Taikudo-ka

Anyone care to comment on/discuss some of the differences between the original Toude-Jutsu (sometimes called Karate-Jutsu) and Karate-Do (Chinese Hand Arts vs Empty Hand Way)? I've heard the original Okinawan hand arts only rotated the punch about 45 deg from vertical, rather than the full 90 deg spinning punch in Karate-Do. This allowed the wrist to absorb the shock better, thus allowing a harder hit. Any others?

Hahaha "back in the day" we used to make shuriken by cutting them out of a piece of heavy sheet metal, then sharpening the edge with a knife sharpening stone. Kids with access to the metalwork/indutrial arts rooms could make much better stars than my own hand cut and sharpened ones... Of course, this was before they were declared illegal here, and now they can't be bought or imported at all. Most of the traditional ones I've seen on the web look like they're cast from molten metal to me, then sharpened later... could be wrong though. In any case I don't see why they couldn't be cut and sharpened from appropriate sheet metal, with some basic hardware store machinery. Hmm... when I was young I used to have a thing for weapons, particularly ancient and "fantastic" types (never guns or bombs). Some of the things I remember making were flails (2 different types, one with a heavy duty triple chain, another lighter triple chain with polished "natural" wood, leather bound hilt, copper bands with tolkien style dwarven runes), knife (pretty bodgy with a bamboo handle), shuriken, caveman style club with stone bound to top of branch, leather sling (traditional style with thong and rock in pouch, swung around and released - man this thing could hurl a rock!), and of course the bo/quarterstaff (aka broomhandle). I don't have any of this stuff now, and some of them are probably banned, but every now and then I walk through a hardware store and let my imagination run riot... some weapons can be made SO easily, from simple, ready made items.

Well Krav Maga is an Israeli army self-defense system which is sometimes taught as a "civilian" martial arts system. I'm sure a search on amazon or similar would produce plenty of books and videos claiming to be from "military types"... but personally I'd be a bit dubious of this sort of thing... why is this "expert" no longer in the military and why is he teaching this stuff openly... probably just to make a buck, perhaps he was dishonourably discharged for being no good, and has no military pension or anything. Interestingly, my sensei was in the Japanese army, but he just teaches karate... I get the idea that many military types do some traditional martial art, but more for sport and physical training, rather than something to use in the field. The army is about hiding in bushes and shooting people, or better yet aiming a guided missile on a video screen from several miles away. If someone gets too close, you stab them with your bayonet, you don't duke it out, Rambo style...

Hehe Yeah this is all true... I think some people just want to "buy" fitness or strength, like they'd buy a coke, and approach gym membership this way... I guess when it doesn't work they try to "buy" a little extra training in the form of steroids or whatever... Nothing beats hard work and determination. Some people can't "work out" without the latest trendy equipment and gear and a lot of hoo-ha. Some people will spend hours just hitting a stone around with a stick or something, and end up famous sports heroes. Or run 20 miles each day to school and back, barefoot, and end up famous marathon runners.

Hahaha Anar Chy Jutsu! And so easy to learn and apply. A beginner only needs three basic moves - grabbing the head, knee to the face (or groin) and kicking the opponent when down. All kicks are kept to no more than 3-4 inches off the ground... no need for any "Jackie Chan Bollocks". Advanced grades could add things like the headbutt and the coathanger, proper positioning of spiked wristbands for maximum affect when blocking, and weapons like the keyring, the chain, the crow-bar, the baseball bat, the machette, and of course the length of iron piping. A true master would know the power of kiais like "wot are you lookin at" and "i'll have you, ya f***er". Also ancient techniques for increasing the bodies aggression and pain threshold, such as getting wasted on speed and alcohol...

You know a friend of mine did Shotokan some time back, and was actually told to use the keys in the hand trick by his sensei. The same teacher later ended up in jail for killing a guy in a brawl. Thus bringing an end to his dojo and, if nothing else, proving the "effectiveness" of Shotokan in "real life".

