Taikudo-ka

Actually if you want an analogy, I think music is possibly the best one. What's more important - the musician or the instrument. Well, at first glance, obviously the musician. They choose what notes are played, how, when, etc. A good musician can also make a dodgy intrument sound relatively good, whereas a person with no musical skill won't make a good sound, even with a special edition Gibson and a Marshall valve amp stack. So why do we even need special instruments? Why are music shops stocked with 101 different guitars, all with slightly different sounds. Why are there so many different types of instruments - guitars, cellos, other strings, pianos, keyboards, drums, trumpets, saxaphones, flutes, gongs, marimbas, etc, etc, plus the host of effects and processors to make them sound different. Why are there so many musical styles. If there are only twelve notes, and there's really no such thing as a "wrong" note, why so much musical theory, scales, modes, chords, harmony theory, modal theory, diatoic theory, atonal theory, Indian ragas and all the other structures and "rules" and systems. And if the guys are sliding and bending the pitch around so much anyway, why is there even a need for a "blues" scale? Well, everyone needs a base. Most self taught musicians don't really discover anything new. They just spend a lot of time re-discovering the blues and natural minor scales. Learning a "school" or "style" allows you to quickly absorb stuff that people have already discoverd, systemized, and developed to a high degree. You can learn a lot of basic principles and ideas that might take a long time to figure out yourself. However, with everyone's different taste and approach to what sounds good, as well as different technical ability, a wide range of styles develop, all with different approaches to making music, and what sounds are important where. There are many ways to play the "same" chord, just as there are many ways to take down the same opponent. Style is just the way you go about doing it. As far as needing lots of instruments, well, most musicians have long since progressed from banging simple rocks and sticks together. (Just as most martial artists want to progress past the immediately obvious jab punch and front kick.) Of course, the percussive effect of banging two objects together is still effectively applied to most music, and can be a whole art in itself, with all sorts of wild "combos". It's just that most people want to spice things up with "extra" sounds to make it more interesting. Hence the proliferation of styles and instruments, both in music and martial arts. And learning a commercially available instrument from a teacher allows a musician to progress faster and sound better than sitting in their garage building their own gear and trying to re-invent everything themselves. However, arguing about what style is superior seems a bit like arguing over what instrument or music style is better... What's best - classical, jazz, rock, hip-hip? Violin, trumpet, guitar, beat box? Who is a better musician - Beethoven, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix or The RZA? Most people would answer these questions based on personal taste, without realizing that each has a particular talent and style which the other three would probably fail if they tried to copy. Now, could any of these artists achieved what they did if all they had were sticks and stones? Not really... Each relied on some musical technology and styles around at the time to build their art from. But was it the instrument that made them great? No...in many cases the "chosen" instrument presented its own limits and challenges. What makes them all great is the way they mastered their chosen instrument and art and use it to express their ideas, turning weaknesses into strengths and "pushing the envelope" in what was considered possible. Likewise with martial arts styles.

Like most things, the truth is always somewhere in the middle. What goes into the fight is a combination of natural skill AND training. The training could take many forms, and of course not all activities are necessarily as effective as each other. However, most arts combine a range of training activities, generally tested over time, such that overall some benefit must accrue. Each path ultimately leads to the same destination, but the route taken is different, hence the experience gained along the way is different. The shorter road might get you there quicker, but the long road may provide a more interesting and varied experience. Do you want the slow, scenic tour into the true heartland, or do you need to rush down the free-way to meet an appointment at the other end, like a competition fight at a certain time? However, what each person learns from the journey is up to them. The fool sent on the scenic route will simply report back that it was too long, winding, and poorly signposted, and he got lost on the way. The beauty of the martial arts is that on one hand, it can be a totally objective science, analysing body structure, physics of strikes, leverage and angles for throws, measuring the force of a punch, etc. On the other hand, it is also totally subjective and open to an endless list of variables and ideas. There are SO many different ways to stop, control, injure, main, hurt, throw, choke or otherwise incapacitate a person that no-one can know EVERYTHING. Also, the reactions of the other person can be unpredictable, and you never know exactly what they are going to do.

I suppose it could be worse. One could be a traditional greco-roman wrestler in this WWF professional "wrestling" world. But really, there's no need for traditional martial arts to go down that path... if people want just want to dance and exercise and wear glitzy outfits they should do some sort of dance program. Particularly the guys... dance schools of all styles are desperate for male dance partners. (Plus think of all the women you'd meet!) Hehe anyway a "stars and stripes" gi would get you automatically disqualified over here. According to Australian Karate Federation competition rules, only a plain white gi is acceptable for competition, including kata.

