Taikudo-ka

If anyone wants to get really philosophical, a thought occured to me - By actually studying "in-your-face" hand to hand martial arts, we become aware of the nature of violence and the true consequences of force unleashed against the body. By gaining this awareness, and awareness of our own ability to cause harm, we become reluctant to actually resort to violence. Knowing how easy it could be to kill someone, and being aware of the seriousness of this action, paradoxically makes you value life more - you're less likely to think of violence as a game. Even if you do a "sport" art you are aware of how much any "real" violence has to be controlled and regulated to actually make it safe. I'm sure this is integral to the idea of budo, which is why the true warrior avoids violence at all costs. Of course, the warrior also has the confidence that comes from knowing that if some fool attempts violence, it won't be them that gets hurt. In fact, the true warrior would even try to save the fool's own neck by trying to disuade them from their course of action. Hmm... I guess in conclusion I'd say that the true purpose of the warrior is to prevent war, at all costs. What is more worrying is Gung Ho Willy in front of his computer screen, trying to decide what "evil enemy" to blast next...

Yes, exactly... The laws of physics haven't changed... The human body is still put together in the same way. Some people may be a bit larger or heavier, but their skeletal structure and mechanics remain the same, muscles still work the same way, etc. They can still be damaged the same way. If you go back in time everything doesn't suddenly become black and white, magic doesn't start working, elves and fairies and dragons don't appear, and homo sapiens have been homo sapiens for a LONG time now. And a crushed skull or projectile bolt though the heart almost always kills us, always has. Having our feet pulled out from under us almost always results in us falling on our asses, and always has. A "technique" is only outdated is everyone is aware of it, and everyone knows a consistent defense against it. So people develop new techniques to get around new defenses. But the funny thing is, as the "obsolete" technique becomes despised and forgotten, so does the defense against it. How can you defend against something you don't know of? So eventually the "obsolete" technique might again become suprisingly effective... until the cycle starts over. Plus techniques can be improved and refined to make them more effective, while keeping the same principle. A bullet is really just a high tech arrow head. A gun is nothing more than a high-tech crossbow, the crossbow nothing more than a high-tech, easier to use long-bow, and the bow nothing more than a high-tech delivery mechanism for a spear, and the spear just a harder version of a sharpened stick, in turn a refinement of the club, which was just an easier and safer way of belting the enemy than using your own hand. The basic, rather barbaric aim of causing as much damage, as deeply or internally as possible, to the most lethal location, while remaining as far away, safe, and detached from the violence as possible, remains the same. It sees its ultimate sinister manifestation in the video controlled, laser guided cruise missile...

Can anyone explain the "1000 pound horse stance" of Hung Gar? How does it differ from the "normal" horse stance? I've come across a few references to it online, and also mentioned in the Bubishi. What is the secret to an "immovable" horse stance? In Taikudo we have the low front stance as our solid, immovable stance. Not much is made of horse stance except as a physical training aid, eg springing up from horse stance to throw a front kick...

Sai - " Actually after over 20 years of multiple sclerosis; 14 of which were lived in a wheel chair kicking while standing is more of an accomplishment than any medical professional ever thought I would do. My ability to walk period is amazing them." Wow... Am I to assume the wheelchair was the first 14 years, and you've been walking around for 6 years now? That's pretty impressive for a disease we've always been told is both incurable and degenerative. Do you think it is your karate practise which has caused this improvement? How long have you been doing it? (Six years?) I feel that many people "give up" when they get diagnosed with some "official" disease by a medical professional. Sort of a self-hypnosis - "Oh well, I have MS (or whatever) I've never walk again, it's official so I might as well not even try..." Perhaps the answer for many disabilities is not the wheelchair, but simply to try a bit harder to walk. Seems to be the number one factor in every "miraculous" recovery from disease or crippling injury I've heard.

Traditional karate is mostly hand work, with supplemental kicks. I think most modern styles incorporate more kicks, but you still get nifty hand work, plus interesting strikes like knife hands, back-fists, ridge hands, hammer blows as well as the traditional fist. Noone tells you how many kicks to throw when sparring or competition... I believe Wing Chun is also fairly hand oriented. Jujutsu if you want to incorporate grappling. Then there's always boxing... Probably to avoid would be Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, White Crane Kung-Fu, and modern high flying WuShu.

Throw him to the ground and apply a choker hold... he won't be expecting that.

My brother used to be able to do this when he was young - early teens... Now he's in his mid twenties and he can't do it anymore, through lack of practise for years... Things I only learnt to do some time after I was twenty: 1. Touch my toes 2. Wiggle my ears

Mas Oyama was pretty cool. But everyone knows you have to live at the Shaolin Temple to feel the real martial arts spirit... Korea just doesn't cut it...