Haha Has anyone seen Ali G, where, impersonating the ever smiling Khazakstani tourist, he severely takes the mickey out of a group of British fox hunters... getting them to agree that killing a little animal makes them feel like "real men" and stuff... But then he does "do" the protesters nearby too... "yes, I love animals... in my country we love animals very much... yes, I see in Britian dogs with little coats, yes, very cute, in my country we like to dress up animals too, yes, and do you, you know, how you say, make them do a little dance... yes, no... I like to see them dance... you know, cute... if they dont... we just, ah, you know... how you say...ahhh... you know... with a stick... no??? ohh!" :weirdlook:

Well said pizzaboy. Turn up the training heat... try to draw inner confidence from your training, so you don't project the image of someone it's easy to push against a wall and demand sunglasses, or money, or whatever. Not that you want to swagger around like Rambo, just a quiet acknowledgement to yourself of the technique you possess and the training you've done. But then from what you say, maybe he just has some beef with the "martial arts" or perhaps he's even secretely jealous of the training you're doing? I agree with Chris that maybe asking him to train with you for a while is a good idea. If he's a "tough guy" maybe you could challenge him to see if he can hack the discipline required for even the basic training... Hehe it might give him a positive outlet for his aggression. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-11 11:57 ]

You know, with all this "my art can beat yours" stuff flying around, maybe someone should start the "hardcore punk" martial arts school. You learn how to fight like a rough Glasgow/East End rude boy with absolutely no concept of the Queensbury Rules... Could be effective in NHB/UFC

Sparring gets you used to facing a real, live, thinking opponent, who might do unexpected things. You learn how to react to sudden moves, and also to watch how a person moves when they are going to perform certain techniques. So if you learn how your opponent moves as he's getting ready to punch, you can anticipate that and set up a defense. Also you learn to strike accurately at a human body, which is trying to move and counter, rather than just a still dummy or bag. Of course, sparring is a watered down version of a real self defense situation. There's always lots of things you could do to a real attacker that you wouldn't do in a friendly sparring session. But then kata can always hide nasty moves... I'd say sparring would be vital for anyone fighting one-on-one competition in a ring, of course.

Haha Yeah, I always thought they just released a pre-reared fox... Pretty dodgy really, and totally cruel and wasteful. Isn't there some ethical conflict with Prince Charles taking part in this sort of thing? Apart from being the future head of the Church of England, isn't he a patron of the RSPCA or something?

Haha nothing like that in Aussie Rules (sorry AFL). Maybe in Rugby...

I'd say try and keep the peace. But if he does come at you again, unprovoked, let him have everything you've got. When I was at school jerks like this were always a major problem... I was too much of a pacifist to stand up for myself, and for my friends as well. In hindsight I wish I'd stuck up for my rights a bit more, because teachers or adults rarely will. But I couldn't fight for s**t normally, and had no training. I'd only fight if I got was driven totally crazy, then I just went beserk, I mean full on "ye olde norse beserker warrior" balistic... the first time I ended up just circling around screaming through a red haze and attacking anyone who came near, after fighting off about 6-8 other kids who'd jumped on me and nearly choked/crushed me unconscious. I'd say martial arts is good for avoiding both the extremes outlined here. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-11 09:59 ]

Hmm Well, I don't see any way you could justify hunting an animal for fun. (Or endangered animals for parts, furs) On the other hand, I don't see how you could logically object to any hunting for food... that would almost have to constitute a right of any living creature, and is no worse than farming, really. Likewise use of furs, leathers, and so on from food animals is actually good conservation of resources. Sometimes it can even be beneficial for the environment... hunting rabbits for food and furs in Australia would do the local flora and fauna a lot of good.

Err... how about innocent until proven guilty, and you give him a fair trial according to standard international law. See, if this is a "war" you're obliged to follow the Geneva convention, and treat combatants on the other side as prisonersof war, etc. If you see it as a "criminal" act, then you're obliged to asssume innocence until PROVEN guilty, and follow standard legal procedure. OR, you can say that it's criminal, then declare it a war, then decide later that this is a "special case" and therefore "standard procedure" doesn't have to be followed, these people are neither criminals nor prisoners of war, therefore not deserving of the rights of either... they are... da dah... "terrorists". Also forget about searching the Kuran for a Sura that says "Kill Americans"...it's not there. The reason for these conflicts are almost totally political. The religion side of this whole thing is largely a smokescreen weaved by some of the players to get people onside. I've met many Arabs, Iranians and Afghanis, and rarely is there any love lost for "Israel" or "Jews". But these hostilities are politically motivated. The history of the area is damned complex and almost impossible for anyone, let alone foreigners, to properly comprehend. Let's just say the good ole USA has stepped into a war that's been going on and off for a good few thousand years... The only real major theological difference between Judaism and Islam, is that Islam dares recognize the heretic blasphemer Jesus the Nazarite as a true holy prophet, equal of Moses or Abraham. Of course, this same belief manages to put them on the wrong side of Christians everywhere, for refusing to accept that the same Jesus is really God Himself made flesh on Earth, and daring to say he is just a very holy, but otherwise normal man... No wonder the guy said he came to bring "not peace, but a sword!"