- "Using your own example - imagine Bruce Lee and Arnold Schwarzenegger...who do you think would win out of those two? (Or people or similar height, weight, training and strength)" Bruce Lee by a long margin. He was a highly trained martial arts machine, able to deliver lightning fast blows with awesome force and precision. Arnie is just an aging pin-up boy who once pumped a lot of iron and looked buff, but nowdays has a penchant for expensive cigars, jet planes, and the good life. What could he actually do in a real fight, apart from present a bigger target to Bruce? BTW, Shotokan was developed by guys who were quite small and thin. Funakoshi was only about 5' or so, maybe 120lbs... In a "big guy" vs "little guy" match I think the little guy would have more of a chance with a striking art like shotokan, than some of the other suggestions made like judo or jujitsu. The prob is when it comes to grappling, the big muscles and body weight matters more, and allows the big guy to "power" through the techniques without needing much technique. Then imagine throwing a guy twice your weight...not impossible, but you'd have to be good! NO forcing your way through. On the other hand, a small guy CAN still hit hard enough to do some damage. A big guys eyes, groin, throat, etc, are still just as soft and easily damaged. And all the strength won't help if you can't actually hit your opponent...

Sheesh... you guys have this sort of thing in America? No wonder people give karate a bad name. Stars and Stripes gis? Elvis outfits? Disco and country music? The "Elvis Pelvis Shake"? Surely you guys are talking about some weird aerobics workout meets teen talent quest, right? Not martial arts, right? Surely you don't call this "karate" in the US?

" lets say a shotokan man that been takin it for 22 years, and a thai boxer, with the same two yrs. who would win in a full contact match" Not this silly argument again... I think after 22 years of Shotokan you should have learnt SOMETHING. Many of the high ranking students (sempeis) at my dojo are quite familiar with Muay Thai's "brutal" moves and plenty of other fun stuff that's illegal in "normal" karate tournaments... I think their IS a steeper learning curve with any style of karate. Anyone can learnt a few "lethal" moves and dirty tricks in a short time that will give them the upper hand against an inexperienced fighter. But, as G95 mentioned, training and repeating those basic moves for a long time DOES make them into a very fast, reflexive action, with precision that can only be gained in time. Also, I think understanding the subtleties of combat is something that will only come with time and practise. The little things that give an opponent away, how to anticipate their actions, look for weaknesses in their defense, psych them out, and tire them out without wasting energy yourself. Age and treachery over youth and brash strength.

Can I suggest organized by language, at least. The best way would be with a PHP script, and forms automating entry to a file. Time and effort to build, but members could then post away without any further maintenance or manually updating the thing. It would also help keep it all organized and sorted. It'd be a job to get it all sorted, though...

I'll have to give the "kata in the waves" a go this coming summer. Meanwhile, does anyone, in the ultimate piece of irony, have a proudly unwashed belt with the washing instructions label still unashamedly attached?

"I think G95champ said it pretty well relating it to learning to write" Okay, so I'm a native English speaker, who can read and write to an advanced level. I've been writing for a long time, do it instinctively, and my handwriting IS legible. But is it really good? No... its often sloppy, characters are badly formed, and I have a bad habit of going over them again, which only ever makes them less legible. Many people, once they lapse ito their "natural" handwriting style, only get worse and less legible, not better - the proverbial "doctor's writing". How would I improve my handwriting? By continuing to practise "as I write normally"? No - I've been doing that for years. I'm not going to get better at writing just by doing more of it, at this stage of my life. I'd have to start again, very slowly, to master a better script, and consciously trying to form each letter properly, write smoothly, without indicisive strokes or blotches caused by hesitation. I'd be writing a lot slower for a while, with care that I don't lapse back into my old scrawl in a rush.

I think the world of wrestling carries a chilling warning for all serious martial artists. Greco-Roman wrestling was the original western grappling art, a serious martial art practised by soldiers and athletes. Along the line this evolved into the WWF circus that most people associate with wrestling nowdays. Imagine being a serious Greco-Roman wrestler today, having to explain to every Joe Blow you meet that your art has nothing to do with Hulk Hogan or the flying circus act that is the WWF, performed by paid actors for the entertainment of the viewers everywhere. As much as I like greco-roman wrestling, this point alone is enough to put me off practising it seriously... Now imagine in twenty years time, having to explain to everyone that the karate, or kickboxing, or Wing Chun that you practise(d) has nothing to with the antics of some clown in a rainbow gi he saw leaping about the ring on cable TV, clobbering his opponent with folding chairs and baseball bats while screaming the word "keeyaar!"