Maybe they just weren't expecting this guy, and he took a lot of them by surprise... Maybe they hadn't trained much against kicks? Maybe he was just damned good?

Making women believe they even need to know me, Let alone be their one and only... Actually probably getting off a side kick fast enough for it to be usable. Also with combinations involving foot and hand work in particular left/right combos, I've noticed I have a tendency to end up with the wrong foot or hand forward sometimes. I hate getting a technique right moving slowly, only to make a complete botch as soon as it's attempted fast.

Hmmm.... I've noticed in sparring I tend to go with hand techniques (hehe well I do study a "te" after all...) In real life I'd possibly use the basic front kick, cause it's fast and easy, if I wanted to kick. Maybe then the roundhouse, which I'm starting to like after initially finding it the most "difficult" of the basic kicks. I love the feel of a well executed side-kick, that one legged sideways stance, it all looks and feels great, but I just can't get it off quick enough yet... maybe after much more practise I'll be able to get it off in a usable time-frame. In fact, I've noticed that the major difference between me and the higher ranking belts is not necessarily that their form is infinitely better, or their strike that much stronger, but that they can put it all together a hell of a lot quicker than me. That's the sort of thing that only comes thru practise and dedication. Before I started karate I had this thing you might call my "natural" side kick. It was actually chambered like a roundhouse, but then instead of swinging around to strike with the top of the foot, I'd thrust out to strike with the heel. Is this a kick anyone knows or has learnt/used in any style?

" i know making profit wouldnt be desirable" Actually, making a profit IS probably desirable, indeed necessary. Your teacher needs to eat, and he can't live of a diet of kata and boiled obis. The recent dot.com bust saw many passionate, enthusiastic people lose out, losing money, failed businesses, etc (myself included), while many greedy money changers reaped in big profits (brokers, lawyers, insolvency administrators, people building and listing dodgy companies just to flog them off for a fortune before the bubble bursts.) The real world is not always a Ron Howard movie... There is another thread that discusses this topic, and I've posted some basic business advice there. Of course you need the passion and ability to run a good school. I can't tell you that, but I assume you already have it. I don't think profit=mcdojo - a dodgy school could indeed run at a loss due to bad business practises. A good school should be able to make a profit through good business practise and basically being aware of income and expense. Or do you think your teacher should pay for the privilege of teaching you?

Take the branch out of your own eye before you remove the sawdust speck in mine.

Hmmm, well if his whole point is that its "art" therefore doesn't have to be practical, I think he's basing his argument on complete mistranslation of terms, and misuse of the term "art" in English. Art doesn't refer to just pretty pictures like Van Gogh, which he seems to think. It can also mean skill, ability, effectiveness, even cunning tricks and subterfuge, actually short for the English "artifice", which has nothing to do with visual art. This is the meaning used to translate the word -jutsu, which has an almost identical meaning, as in Bujutsu - Martial Arts... It could easily be martial skill, martial cunning, martial techniques/tricks/strategems. Not martial dance/painting/music... Budo, well that's different, shouldn't really be called "arts" but we use the term for both in English. The "do" reflects the "long path" he talks about, but not in the way he seems to think. Always remember, plenty of martial artists HAVE beaten street thugs in the past... it's not a one way street, you can find stories of everything from how Joe Bloggs scared off a mugger with a head kick, to how a famous master like Mas Oyama beat off a gang of toughs...

