Taikudo-ka

"If you want to learn to fight take up Boxing. Something that is about fighting. " I dunno... personally I think boxing is one of the more sport oriented martial arts out there... good hand techniques but limited and very "sporting"... and the "boxing punch"... doesn't that lead to broken hands when done bare-knuckled? I agree that karate is not just about fighting... But I think it's misleading to suggest it has nothing to do with fighting. Indeed, my instructor has stressed that what we are doing IS an art of fighting. (and thus be careful) Not that I can't already see weak points, but maybe one day I can solve them. Interestingly, karate was originally all about borrowing bits form here and there - white crane, monk fist, tiger style, native Okinawa te, etc. Bits from ju-jitsu, judo and other Chinese Kung-Fu styles as well. A good portion of Mas Oyama's Kyokushin must have been formed in his early street fighting days. Some of the other "old masters" like Choki Motobu were renowned street fighters in their day, so what they taught can't have been all tradition and kata... they weren't all like Funakoshi... I think Oyama became a kata convert much later in life...

Have trouble learning your kata in class Dafabe? But seriously, why spend that time learning 101 different ways to throw the same kick or punch? I think in this conversation, it is important to seperate the art, the "standard" training methods used in the art, and the practitioner of the art. What if in the 10 years of karate training you mention, I do "really fight" and take everything that works, and train hard, and take throws and locks and fun stuff from the kata and learn to apply it, and strike the heavy bag and makiwara hard, and learn all the pressure/vital points, and always consider effectiveness in reality instead of just competition "point scoring" moves? Think that I won't be a good fighter because I call what I've done "empty hand" instead of "Muay Thai" or whatever? I think that with effectively 1 year of BJJ (which is just another school of ju-jitsu, really), and 1 year of Muay Thai you'd also need a healthy dose of natural skill to defeat a dedicated 6 year karateka... [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-09 07:27 ] [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-09 07:45 ]

Since I began to study the art, I've become amazed at the range of karate schools and styles out there... I know "Kung Fu" is renowned for possessing a multitude of styles, but karate seems almost as diverse. I'm wondering if other students would care to comment on what they think makes their school/style unique. The style I study, Taikudo, incorporates points from ju-jitsu, judo, and other Japanese martial arts, into what is largely a karate style. I don't know enough about the other styles to say what school the karate originates from, or where it stops and the ju-jitsu begins... not that we do any throwing or obvious "ju" stuff, at least yet... What do other people find unique about their style? Are many studying one of the "big four" (shotokan, goju, wado, kyokushin)?

I thought this was appropriate, considering the thread about British martial arts somewhere else on this board. http://www.jogoff.com/ I had to think about it a bit before I understood their headline though - "Preparing Asia for the World Cup". P.S. I must warn you, there is some obscene language in this link. Although used humurously, it may offend. If so, don't click... [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-09 10:11 ]

I think there are two kinds of "bad" martial arts schools - the McDojo, and the ParaMilitary Dojo... The McDojo is basically there to take your money. I'd say the main signs are ineffective technique and compulsory exhorbitant expenses, like hundreds of dollars for grading tests, expensive certificates that must be bought, compulsory purchase of all equipment from the school, even though it's just a normal gi and belt. Offers like making you a "black belt" in a few months, promoting people based on how much money they've paid to the school, rather than ability, or promoting kids because parents complain loudly. Another good one I havn't seen mentioned here is signing people up for 6 month or more "courses" in a big group then progressing the course so fast most people drop out through inability to keep up. The ParaMilitary Dojo is a different breed again. If the participants wear camouflage gi, or ninja suits or "army field uniforms" from the disposal store, and the leader is a freak with a swaszticka tatooed on his forehead or something, weapons training with live blades and spiked chains begins on day 1, and everyone looks like they're on crack (even if they're not)... then immediately walk on, act normally, do not run, do not attract attention, DO NOT make eye contact. Particularly if you hear the students address the teacher as "My Master" or "Mein Fuhrer"...

Hmmm... a lot of fellow Aussies on this site. A shame to see one go.

"There is no way Im gonna let anyone hit me that way..." But supposing someone does, in fact, hit you "that way", despite all your best efforts to stop them... wouldn't it be better to have trained to take the blow and minimize the damage, however they do it, rather than just getting an unexpected pain...?