I think the world of wrestling carries a chilling warning for all serious martial artists. Greco-Roman wrestling was the original western grappling art, a serious martial art practised by soldiers and athletes. Along the line this evolved into the WWF circus that most people associate with wrestling nowdays. Imagine being a serious Greco-Roman wrestler today, having to explain to every Joe Blow you meet that your art has nothing to do with Hulk Hogan or the flying circus act that is the WWF, performed by paid actors for the entertainment of the viewers everywhere. As much as I like greco-roman wrestling, this point alone is enough to put me off practising it seriously... Now imagine in twenty years time, having to explain to everyone that the karate, or kickboxing, or Wing Chun that you practise(d) has nothing to with the antics of some clown in a rainbow gi he saw leaping about the ring on cable TV, clobbering his opponent with folding chairs and baseball bats while screaming the word "keeyaar!"

I've heard that Shi-To is actually the most popular in Japan, but Shotokan is bigger in the US. We do a bit of combo work, generally lots of foot movements and feints before launching the "real" attack, but also strike combos, punch, punch, kick sort of thing. Say like step, feint, backfist, front-kick, generally at hand held targets. Also, I'd say kata could be looked upon as practising combinations - some sections are just "one huge combo" in a way... Free sparring we can do pretty much anything, though, which is cool. No need to follow JKF rules in the local dojo BTW, G95 wrote "Then it was the fist style taught in America as well." I assume you mean FIRST style, but it's so funny and perfect, because kempo could be translated as "fist style" if you wanted. (Although "fist method" is more standard, I think)

Sounds like that belt should one day be passed on to your "successor" in turn... I always wondered why most belts cover two grades, white is only one, and brown covers three... now I know... hehe the brown belt can take the most wear.

-"Train like you fight, fight like you train" Don't you believe there is any value in doing techniques slowly to work on form and accuracy? I don't see how I could practise my blocking technique "exactly as I fight"... stuff has to be flying at me for it to work. I think particularly with blocks there is some value in practising the "long form" so to speak, with full sweep of the arm. This lets you see the full theoretical area of defense this move could cover, and later in a fight you can throw it from any position, adapting as necessary.

Okay, 'Jimmy B'... I see... who or what is Pil Sung then?

- "You know I ate one of those healthy biological yoghurts once and spent two days throwing up." Hmmm... some people don't handle dairy products well... From your name I'm guessing you're Asian. I've heard that many Asians can't properly digest dairy products, because they lack a certain enzyme or bacteria in their digestive system. Something hereditary - dairy has not been a part of that cultures traditional food therefore the system hasn't evolved to cope... You'd probably get real sick trying to live off the Massai diet of curdled cows blood and milk, but they all grow 6-7' tall on it. I was weaned from breast onto raw goat's milk, straight from some tiny farm out in the bush, so my system is probably more tolerant and durable. I've heard a bit about traditional Sufi and Indian medicines as well. People often forget India has a system of ancient, self contained sciences at least as old and detailed as the Chinese systems. The problem with neem leaves and mustard oil is that no-one can synthesize and patent it, then charge high prices for an "exclusive" product. With many modern doctors at the beck and call of the pharmaceutical companies, many drugs are prescribed based on the kick-back received by the doctor, rather than whether they are effective or not. Big drug companies have a vested interest in keeping herbal medicines out of the mainstream and will do anything they can to stop the "competition" from gaining a foothold. The other problem is that most westerners expect instant convenience and solutions in a pleasant tasting pill. The idea of actually cooking up a revolting tasting herbal mixture from leaves and sticks is deemed "beneath them", too hard and inconvenient and unpleasant and "primitive" - even if it works. Thus most are happy to pop their sugar pills and put up with the side effects, and would rather have troublesome organs surgically removed under anaesthetic than modify their diet and medicines to improve their health and allow sickness to heal. Those that want an alternative are prey to easy, non-specific quick fixes like "magic crystals" and "aura healing". And believing they can make a ki shield to block kicks to the groin...

- "Btw, the whole 'air in the arteries' was part of the Greek medical system. Beyond that there is the German medical system, which is the one used today, and the Chinese medical system, which is completely different from the other two and as yet unexplained by modern science" Interesting. I think of note is the fact the the German/Swiss medical system actually split into two factions - the "germ" theory of disease, following Pastuer, which became modern medical science, and the "natural health" theory which was in some ways similar to Chinese medicine. (Particularly in the way it tried sometimes to preserve or resurrect the traditional European herbal medicine, almost lost to folklore today) The basic idea was that, like maggots on a wound, germs only attack organs that are already unhealthy or sick in some way. Proper nutrition with natural foods, exercise, fresh air, and simple herbal remedies aimed at strengthening internal organs (sound familiar) were characteristics of the style. Widely ridiculed as quacks and ignored by the "mainstream" medical practise, the ideas of the Swiss "natural health" movement have been slowly assimilated as they have been proven effective. Thus today everyone has heard about vitamins, high fibre diet, anti-oxidants, acidophilus yogurt, and diseases caused by nutritional deficiency. All things once scoffed at by "mainstream/germ theory" medicine. Even vitamins are only grudgingly accepted by the medical profession, in my experience, and as anyone who has seen standard hospital food can attest. (How does anyone recover eating that junk...) Anyway, the basic theory is that your body has its own effective immune system, that will cure and heal itself if kept in good working order. I'll bet Pastuer with his tube of penicillin never foresaw the evolution of the anti-biotic resistant "super-bug"... I think the next step in medical advancement will not be zapping germs with ever more toxic stuff, but finding ways to boost the bodies own immune system in order to cope - whether those ideas come from east or west is irrelevant, as long as they are successful.