Yah, I think Radok's class sounds pretty good as well - original shorin-ryu with focus on all the components - wow. The Bubishi is an ancient (well, pre 1900's, anyway) manuscript, originating somewhere around either Okinawa or Fukien province in China, or both. It basically records techniques from Chinese kung-fu, mostly white crane and tiger styles and monk fist boxing. It seems to be written in Okinawan - using a mix of Chinese and Japanese meanings for kanji and many obsolete or old style characters. It is known that several of the old karate masters possessed Bubishi and used it to develop their art. (Indeed the Goju name comes straight from this book). Wholesale extracts from the Bubishi have appeared in works by Gichin Funakoshi, Chojun Miyagi, Choki Motobu, and others. Obviously it has been very influencial in the development of the original karate-jutsu. How does this help you? Well, the Bubishi has three main areas of interest to the martial artist. 1. Vital points - various striking points are identified on the body. 2. Fighting principles and concepts - including, for example, 29 points on grappling and escapes. These are sometimes principles, sometimes straightforward advice like "26. If someone grabs you from behind in a bear hug, smash their face with the back of your head before counter-attacking." 3. The 48 self defense diagrams - 48 illustrations of one-on-one combat, each with a "winning" and "losing" move. The moves are sometimes (not always) described poetically and may initially seem hard to understand. But with study, they start to reveal themselves. I'm starting to recognize a lot of "karate" type techniques being shown in the pictures, and how they'd work in the diagram shown. There are a lot of illustrations of basic "street" situation like someone pushing you, grabbing your arms, attempting a bear hug, grabbing your hair, etc, and a suggested "winning" retaliation move. There are also a lot of ways to deal with kicks, usually resulting in the kicker being thrown. Diagram 39, for example, could indicate the "double elbow" move from Pinan Sandan, but shows it grasping one arm of the opponent to set up a throw (and pull him into the elbow), and the other elbowing him to soften him up for the throw. Diagram 22 shows another throw, and it is exactly the same thing Iain A. demonstrates in the other book I mentioned, page 50, fig 55. The edition I'm using is an English translation by Patrick McCarthy, published by Tuttle and titled "The Bible of Karate - Bubishi". If it's not in your local bookstore, try Amazon.com. They also have another English edition by someone else, which I haven't seen, except for the cover on their website.

"I know 5 boxers who have broken their hand by hitting people, bags, walls, etc without gloves on." Ouch, G... what causes that? Hitting with the pinky and ring finger? This seems to be the sort of punch I see most amateurs throw when they play "boxing"... Hehe my middle knuckes are a good 3-5mm larger than the rest, so my "natural" punch is a one knuckle! Had to work on the basic karate two knuckle... Actually, from pounding a rather (too) stiff makiwara, I've become a big fan of the open palm... man, that can strike, full force, and I hardly feel it... the palm absorbs the blow, but does it deliver the force! Delivered to the chin or nose, that could do some damage!

"but in all reality, it would take any boxewr ONE punch toend it all for the Hapkido guy" hmmm... well who can say that some (any) boxer necessarily has a harder punch than a hapkido guy, or say a karateka for that matter... Hehe I'm a mere novice and even I can slam a makiwara pretty hard... (too hard really... ouch...) Also all those bricks and boards don't brake with a light blow I'm not rubbishing a boxer's punch by any means, but they don't have a monopoly...

Hmmm, well I was just reading about Hung Gar last night... try this link: http://www.leesshaolinkungfu.com/hungpractice.html This has an explanation of the five elements/animals theory. What I found interesting is mention of a "thousand pound horse stance" in Hung Gar... This reminds me of the first of 48 self defense diagrams in the Bubishi... The winning technique is called "1000 pounds falls to the ground", and shows a guy droppping into a low horse stance, to escape a grab/bear hug. Could this show a Hung Gar influence on later Okinawan karate? Anyone with info on this "1000 pound" (literally 1000 catty, an Asian measurement close to 1 pound) stance? Anyone know where I could find some list of other "old style" names for kung-fu techniques?

"Imagine a kick-punch-elbow combination followed by a throw - ouch!" Yeah! That's what I imagine the "old" karate was like... and what made it so effective... instead of relying on one or two "concepts" like grappling, hard striking, etc, it combined everything in one... if your block is followed by a potentially arm breaking lock, followed by an elbow to the solar plexus to soften up the opponent for the throw you attempt next, then after the throw you finish with some stomping kick just for good measure, well, something there is bound to do some damage... Another option if you want to be both "ultra-traditional" and "ultra-modern" would be to get a copy of the Bubishi and study the 48 self defense diagrams it contains. You could try to figure out and practise each one as intended, and I'm sure you'd learn a lot of interesting stuff. I have been doing my own translation and analysis of these diagrams, so if anyone is interested let me know. I've discovered some possible very different translations to McCarthy's English edition in some diagrams, and personally think some of them are more meaningful.

Hi Sinbad! I'm interested in this as well... I'm in the same position as you, but as you can see a lot of people don't even know this stuff exists... the chances of me finding it in a local dojo are probably zilch... If you know of or have any books by Iain Abernethy, Geoff Thompson or Patrick McCarthy you might be on the right track. Look at the links I posted under "Karate Grappling - Iain Abernethy" on this forum. Yes Ai, according to Iain karate does indeed have a full over the shoulder throw like Judo (hidden in moves near the end of Pinan Sandan kata). He will put you on a free newsletter if you ask him. A quick history lesson for Ai Hate, what you call "true karate" actually exists, it is/was called karate-jutsu, or originally tote-jutsu in Okinawan (meaning Chinese Hand, not Empty Hand). Descending from White Crane, Monk Fist, and Tiger style kung-fu mixed with original Okinawan te arts, it included effective hand work, low kicks, grappling and throws, as well as some locks and pressure point techniques. A document called the "Bubishi" provides an important historical reference in the development of this art. Anyone else have any ideas or information on this stuff, web links to post. Anyone know of any training places in Sydney, Australia for this?

