the leg. You now have him at a severe disadvantage - in a real fight it would be nearly impossible for your opponent to avoid being tripped/thrown/knocked down, or just held in an awkward position while you pummel them. Another one is to grab and pull your opponents arm hard towards you... this makes it nearly impossible to throw a good punch with either arm.

http://www.warnerbros.com/ And watch "Kung Fu 3D" to see Kane dodge bullets. Also try Steppenwolf or Arcane for some pretty cool online games.

I hear ya MA... It makes more sense when you know that the symbol for warrior is composed of two characters, which mean "Stop" and "Fight". i.e. the warrior is one who is capable of stopping a fight. As you say, "art" refers to skills and techniques - artifice, not aesthetic art. It is actually a misuse of English to assume it means the same thing as "visual art", painting, dance, music, etc. There are similarities, but also differences in the words, even though they are pronounced the same. Actually one could refer to "visual arts" to mean skills and techniques related visual design - thus "arts" degrees. Or refer to "visual art" to mean an object of art, a noun, as in "I collect paintings and other art", which really refers to art-works. So the best concept I see of "martial arts" - bujutsu - is "skills and techniqes for stopping a fight". This should satisfy both those who say martial arts are not about fighting, and those who say they are indeed for use in combat... because both are applicable. "Style" simply refers to the way in which you go about stopping the fight. Every martial art should lead to the same place - no more fight, preferably with you unharmed, but the way they get there is different.

Hmmm... the F=MxV equation seems great to explain (very simply) the force of the punch, and how speed fits in. Basically, when we talk about a punch, "strength" IS "speed". That is, how fast you can launch the "projectile" (your fist) forward. The gun analogy was excellent. Except there the mass is easy - weight of the bullet. But with a fist, connected to a person? There must be an answer, and whatever it is holds the key to the other half of the "power punch". I'm guessing that whatever body mass you actually have in momentum on the moment of impact adds to the total mass of the equation. Thus if you stand still, only the weight of your arm and fist count. If your body is in forward motion on the moment of impact, with the weight "supported" through the punching fist, I'd say the body weight would then be added to the equation.

Bon, here is something kata can do that just hitting a heavy bag or sparring can't - encode a series of moves, techniques and concepts into a form that allows practise and perfection, then extraction and use of these techniques, in a real fight or in sparring. Motobu said that a kata can encode an entire fighting style... once you know the kata you know all the moves required for that way of fighting. So, YOU, Bon, could create a kata of your own, by taking all of your favorite moves and techniques and stringing them together in a way you think would be effective in finishing off an opponent, or opponents. Then you could practise your moves, anywhere, anytime, by going through your kata. You could also teach other people your fighting style by teaching them your kata. This would enable them to practise and learn all the basic moves. Then you can teach them how to use these moves in combat by sparring with them. Simple. And quite effective. Its really just an alternative to breaking everything up into hundreds of "basic" moves and "combinations". Of course, to tell the truth, I am pissed off at katas that have become nothing more than meaningless war dances myself. Like anything, a concept can become meaningless through misuse. I really don't care about kids. Let them do what they want. If they can handle the moves and discipline, they are welcome to train with me. If they can't, they shouldn't be there, but age is only a very general guide to mental maturity. I've seen 10 year olds who are very dedicated, extremely eager, and perfectly capable of turning into a Yoda-like whirling ball of death when sparring a full-grown man twice their age. Plus this lets then learn valuable courage and self-defense against possible real-life full grown molesters, abductors, older bullies, etc.

OK, I agree the "mass of the earth" theory is a bit far fetched, but I came across it somewhere... However, if your stance upon striking is such that all your weight is driven into your fist, couldn't you get close to 100% of your weight behind the blow. If you stand in front of something fairly solid, with a stance like you've just struck it, and can raise your front leg so that all your weight is being transmitted from your back leg up through to your fist, then I'd say you're using most of your weight possible. I know their is an equation for working out this "mass pivoting on a fixed point" force but I don't know what it is. F = M x V is good for showing the basics, particularly how speed is important to the equation, but not exactly how mass relates to a person standing on a surface like the earth. See, the problem is that in the free fall you describe, Newtons law means you bounce back with equal and opposite force to whatever you hit (or break if its hard enough) But if you're stuck to the ground, then the "equal and opposite" force that you feel on punching can't push you back. So, assuming it doesn't break your bones, where does it go? Into the ground, or can it in turn be "bounced back" into the opponent? Any physics/engineering professors out there care to tell us what the mass of a punch would be, assuming the body is held rigid and wrist, elbow, legs, etc, don't bend back. (Assume sufficient structural and muscle strength to avoid this happening - for simplicities sake).

