Taikudo-ka

I will confess to having pushed the button at pedestrian traffic crossings with a round-house kick. (Only when no-one else was around.)

Gracie JJ, I'd completely disagree. In a situation like this the best thing to do is a kick to the knee, followed by an open palm strike to the nasal bridge. You don't wanna grapple and go to the ground on the golf course - the guys buddies could start laying into you with clubs... that number 3 wood driver, ouch!! Unfortunately, the "sport", more correctly "do" of golf flatly refuses to allow or even acknowledge this sort of realistic self defense training. The entire objective of competition golf has become to get a small white ball into a 2" hole in the ground about half a mile away, using only raw power of your bare... $500 signature titanium alloy no. 1 driver... and about 9 other clubs like it. If you don't master this way, expect to spend a lot of time lugging a heavy bag around long grass looking for a small white ball you saw go "a few hundred meters that-a-way, bounce off a tree, then disappear", about 100-200 times a so called "game".

"This is a magic mirror. You must say something true. And if it's true, your wish will come true. If it's not true, you will disappear." Erm...??? I think in English this is called a tautology. In any case, if your "wish" only comes "true" if it is already "true", what exactly is this piece of junk mirror offering?

Having re-read this thread I would suggest all the "kata is useless" advocates read the links I posted under "Karates Grappling Methods - Iain Abernethy". In contrast to saying "75%" of a kata is useless, he insists that absolutely nothing is useless. (But it IS often supposed to look that way at a quick glance) Even that opening gesture that crops up with an open hand pushed against/wrapped around a fist has a definite purpose. In constrast to being useless in a real fight, it is actually in the kata that all the true street self defense moves are contained. Iain gave me the most advanced view yet of kata... not a pretty dance for exercise (although it does this well), not just a silly "practise fight" where you dispatch opponents with double punches and head kicks(though it looks cool in movies), but a database of street defense techniques covering the most effective moves of a particular style, application, or just some veteran warriors catalog of favorite, time proven methods. But as you can imagine, these could be fairly complex, so without the key to "extract" the moves and apply them properly, they remain useless or mis-interpreted.

Actually this could start a whole line of "What was the difference between the American and Russian space program?" type jokes. i.e. America - spent millions developing special freeze dried foods, meals in a tube and space food sticks. Russia - packed a few kranskies and some rye bread and was right to go.

Use once of those pencil sharpeners with a cannister attached to catch the savings. Funds now remaining 11.998 billion dollars. Welcome to the Russian space program. Sending a satellite around the moon but don't have a transmitter to track it? No problem, just leak the information to the British astronomers, sit back, then read all about how successful you were in the British press next morning... plus you get free international propoganda. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-19 08:42 ]

I have heard that each kata can be looked upon as a compressed database of techniques for a particular style, or fighting application. A master of old would spend hours compiling all the moves required for their most effective techniques into a kata so they could be practised, and taught and passed on. Of course, without understanding how to "uncompress" or extract the techniques from the kata, it would be nothing but exercise. To make things harder, most kata have been deliberately "encrypted" as well, so that an obvious surface application can conceal a deeper, more effective technique. But in theory, an entire fighting style could be condensed into a kata, or a small set of katas. Hehe I looked at some BJJ stuff, and sure enough, there was a guard, just like a proper horse stance, but of course on the back... very interesting.

I'd say martial arts is a lot more balanced than many sports like tennis, squash, golf, javelin or discus throwing. At least a good martial artist is working both sides of their body. I think sitting in a chair all day and not moving is most likely to cause arthritis. Physical activity actually strengthens joints, as long as its done sensibly, not destructively. (And you consume enough calcium.)

Hehe back in the day kids could order this stuff off the back of "Ninja Today" or whatever it was... We had no internet and it didn't stop us from making all sorts of crazy stuff. M'Kay Kiddies, listen up... this stuff is the relic of a bygone era, OK. It is probably illegal in your area... like absinthe, cocaine in coca-cola, and cigarettes to cure your asthma and stomach troubles, they are probably no longer recommended for consumption by anyone anywhere.

On second thoughts, if you were going for some sort of special scholarship to an otherwise expensive college, well... those sort of people usually want to see a "team player" attitude and so on... I know it's hard for us "alone against an army" martial artists to accept/enjoy this stuff sometimes, but nevertheless... I'd say stuff like team sports (i.e football, sigh...) is definitely what they'd hope to see. I dunno, but perhaps martial arts could even be seen as a "loner" or "violent" activity, even if it is a misconception. But then, they might like the idea of discipline and confidence it instills? Who knows?

Hehe I used to play golf and the more I played the more I hated it... could you incorporate less action into a larger, more expensive playing field? I think not... I thought football was the "college sport" In Australia universities don't give a toss for anything except academic performance. (i.e high test marks) Private colleges will take anyone willing to pay the fees, although some background in the course subjects is helpful. Universities will also let you take masters degrees and stuff if you already have a few years experience working in a particular industry.

How would you describe them? "controlling arts"? i.e to control an opponent through an armbar or wristlock or like? I guess I was using "grappling" to refer to any form of grabbing, twisting techniques whether they be applied standing or on the ground. To me, if you grab someones wrist, lock a joint and twist to break the arm, then spin then around with them in a headlock, you are grappling, even if you're still standing up. Basically, any sort of sustained close-fighting stuff that wouldn't be allowed in a boxing/kick boxing/TKD/MT type competition. But I see what you mean. Personally I'd call them "grappling" (locks, arm-bars) and "wrestling" (on the ground, close quarters, getting "mount", etc) Is there a more official term?

Just as a follow up to this, I found a number of articles written by Iain, including some from the book, for example the article on "real applications". http://www.shotokankata.com/Articles/iain_abernethy.htm This guy covers a lot of the stuff we've all been discussing on this forum. If you think karate is just a watered down kids version of sport kick-boxing, he will make you think again. This has made me look at my art with a new sense of potential.