Whichever is best to use at that moment in the fight, and has the best chance of damaging your opponent/scoring a point, depending on your aims... They're two completely different things, technically... it's a subjective question.

Actually what I think we need are those big wooden medieval training devices that DO fight back. You know, those whirly things you see in movies where if you hit one thing, another thing will swing around and belt you in the head... that sort of thing! That would be some hard training!

A few extra thoughts: If you want to look at some sort of historical cultural integration of western martial arts in the same way eastern martial arts seem to have, look at something like Sherlock Holmes. In the original Conan Doyle stories, Holmes, as a late 19th century private investigator of course needs self defense skills. For the time period (around 1890 London) we find this means he's an expert at the noble arts of bare-knuckle boxing, greco-roman wrestling, and fencing. (striking, grappling, and weapons - a complete self defense system) Of course, as an English Gentleman, Holmes has a certain code of ethics he must follow. It's interesting to note that at one stage the European gentleman was bound by a code of ethics just like we imagine the ancient samurai or monk. So of course, he'd never kick an opponent while down, say, or recklessly slaughter them, but rather use minimal force necessary for self defense and to apprehend the criminal. Also he'd use a psychological trick like bending a steel bar to intimidate an opponent, rather than engage in actual combat. Although an expert in violence, he would prefer to live peacefully and only use his skill to apprehend criminals. Also the mind is held as the highest weapon, and resorting to physical means the last resort. Of course the idea that western society ever had any idea of honor, discipline, respect, etc, seems to have died out lately. I think America never really developed unarmed combat artsof its own because it was a gun society from day 1. Eurpoean arts like boxing were imported wholesale as sport. If the art is a mirror of the culture that created it, then as much as I hate to say it, I'd have to say that WWF is the ultimate American martial art. It's flashy, obvious, obnoxious, appeals to the lowest common denominator, is spread worldwide through video and syndicated television, and totally fake.

I would disagree... There is French Savate (a native European form of kick-boxing), English Boxing, Greek Wrestling, Fencing, Archery, not to mention all forms of gun-shooting, as the gun was originally a European invention. I think many more traditional European martial arts largely died out because of the long period of firearms war-fare (and other heavy artillery) rendered most hand-to-hand arts obsolete "in the field", and the time was not yet ripe for these arts to emerge as more public sports oriented forms. There are still groups that revive and practise traditional European arts like quarterstaff fighting, spear and pike, longsword. No doubt there is still some individual somewhere studying Norse axe forms and methods, and still knowing the right characteristics for a good battle-axe... It's just not as popular as Oriental forms. Before these Oriental arts became popular, the phrase "learning the art of self defense" in America or Britian meant learning boxing. I believe boxing actually evolved out of much nastier forms of unarmed combat in Europe... remember in the near past it was all bare knuckle and I'm sure at one stage they practised something more like Thai Boxing with full use of the body, elbows, headbutts, etc, at least as training for real soldiers. This form was just never used in publicised sports matches, and probably nearly died out when soldiers became full time rifle-men relatively early on in European history.

Well I don't think EVERY monk there is a paid actor... It's my belief (maybe I'm wrong) that there were still some "geniune" monks who studied there. Maybe sort of like the Vatican. Yes, it really is an independent city-state. Yes the real pope really does live there. But is it full of tourists and tourist attractions and 101 ways to get a buck out of the "devout pilgrim"? I can't imagine it otherwise. Actually I've never been to either. But it seems a rule in this modern world that if there is a "world icon" or site of historical interest somewhere, and you've heard of it, then so has everyone else, and it is full of tourists. (And also locals trying to make a buck out of them). This phenomenon is now world-wide, from London, to Ayer's Rock (Uluru), from Bob Marley's grave in Jamaica to the Shaolin Temple in China. Sad but true. Not that I think going to Shaolin would necessarily be a bad experience... I'm sure training in castle courtyards and stuff would be a great experience, and I'm sure the Wu Shu you are taught would be good (hehe well at least you know you're getting the "real" Wu Shu). You'd also meet interesting martial artists from all over the world. As long as you understood it was modern wu shu you were learning. Also, if you were interested in the monk's original lifestyle and training, from a historical point of view, a visit would still be very educational. You can still see the original training rooms, balance poles in the courtyard, etc.