Ah, thanks, Pacific Shore, I remember now. Isn't "fist law" (quan fa/chuan fa) basically the generic term for "boxing" or "fighting" in China? As in "monk fist boxing" - "arhat quan fa"?

Actually Bruce at his peak was more like 140lbs, which is 10 stone, or about 64kg... I'm just a few pounds short of this, and about 1-3" taller (Bruce claimed to be 5' 8" but I've heard 5' 6" would be more accurate, I'm about 5' 9") Would it make you jealous if I say I have a Bruce Lee body type, just not quite as developed and cut as he was. But the same wide shoulders, narrow waist, virtually nil body fat, even though I eat whatever the hell I feel like, including fried bacon and eggs, hamburgers, steaks, cakes, full cream dairy, nuts, chocolate, etc... I've never been very serious about my weight training though, so I'm not massive. I have a 2 pack maybe, not the full six, but what little muscle I do have all shows I think the only way I can gain weight is through training. Eating doesn't work for me, and if I don't do some physical activity, I don't get that hungry anyway. My appetite is directly related to my physical activity, I have noticed. As for strength vs speed, I guess it comes down to what you define as "strength" because the more I learn about how muscles work the more I realize that our English definition is rather vague. For example, the ability to hit hard is not directly related to the ability to lift heavy weights. Did you know that your biceps are virtually useless as far as throwing a hard punch goes? That's because muscles only pull, or contract, they don't push. It's your triceps (the muscle underneath when you do a typical arm flex) that propel the fist forward when you punch. The forwards "push" effect of the punch is achieved through leverage on the elbow joint (and not from the biceps pushing the arm out!) Your punch will actually be faster and harder if you keep your biceps loose during the entire motion, including the strike. The only thing the biceps will do is bring that arm back in towards you. Muscles come in "fast" and "slow" types - called fast and slow twitch. Fast twitch are for rapid, sudden movements - like punching. Basically imparting speed. Slow twitch are for exerting torque - drawn out pulling power for lifting heavy loads, performing long, slow repetitive exertions like walking, etc. Each muscle type develops with different forms of exercise, although most forms will develop both to some degree, although in different ratios. I consulted with my friend who is a professional personal trainer, heavily into how muscles work, and he confirmed my theory. Also being heavily into wrestling, he was happy to demonstrate to me how effective the biceps ARE for crushing bear hugs, all sorts of pulling actions, locks and holds and other painful stuff Now that you know how to use your muscles properly, we can look how to actually figure out and measure the force of a punch. What makes a punch "hard" vs. "soft"? Basic physics tells us that the force of an object on collision is equal to its mass x velocity (speed as measured in a straight line - waving your hand around really fast while not going forward much doesn't count here as "speed". It may fool your opponent, but not the laws of physics ) If we look at velocity first, we see that the most obvious source is the arm snapping forward with the action of fast twitch triceps muscle. However, velocity is additive. If the punch is launched from an already moving platform, the speed of the arm movement can be added to the speed of the platform, ie the body. Thus the basic karate step and punch where the forward velocity of the arm is added to the momentum of the step. Another way to gain speed is the twist of the hips, adding the rotational velocity of the body to the forward arm movement. The mass should basically be equivalent to your body weight. However, it gets a little bit more complicated here. If you're just flying through the air, then yes, your body weight times the final velocity of your fist, adding together all the speeds of the forward movement, the punch itself, is the final force with which you strike. Now when two objects collide, i.e. your fist and your opponents face, they exert an "equal but opposite reaction". Without getting too complex, the force of your punch bounces back on you. Thus, if you stand up lightly on your tip toes and hit or push something solid, you'll be pushed back, it won't move. Likewise, pushing something much heavier than yourself means you go back, not it. The more you collapse, pull back, or otherwise absorb the force of your own punch, the less it is transmitted to your opponent. Body weight helps here, as I've mentioned, but what is more important is to be able to firmly root yourself to the ground, keep your arm and wrist solid without bending the wrist, collapsing the elbow, or allowing your body to be pushed back away from your opponent in any way. Mainly, you want the wrist and forearm to be tense on the moment of impact, (although relaxed up to that point) along with the triceps, although the biceps should remain loose the entire time. Your stance on the moment of impact should be totally solid. You should not be able to be pushed backward from the line of strike. The weaker your stance, the more you'll just be pushed back by your own punch. You should also strike "through" your opponent a few inches. This will drive the punch in, adding some long twitch pushing force to the equation to drive the opponent back. I'm not exactly sure how the mass goes if you're 100% rooted to the ground. It could just be your total body weight, rather than the fraction you'd get by having a weak stance, but I've heard that you can transmit the "mass of the earth" by being totally attached and a part of it, according to the physics calculations... This would explain seemingly "superhuman" feats with simple mathematics... In any case, the final force comes down to how much your bone structure can support. If you hit something totally hard and resistant with a powerful enough blow, you will break your own bones... You can try and strike with stronger bones rather than weaker ones, but the principle is still the same. Ironically, the harder you can hit, the softer, more giving a striking surface you'll need. Fortunately, people are not THAT hard. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-06-06 13:32 ]