Try this site: http://www.shotokankata.com/ Though you have to pay ten pounds sterling to join. Also read the guest articles. There are some great articles on bunkai at this link: http://www.shotokankata.com/Articles/iain_abernethy.htm

I just got hold of a book called "Understanding Kata & Bunkai - Karate's Grappling Methods", by Iain Abernethy. The book includes some principals of kata application, then many photos showing the standard forms and moves from some kata, gives the "easy explanation" bunkai, then shows how these moves can actually be hard-core street defense techniques for things like dumping opponents on their head, breaking their arm or elbow joint, applying joint locks followed by nasty blows, etc. I was wondering if anyone else had read this book, and what they thought of it. Are his bunkai getting back to the heart of original karate-jutsu? Does anyone here teach this stuff?

What do you think? I knew the basics about Ginchin Funakoshi, but recently read his autobiography, "Karate-Do - My Way of Life". A very interesting look at the mind behind Shotokan Karate, and the man largely responsible for popularizing and promoting Karate in the 20th century. However, some interesting points emerge: - Funakoshi practised karate mainly to promote his health - He was only ever taught kata by his teachers. - He cheerfully confesses to changing kata around to make them easier for schoolchildren to learn. (also less effective) - He cheerfully confesses that the "karate" as practised and taught "today" (i.e. mid 1950s) is completely different from the karate he was taught himself in Okinawa. - Although such an arch conservative that by the end of his life his old fashioned habits and ideas have crossed the line from "conservative" to "severely eccentric" (something even he acknowledges), his one true love and tradition - karate - he is happy to change, and even invent new "traditions" or borrow things from other sports, like Judo. He is happy to go so far as to change the whole emphasis from a secret street self-defense system into a public sport, and to change the "spelling" of the word, despite the outcry this causes from almost everyone. - He only confesses to being involved in one "real" combative incident in his entire life, at age 80... and he defeats the assailant by grabbing his testicles and twisting. (that's it) - Although loathe to use karate against real assailants, he has no problems using it to subdue school children to forcibly shave their top-knots. So was he really beneficial for karate? Did he even teach "karate", as his own teachers would have recognized? He himself seems to think not... So what are Shotokan students, in particular, learning? Just something made up by an old school teacher for sport? I'd like to think things aren't quite that bad...

When you learn bunkai, do you learn the "Funakoshi sports" application, or the hard-core "traditional street-defense" application? Having seen both demonstrated from the same move, it's impossible to mistake the two. One is passed off as simple blocks and strikes, and often has a hand or body part in some position without much reason other than aesthetics... the other involves lots of joint locks, takedowns, grabbing the opponent, much more vicious blows and movements, and NO kata move is wasted or "for looks".

"So in conclusion, many 'new', or 'modern' styles of karate dont practise kata" I'm just wondering... did the original "okinawa-te" have kata? OR was it something that was imported from China, and incorporated into "China Hand". Sumo would be a Japanese martial art without kata... not karate but since people are mentioning boxing and like...

In Australia I think most places are about $50 - $100 per month (which is only $25-$50 US). I pay $70. I've seen a big Wing-Chun Academy in Chinatown in Sydney which charges $99 or so per month. Other places are less. There is a Goju school run by Merv Oakley, who was a direct student of Gogen Yamaguchi, which only charges about $60 per month. (US$30)

Actually, my main thing is not to get hit, rather than being afraid... I copped a nice round-house to the head today, also a completely unexpected roundhouse punch from a black-belt (Same location)... At least we pad up for the full contact How do you Muay Thai guys spar? I'm assuming full contact, but do you wear equipment? helmet? pads? gloves? What is the go?

Na... Not at once He did, I think, 100 per day for three days, or thereabouts. Each fight is in sequence, he didn't actually have to "win" each one, just complete it and carry on... Perhaps someone can enlighten us on the exact rules of this, i.e what constitutes a "fight" and a "win"?

Considering these points you've made: - More Fighing style than sport - Some techniques that would be able to be applied in the real world if needs be. - a more combatative style with less emphesis on the whole mind, body, soul mumbo jumbo. - but I want to learn a style that uses open hands and joint locks, or whatever you call them. I'd suggest Ju-Jutsu as the closest match, from what I understand. The other styles you've listed as being available are either largely striking styles, or will emphasise a lot of spiritual development, like Aikido. Also, being a "jutsu" it has more emphasis on the practical, rather than "life-development". Also, ju-jutsu was originally used by Japanese army, police, etc... I have a book which even demostrates things like "take down and search" as part of ju-jutsu technique!

Although I don't do Kyokushin personally, I know it was founded by Mas Oyama, who was a renowned "tough" and street fighter in his younger days, so I'd imagine it'd be quite effective and practical. I understand Kyokushin puts more emphasis on breaks and power technique than some other schools.

" but I think it's ridiculous to think that any form of martial art that teaches you how to block, kick, punch, etc. would be useless in a situation where you needed to defend yourself. " Yeah... too true... I like the clone comparison from 360roundhouse... I think the word "useless" is bandied about too much. Hehe, according to some people on this board, the trained clone would actually be "worse off". I think some people confuse real life with Van-Damme's "Blood-Sport"... As I've said before, in real life an assailant is more likely a junkie after your wallet than a trained, hardcore martial artist wanting to fight to the death. In theory, we should never have to worry about that happening, right, because no martial artist should ever be trying to start fights with strangers for no reason, right? )

Well maybe Amazon.com has books or videos on Krav Maga. That's probably the most well known/publicized military system. Try a search there, or Barnes & Noble, perhaps some smaller martial arts online stores.