"The reson you dont see the fancy kicks in real mauy thai fights is not cos they dont exsist, but because they is not often a time where kicks like that can be used efectivly , Mauy thai is about as real to fighting as you can get, apart from ufc etc. where as arts like karate incorperate unrealistic moves witch confuse the practitoner and stop them using the moves that work." Eh??? Muay Thai incorporates fancy, "unrealisitc" stuff, but Muay Thai fighters are smart enough only use the effective stuff in the ring. Karate incorporates fancy, "unrealistic" stuff, but Karateka are unable to figure out the difference between this and what works, and just become confused in a fight...?!? Is your opinion of the average karateka's intelligence that low?

That's harsh!! I bet they wish they'd stayed home and practised kata instead...

Hahaha... I thought you were Yoda of England (intl north west), not Yoda of Dagobah?

I like to train my hearing, because I'm also into music, and I think that of all senses other than sight, hearing would be the most useful in a fight. I also protect it by not listening to stuff TOO loud... hahaha you know "boom box cars" are said to actually be able to cause internal damage, in addition to deafness... my sister's friend actually siffered a bleeding nose in some guy's car because the stereo was so loud, and they were both in the back, right beside it. That CAN'T be good for you... Must be pretty distruptive of the ol' Ki.

It occured to me after a lengthly previous post, that all unarmed martial arts could be placed on a scale in relation to how they handle grappling and striking. - Pure Striking Totally focused on forms of striking an opponent (any form of punch, kick, elbow, knee and/or headbutt). Holds, joint locks, and other wrestling type moves are not considered part of the art. Boxing, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, some sport Karates. - Striking with minor grappling Focus mainly on forms of striking an opponent, however advanced students begin to add forms of tripping, joint locks, foot sweeps, armbars and other grappling type techniques, mainly as a way of un-balancing an opponent to render them vulnerable to further strikes. Karate, particularly something like Wado-Ryu, Kung Fu. - Grappling with minor striking Focus mainly on locks, take-downs, chokes and holds but utilizing striking, generally as a way to stun or un-balance an opponent before attempting a grapple, or as a way of disabling them after they're down. Ju-Jitsu, Maybe some Kung-Fus? - Pure Grappling Focussed almost totally on grappling and wrestling moves. Striking the opponent is generally not considered a part of the art. Moves may still be designed to be harmful or incapacitating, or may simply immobalize an attacker. Sometimes specifically designed to be "non-harmful" like Aikido. There's also Judo and Greco-Roman Wrestling. I'd like to see where you think your art would fit, perhaps build up a table. In theory, there should be a "Striking & Grappling" category in the middle for arts that place equal emphasis on both, but I couldn't actually think of any. If anyone knows of such an art, feel free to add it. This might at least let people see where they fit in the great "grappling vs striking" debate that occupies so many threads...

Yes... having a teacher that claims to have been taught by Yoda is also a bad sign... Particularly if he got his black belt in less than a year! Why that slimy little green *&$#%* Particularly since he made Luke a "master" in his so called "art" before his buddies on the Falcon even had time to catch a meal or a "bathroom stop".