"Nowhere in the Bible are we told to resort to violence in defense of ourselves. " Hehehe... Exodus 15, from the Song of Moses, aka The Victory Chant Yah is my strength, my song, he is my salvation. ... Yahweh is a warrior; Yahweh is his name. ... Your right hand, Yahweh, shows majestic power, your right hand, Yahweh, shatters the enemy. So great your splendor, you crush your foes; you unleash your fury, and it devours them like stubble. etc,etc. Yahweh (aka Yah, Jah, Jehovah, YHWH, and other variants of the same) was the War God par excellence in the Torah (first part of "Old Testament"), appearing as a pillar of smoke or a great flame, riding at the front of battle on the legendary "Ark of the Covenant" and lending his followers invincible fighting power in battle against their enemies. Question for Muslims: How is bowing to the Kaba (a rock) placed by a man (Mohammed), different to bowing in the dojo? Would not Sura 2 apply here? "To Allah belong the East and West. So whichever way you turn, there is Allah's face. Indeed, Allah is Omnipresent and Omniscient." So, as a Muslim, all your bows are to Allah, even in the dojo. Unless you purposefully meant otherwise... in which case you might question the strength of your faith. If the external form of the ritual is the same then you have the opportunity to make it your own, as I see it. You can even direct your "Onegaishimasu" to Allah if you want... Fortunately at my dojo there are no photographs or idols we are expected to bow to and acknowledge directly. The rest, as I've said, I don't have a problem with.

This link has an interesting story of Mas Oyama and one other guy taking on a gang of seven punks. http://donbas.com/prologue.html There's even an example of how boards CAN fight back... And how breaking techniques can be useful in a real fight.

Regarding Ki or Chi or whatever you call it... my understanding is that this is really just breath control, muscle control and other control over natural body functions (perhaps adrenalin as G95 points out). My (Japanese) Karate teacher makes the point that everything in Karate is scientific and based on physics and anatomy, not "tricks". It's my experience that only westerners believe it is some sort of magical "force" they can tap to block blows and cast "chi energy balls" and stuff. Indeed, isn't this sort of new age thought considered a bit way out and dangerous when it makes it's way back to Asia. (eg Falung Gung) To show how ridiculous it can become, my fundamentalist Christian high school maths teacher believed that ALL oriental martial arts (from yoga on!) were "satanic" and that kiai shouts were actually names of demons, who would appear when called to lend supernatural strength to the artist's punch! It was almost disappointing to find out this was not true, and that I'd have to rely on my own strength in a fight...

I always thought the best defense against multiple attackers was to stand on one side of a doorway so only one could come through at a time... But that's just an old "role-playing/D&D" tactic from my childhood... I guess not always practical in reality... Hey, the wall was number 2 tactic! Kickchick, why do you feel that is bad? I appreciate the advantage of mobility, but how do you get 4 or 5 people to line up in front, rather than circling around behind once you're in the open? Hahaha Nice video. I see... back the multiple attackers against the wall, where they can't do jack and interfere with each other... nice. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-05 06:59 ]

This one is pretty good too: http://www.geocities.com/ninboninja/ The techniqies are a classic. Man, I wish MY upper block could also flip the opponent onto their back in one easy move... Guess I need to channel the void more...

I've just ordered myself a "Korean Makiwara" as shown in this link: http://www.martialartsworld.com.au/catalogue/productpics/Equipment/te68.JPG Although a small wall mount unit (good for my apartment) it seems to have a flexible "clapper" to measure punch strength and provide some flexibility and "give". I believe springs can be mounted behind the boards to increase resistance for harder punches. I like this idea as it seems to provide some of the benefits of a free standing makiwara or heavy bag with the price and convenience of the standard (useless) rigid board/pad wallmount. Has anyone else used one of these? What do you think?

I disagree that strikers have "only one chance"... I'm not a pump-action shot-gun! Shotokan and other karate styles might encourage "one hit one kill" and extremely powerful punches, but this doesn't have to mean you just launch a single all out thrusting punch as the first and only move in every fight. There's the infamous "That's Wing Chun!" video floating around where the grappler is brought down by a constant, high speed stream of strikes to face, throat, legs, etc, which never let up even as he's attempting to grapple. Isn't Shotokan and Funakoshi the originator of the "No first attack" philosophy as well? So wouldn't the true karateka wait for a "grappler" to come in and attempt some grab, thus exposing themselves to counter and attack by the karateka? So the idea that every Karateka will go wailing feet first into a fight, precariously balanced on one leg and waiting to be taken down, seems anathema to what I know of the Shotokan philosophy. Also most "real" encounters don't require a knock out/fight to the death for resolution. Most schoolyard bullies are after an easy target. Anyone who demonstrates even potential to return some of the hurt is probably going to be passed over in favor of a less resistant target. Same with muggers. A junkie in need of a fix is just after your wallet, and even the chance of getting his head kicked in will probably make him seek an easier prey. (I think someone on this forum demonstrated exactly that...) It's only hardcases that want to fight for the fun of it, and a bit of pain just makes them madder, that are really dangerous. And such people are easy to avoid in life.