Another way to use distance is to continually back just out of your opponents range each time they strike. They'll get tired while you expend hardly any energy. Plus you'll get a feel for the sort of attacks they might try to launch. Then, when the opportunity is right, grab that hyperextende elbow G95 mentioned and pull them totally off balance, say into your fist. The opposite technique would be to close the distance VERY quickly, faster than your opponent expects, and let loose with your hardest, fastest blows. Something direct and quick like a front jab or front kick, with your loudest, most fearsome kiai on each one. It takes a very good opponent not to back up and go totally on the defensive. To make this all the more effective, once you have actually closed the distance and are ready to make contact, use the opposite strike to actually hit. So say you come in with a series of jabs to the face, and as your opponent goes into "hyper-defense" mode at all those upper jabs, actually hit them with a low front kick. This could also open another topic... the kiai as a weapon! Most people seem to ignore this, and have pretty pathetic kiai that has to be coaxed out of them. I don't think people realize how hard wired certain reflexive responses are to loud noises. The right shout ("sergeant-major's voice") can invoke an instinctive panic and fear response, as can, say, a dog's bark. Sensei sometimes shouts loudly at us when we attempt to perform techniques at high speed (AAAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!) and it sure puts me off my rhythm! (As I'm sure he notices...)

- "I read in Bruce Lee's book (The Tao of Gung Fu) that Kenpo is basically Japan's form of Gung Fu... is that true???" Actually kempo/kenpo is the Okinawan/Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese "Quan Fa", a term for "Kung Fu". The kanji are identical, only the pronunciation differs. I believe that "kenpo" generally (not always) refers to Okinawan forms of karate rather than later Japanese/Shotokan derivatives. Am I right in assuming that Ed Parker's system is thus of Okinawan origin rather than deriving from later Funakoshi influenced methods? Parker's system seems virtually unknown here in Australia. Karate is fairly popular, but most schools are of Japanese origin, eg Shotokan, Kyokushin, Shi-To, Uechi, Isshin-Ryu, Taikudo, to name a few, plus the ever popular Goju. Not suprising considering the high number of Japanese immigrants to the country.

- "I read in Bruce Lee's book (The Tao of Gung Fu) that Kenpo is basically Japan's form of Gung Fu... is that true???" Actually kempo/kenpo is the Okinawan/Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese "Quan Fa", a term for "Kung Fu". The kanji are identical, only the pronunciation differs. I believe that "kenpo" generally (not always) refers to Okinawan forms of karate rather than later Japanese/Shotokan derivatives. Am I right in assuming that Ed Parker's system is thus of Okinawan origin rather than deriving from later Funakoshi influenced methods? Parker's system seems virtually unknown here in Australia. Karate is fairly popular, but most schools are of Japanese origin, eg Shotokan, Kyokushin, Shi-To, Uechi, Isshin-Ryu, Taikudo, to name a few, plus the ever popular Goju. Not suprising considering the high number of Japanese immigrants to the country.