Except Ali G, who somehow struck in three directions at once. But anyway...

A long, long, time. First dan can take generally 2-4 years, but to get above 5th or so generally takes decades. Some have particular service time or age requirements, like 10 years continuous training time, or must be above 60 years old (on one thing I saw for 8th or 10th Dan somewhere, no kidding!) It is my experience that dan ranks in karate are generally treated fairly stringently, and not handed out like fairy floss as happens in some styles. You won't be made 7th dan for telling a good joke.

I think I am a "natural" blocker, so I don't understand the criticism sometimes directed at them... The important thing in a fight, or sparring, is to deflect the opponents strike, rather than to perform a perfect technique. Use your peripheral vision to be aware of stuff coming from all sides and angles, and if you need to block, be fast and instinctive. Let your arm throw the first block it wants, without thinking about it, or consciously trying to "perfect" the technique or select a specific blocking technique like "outer middle block", because if you do you'll be too slow. Once done, don't look down at the blocked strike. Keep your eyes forward and alert, and snap your arm straight back into a raised guard. Once you "get it" it is indeed possible to block a whole barrage of punches. Practise, practise, slow and accurate. Fight - fast and fluid.

Its never really come up for me... Does anyone hold a colored belt for long enough to need washing? My belt doesn't get that dirty... there shouldn't be THAT much grime in the dojo, and I only wear my gi there, so... I've actually heard of black belts in Japan... shock! horror! buying a NEW black belt

I think if you trained specifically to compete, tailoring your training to specific rules and techniques allowed, that would be a sport. You could train for self defense, as an art, but still make use of competition as a training tool, to test your techniques against others, without griping too much about the rules, or getting carried away thinking the competition IS the art and "winning" is the goal. It depends on intent, not whether or not you've done something "un-kosher" like enter a tournament.

I tend to use my hand most. I think I could probably use a few more fast kicks when sparring... Whatever will get through an opening in the opponents defense.

-does it teach more than jusst learning how to fight? Yes. Shotokan is a modern karate-do, (a budo) designed to develop the practitioner physically and mentally. Try to research a bit about bujutsu (older, 'pure' fighting') and budo (newer, training and sport oriented arts) in Japanese culture. -does it teach enough about self-defense Yes. Shotokan is a striking art, which will initially teach basic punching and kicks, as well as various blocks and some other moves. You will practise kata (forms) which string together techniques. Experienced karateka can extract advanced moves from kata and apply them in a number of ways, such as locks, trapping and joint breaking, advanced strikes and even judo style throws. (But this is not the "basic" syllabus) Karate-jutsu was originally developed for self defense, later for health and fitness, and only recently evolved into sporting formats with tournaments and like. Thus there are many true, valid karate self defense techniques which cannot be used in competition, but can still be learnt for "the street". -how long did it take you to be confident in your techniques?(toward shotokan practioners) Depends on the practitioner. Probably if you've one Muay Thai you'll pick it up quickly, as there would be lots of similarities. We had about 6 weeks of training in basics before sparring a wide range of grades from white to black. -REALLY,REALLY,REALLY,stupid question but have u ever seen street fighter alpha the cartoon or played the video game(i know...i know.) well ken and ryu, thats not really shotokan is it(not the part with the crazy fireballs and jumping 3 ,eters in the air).but their stance and basics Probably not. From memory they looked more like boxers. If you want to see what Shotokan should look like, go to your local book store and look at books by Ginchin Funakoshi, like Karate-Do Kyohan. Or search the web. -and finally im 15, im i too old? Are you kidding? If you're a guy you actually have at least another ten years before you hit your peak, physically. For some sports, like running, athletes often peak in their early thirties, as far as performance goes. At my dojo you wouldn't even qualify for a "regular" (adult) belt rank - under 16 has junior rankings... People continue to practise karate into 60s and beyond. Plus they can continue to enjoy the many "other" benefits without having to fight full contact tournaments...

But like all British humor it has a double edged sword - who exactly are they taking the mickey out of?