Hehehe Score one for the strikers... But I do like the idea of grabbing, tripping and throwing my opponent to the ground, where he's extra vulnerable to strikes if I choose.

Hi, Although I am not studying Shotokan style, I think your points would hold valid for the style I'm doing as well, to a large degree. I want to use the Karate as a base to develop from. I'll see how good I can get with it before I start to branch out too much. Most of the beginning stuff is body conditioning and basic movements and control applicable to just about anything, I'd say. Fortunately my dojo also teaches ju-jitsu and judo, so I can take extra classes if I choose to somewhere down the road.

Not sure exactly what you mean by "on mount" but I assume you mean on to top your opponent, with them controlled. Of course, this would be the best position in a one-on-one. Assuming you can get there... But remember, if you start punching, you're probably not holding some part of me which could start striking and blocking in turn. My point was that all this nasty stuff could be raining down on you while you're attempting that grab, take down and lock. There may be "no holds barred" tournaments, but I think rarely is there "no strikes barred", for good reason... Interestingly,some of those low karate stances everyone loves to mock nowdays can make it very difficult for someone to knock you over. But of course, nowdays everyone wants to stand high and prance around like a boxer... waiting to be knocked over.

Having seen and heard a few of these things, the "grapplers" seem to just charge in, head down, for a waist grab most of the time. I can think of all sorts of nasty things this would leave the grappler open to, which I never see the "strikers" use, possibly because they are illegal. - Hammer to base of skull - Hard clap on eardrums - Double fist upwards to nose (from elbows if upper arms are grabbed) - Ripping grapplers head up by hair then palm ridge to bridge of nose - Double fist to temples - Short range knee, using hands on opponents head to force it further down. - Plus countless other eye, throat, ear and, groin, and other weak point strikes, twists, rips, etc. Need I continue... That barefoot kick that did squatt in the tournament could be a steel-capped boot or worse "on the street". Knuckles can be adorned with all sorts of nasties from key chains up. Most of these I wouldn't want to see used in even a fairly hard-core tournament. For good reason. But since everyone is talking street, street, street, I thought I'd mention some... Not to mention that a seemingly petite, nicely made up lady could, with long sharp fingernails and eagle-claw style rip your face up pretty quick if you got too close.

"Girls hate fighting..." Good point Bon. I've found they tend to hate obscenity and abusive language too, and would be embarrased/ashamed to be with someone who spoke this way in public. Whatever Angelo said to these guys can't have been too nice and could also be partly responsible for nearly reducing BT's girlfriend to tears. I remember once telling a guy an obscene joke, and his wife, on the other side of the room, heard and actually burst into tears... An extreme example maybe, but true. Bon is right. No woman would feel safe and comfortable in the situation you describe.

True. Sometimes the best defence, etc... Sometimes the best way to defend yourself may well be a swift, hard kick to somewhere painful. I don't see the point of MA as being "let yourself get beaten up" which some others seem to believe. In fact, I see the point as being to stop any harm coming to you or your loved ones. This is different to being "socially" offensive, which involves doing things like hassling innocent strangers in public until they lose their temper and start swinging.

There is a big difference between being a loyal friend, and being a "blind follower" or "lap dog". A loyal friend would try to stop his buddy from getting into stupid fights and acting the fool. As you get older, you will realize that you don't have to blindly go along with every stupid thing your friends do. You can be the voice of reason, and it will earn you more respect in the long term. Blood Talon, have you talked about this with your friend? Obviously you feel what has been happening is wrong, or you wouldn't feel so bad about it, so "sick of everything"... I'd say it's time you let him know that you think he should calm down a bit, that his actions are affecting others in a bad way. If I was in the situation you described, I would have apologized immediately to the other guys, got my friend out of there as quickly as possible (obviously drunk or something), given him a piece of my mind in private about trying to pull a stunt like that, then gone home and spent a night of passion with my girlfriend. If you don't moderate his behaviour now, one day you are both gonna wake up in the slammer with a bad head, no memory of the night before, and a long list of assault charges being read out to you by a police officer.