Good points Dragonstyle... Probably the most obvious distinction is between striking arts (punching, kicking, possibly knees, elbows and more), and grappling arts (throws, take-downs, joint locks, etc). Most arts will include some degree of both, but emphasize primarily one or the other. Another thing to look at is the country of origin, which tends to influence the way the art is taught, terminology used, uniforms, etc. Kung Fu, for example, is a Chinese term which refers to "hard work" and covers a huge range of different styles. Japanese arts are generally known as "jitsu" (arts) or "do" (way). "Jitsus" are generally original Japanese samurai warrior arts or street self defense arts, like Ken-Jitsu, or Ju-Jitsu, and "dos" are generally later, more sports oriented arts like Kendo and Judo. Other arts come from Thailand, Phillipines, India, Israel, Russia, Brazil, to name a few. Some arts, like boxing or mauy thai, you pretty much train for the ring and "prize fighting" full time. Others, like karate, will focus more on developing your individual skill, with competition optional. In fact, some traditional karate schools never even spar at all... But then some spar a lot, and encourage competition, and even participate in full-contact karate and multiple martial arts. Some are completely "soft" and focus on slow, precise movements, balance, internal well-being and spiritual growth. This typifies the "internal" Kung Fu practised by some Chinese schools. Heres a range of things to look at: Karate - Okinawan/Japanese striking art. Emphasized power, speed, accuracy, with short quick moves. Some schools have breaking boards and bricks as power training, some lots of kata. Ju-Jitsu - Japanese grappling/striking arts, emphasizing joint locks, take-downs, strikes to disable and unbalance an opponent, generally to vulnerable points, chokes, plus sometime sweapons at higher grades. Judo - a more sporting evolution of Ju-Jitsu, emphasizing throws, locks, take downs, holds. "Nastier" elements of ju-jitsu removed but more effective in "safe" competition. Aikido - similar to judo, but emphasising more the spiritual and non-aggresive side of the art. Like judo, aims to utilize an aggresors force against them, or to neutralize it. Tae Kwon Do - Korean brother of Japanese karate. More emphasis on advanced leg techniques and high kicks. Very sports/competition oriented. Wing Chun - Chinese Kung Fu style, said to have been developed by a woman watching a white crane fight. Emphasizes very fast striking to vulnerable points and quick, fluid movements. Bruce Lee's original style. Shaolin Kempo (Monk Fist Boxing) - Hard Kung Fu style emphasizing fast, hard strikes, punches, vital point striking, taking down an off balance opponent, eg with leg sweeps, grappling, locks. A forefather of Okinawan karate. Tai Chi - Soft, internal Kung Fu style emphasizing slow, circular movement, breathing, meditation, balance and spiritual growth. Takes a very long time to master, but in theory a devastating martial art, although rarely taught or practised as such... Muay Thai - Thai Kickboxing/"street fighting". A striking art emphasizing low kicks, knees, elbows, punching and hard striking generally. Considered relatively fast to learn and the training is generally hard fight training for full contact competition. (similar to boxing... competitors even wear boxing style shorts) Brazilian Ju-Jitsu - offshoot/evolution of Japanese Ju-Jitsu developed by a Brazilian Ju-Jitsu school (Gracie JuJitsu). Has proven effective in open competition. Krav Maga - Self defense system based on the Israeli army training system. I hope this is enought to give you a brief overview of the sort of thing that's out there, particularly things you might hear discussed on this board. Also hope I haven't over-generalized anyone's art too much... Also remember that within some of these styles there are bound to be lots of differing schools. Apart from the hundreds of Kung-Fu styles, Karate has produced a fair share of styles too - Shotokan, Wado-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Kyokushin, Shi-To-Ryu, plus many minor ones, all emphasizing slightly different things. Research what takes your interest on the web. Attend and watch some different classes if you want. Then join something that interests you, and that you'd be willing to stick at for a while. Beware offers to make you a "lethal combat machine in 6 months" because most things take longer than that to master.

Hehehe Yes I have done some grappling in my time. I even did some greco-roman wrestling in high school, and have grappled opponents in "friendly sparring" and "schoolyard fights". But I do admit that against a skilled grappler, I'll probably be taken down (at least with my current skill level). I have a big respect for all ju-jitsu styles, even ninjitsu, cause I have had that demonatrated on me once... Hehehe I was a typical arrogant high school kid, checking out this "ninja" thing. I was the kid everyone hates to teach, who came in for one lesson and fought every technique and demonstration... and ended up flat on my back, unable to move, with something pressed heavily across my windpipe every time... But then the art I'm studying incorporates both karate and ju-jitsu techniques, so in theory should be an interesting path, yeah?

I've heard they all end in similar places, but of course I'm nowhere near "there" yet... I've also noticed some similarities with the basics, even in some moves between karate and tai chi! But how much of the road on the way is dictated by the style, and how much by the student?

I know there has been debate before about validity of belts in martial arts, but consider, it could be worse... Imagine if instead of the current ranking/testing system based on ability, martial arts were organized along the lines of academic schools. Classes would be largely aged based, with a test only once every year. Unless you do unbelievably badly in all the test areas, you will move up a grade. Conversely, no matter how skilled you are, there is almost no chance of moving up until the year passes. Furthermore, you can only enrol at the start of each year. You have only one teacher and no assistants or senior students for a whole class of 30 or more. This teacher has been a shodan (or less) for the past twenty years, and only ever teaches the same moves and katas each year. Next year a new teacher who only teaches that years stuff takes over... Occassionally you'll get a new shodan, who's never taught a class before, and they'll take the whole class, alone, for the year... Suddenly Karate seems a lot more flexible and practical in its teaching methods.