Have "World Series" sporting events, where teams from ALL 50 states of the world compete. Ask Australian tourists if they drove over. Call their locally elected presidential representative "The Leader of the Free World" and "The Most Powerful Man in the World". Believe democracy was invented in the USA. Call Australia a "colonial land founded by criminals", forgetting that 25% of all British convicts shipped overseas went to AMERICA. To the BRITISH COLONIES in America! Believe the history of the world begins in 1776. Have a founding father (Jefferson) who encouraged farmers everywhere to grow as much cannabis sativa as they could. Elect a president who says stuff like "The Star Wars laser shield will protect us from the Evil Empire". Elect another president who says stuff like "We, the forces of Good, must triumph over the Evil One..." Forget that in the dim mists of the past, they actually created and financed the "Evil One" in order to fight against the "Evil Empire". Consider a 7 litre V8 engine "normal"... indeed a necessity to cope with those 55MPH speed limits...and that Manhattan traffic. Consider said 7 litre engine fitted into a Chevvy Impala a "small car". And finally, the strangest, most bizarre thing about America, that could only happen there: They actually find Jay Leno and David Letterman funny!

It's the difference between offense and defense. You learn martial arts to DEFEND yourself. You should NOT be aiming to become an offensive jack-ass like the "Angelo" mentioned in the "MA cost me my girlfriend" post. In fact, part of the reason I study martial arts is to be able to defend myself against obnoxious people like that. It is about protecting yourself, your loved ones, and your property, not starting fights, beating people up and destroying things.

No offense, but this Angelo sounds like a right tosser... maybe he CAN fight, but he just sounds like an obnoxious bully to me... "Has to pick fights"? What sort of SH** is that? He may come out on top now, but one day his mouth is going to get the better of him. Do you want to be around when that happens? Do you want to be dragged down into STARTING fights and acting like a complete idiot in public. I'd question how much respect this "friend" of yours has for you, if he constantly places you in physical danger AND risk of arrest just to bolster his own ego and boost his own obviously low sense of self-worth. Saving your girl from a mugger might get you respect and admiration. This is what martial arts are designed for. Showing off by bullying innocent bystanders just makes you look like a fool, to both girls AND other guys. Think about it! No wonder your girl left you, dude!

"Yeah, it's not a 'martial art' unless it's likened to combat, otherwise it's just an art, which is what the WWF wrestling is - not that I see any beauty in it." Hahaha.... last time I saw anything of WWF (which is rare) a bunch of guys dressed like they came straight from the Sydney Gay Mardi Gras Parade were beating each other over the head with fake movie props!?!??!? WTF... Like a badly acted movie fight except without all the camera editing to make it look half decent... Shouldn't this stuff be called "Martial Forgery" in that it is supposed to look like a fight, but really the moves are designed to be harmless and ineffective! I'd say any art where you learn methods designed to control or damage an opponent as quickly and effectively as possible is a "combative" art. The rest comes down to the individual and their willingness to "make it work". Otherwise, I mean, if you spar all the time someone is going to accuse you of just doing a "sports art" which only works in the ring with rules and conditions... If you do kata and forms someone is going to say your just doing a "traditional art" which looks good but has no application... Boards don't fight back, but neither do they just break themselves, and heavy bags and wooden dummies don't fight back either... Nor would I ever want to use my "rip out your throat and crush your windpipe" move on a sparring partner... but in real life if my own was threatened, that is another story. I think it is important to use a wide variety of training methods to become effective. Each lets you perfect a different aspect of your art, but has weaknesses that must be remedied by other forms of training. For example, if you spar, do you use gloves (often compulsory)... If so, how is this affecting the bare-knuckled fist you'll be forced to use "on the street"? Can you still hit the same, or will you hurt yourself instead? Do you have some deadly, way out moves you can't inflict on a sparing partnet? Perhaps something like kata will give you a chance to practise them in some sort of context? And so on...every form of training there is will help some areas of your fighting skill, but do little for others. I'd say that to be "combative" you must have a broad training regime, and know the reason/proper use/effectiveness of all your moves. I mean, even a basic punch can be a weak, flat fisted hit to the ribs, or with subtle adjustments, a hard knuckle strike to the solar plexus. An ignorant observer could hardly tell the difference. The difference is all in the artist, not what system they studied. Like they say about cetain other, ahem, "arts", it's not what you've got, but how you use it.