Taikudo-ka

Habitual Acts of Real Violence Specimen 1 - The wild haymaker http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/26/1027497416115.html Note the extreme "wind up" for the punch, and other features of stance and technique. Generally used by those you have severely pi$$ed off for some reason, who decide to "teach you a lesson". Note the friends/teammates on either side attempting to trap, stifle or otherwise stop the attack on their friend, an inevitable feature of fights in a "social" environment. Anyone want to add to the database?

Some good points, Tapout. But by your criteria any martial art could be considered combative. TKD is a sport yet it's combative. (Or is a kick in the head not considered an aggressive move?). Perhaps you are rating the "combativeness" of arts based on their success in NHB type contests? It can be revealing, but I don't think it quite tells the story I'm after. Boxing, for example, you say is a "combative sport". OK, but if we weren't concerned about the sports aspect, and just wanted to make the most "combative" form of boxing possible, how would you go about it? The basic hand work and striking techniques in boxing are fairly advanced, so those would be kept as is. Well, we could start by going back to bare knuckle fighting as the basis for the system. Gloves for full contact sparring but knowledge of proper bare hand striking techniques for actual application. Because the hand is not in a glove, you might want to learn some other useful striking surfaces like the palm heel, hammer fist and elbow. The basic evasive weaving and bobbing maneuvers of boxing are also advanced and effective. To this we might want to add defenses to get out of the clinch when theres no referee, i.e basic grappling defenses - escapes from locks, holds, chokes, etc, plus of course ways to use this against an opponent, by grabbing, clinching, etc. We'd also have to worry about attacks below the belt, attempted throws, tackles and assorted takedowns, etc. Maybe we could go to our rugby football mates to find out about defenses against tackles, stable stances used to hold your own in a scrum, resist leg tackles, etc. Also how to use these against an opponent. They could even let you in on illegal takedowns like the coathanger and other high tackles. You might end up bouncing around less and adopting more stable, subtle footwork for evasion and deception of your opponent. You might even want to add a few low kicks to knees and groin, plus of course using the knee itself, and any other illegal but devestating moves you want to add, like grabbing your opponents head and slamming into said knee. (Not a very sporting thing to do). And of course, with no need to hit "above the belt" you could concentrate on finding the most dangerous points on the body to strike. Yet the implications of these changes could turn out to be greater than you initially think. How would you practise some of these things with the realistic, fight as you train attitude of boxing?

- "as in an actual fight a proper stance has what relavence?? " All the relevance. If you don't understand the principles behind the stance, your technique won't work in real life. I'm not saying the form has to be perfect according to Japanese perceptions of symmetry and balance. Real application can look quite different from the kata or kihon. However, the underlying principles need to be applied, or: - you will be unbalanced - your technique will lack power - your footwork will be awkward - you will get swept, or kicked in the balls, or thrown. Again, I will reiterate that this applies to ALL martial arts, not just TKD. I sighed because you took my attempt to be constructive here and treated it like an attack on TKD, which I specifically said it was not... Chill, I'm trying to be on your side here, or at least be a fair arbitrater. Sometimes you're not making it easy for me... Me - "...Does your stance leave you wide open to a groin kick?..." TZ - "...thats what i think you are implying..and if so you are another one who knows nothing about taekwondo..." later "... in an actual fight a proper stance has what relavence??" C'mon, Tae, stay consistent or you'll blow our case. A groin kick is of great relevance in a real fight, but not in the sports ring. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-07-27 01:13 ]

In that the UFC is done on soft mats, one on one, in a closed ring with no "escape" possibility, and you can't kick a guy once he's down, no, UFC is not like a fight. In a "street situation" you are probably not facing a trained martial artist who has been praparing for the "bout". Systems like karate were originally developed to cope with habitual, untrained acts of aggression that might occur in real life. Things like a haymaker to the head, a tackle, a bearhug, someone grabbing your shirt, a basic kick to the groin or stomach, or just someone holding a fist threateningly at you, for intimidation. I have not been in a fight since I was very young, and then only if I got really mad at bully or something and let loose. Usually I would just take it, then "turn the other cheek" and take it some more. The first fight I got in when I was about 5, I have NO idea why this other (older) kid wanted to fight me, and had never experienced anything like that before. I just took him down and pinned him to the ground, then sat there not having the slightest idea what to do next. Didn't occur to me to hit him, and I didn't want to anyway. The few "real" streetfights I've seen between older men have been fairly savage - lots of short range striking and grabbing where its hard to see who's got the upper hand, then if one goes down the other kicks the crap out of him. From what I remember at school, fighters only ever danced around like boxers throwing jabs if neither was really serious about the fight. If even one party is really serious it goes to the clinch pretty quickly, and finishes when one person is standing, and the other is not. [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-07-27 00:45 ]

Hmmm, mostly the old trashing of styles there, or more about the "essence" of martial arts. I'm not asking about the "essence" of budo here, forget all about the names and labels you've heard... I'm saying, imagine there are no "style" names - every dojo out there just teaches something called "fighting", no fancy names. Looking at it from a purely practical point of view, what would you look for to differentiate the "combative/self defense" fighting vs the "sports" fighting.

I don't think people should really raise animals to fight. It's a pretty nasty business.

Well I think we all should be using smaller transport. Scooters, bikes, and much smaller cars, like 1,2 person vehicles half the width of a normal car. (Maybe 1/4 the width of a normal American car.) Preferably with non-polluting, low noise engines. But no, everyone wants to drive great tanks around... If you study urban architecture, you will see that the car has changed the scale of the modern city (chewing up vast amounts of land), clogged the streets with noisy machines spewing poisonous gasses, driving off the pedestrians who used to walk there, and generally increased the time it takes to travel in urban areas, particularly during peak hour. In short, cars don't actually work all that well, as far as improving quality of life for the average city dweller. Just most people havn't noticed yet. They are only good once you get them out into the open country, with no traffic.

What do you think are the technical points that differentiate a combative and a sport style of martial arts. The question of which art is what often surfaces on Karateforums. It often degenerates into ridiculing a particular style for being "too sports oriented", or general style bashing. Rather than rehash the old style arguments, I'd like to throw down the gauntlet and ask people to qualify just what they mean by a "combative" martial art. What are the points of your art that you believe makes it "combative", that stops it from just being sport. OTOH, what do you think "makes" a sport art. What would you look for (and maybe avoid)?

I've never done any "formal" breaking, but I've had plenty of experience breaking up wood for various reasons, mostly as firewood. One thing I've learnt is that the type and condition of the wood mean more than the thickness. I mean, 12" of wood don't mean jack if it's old and dry and rotten and eaten by termites. Also the proportions are more important than absolute thickness. Noone could break a 2" square, 1" thick, but the same thickness 12 feet long and 2" wide is less of an issue. What are the standard sizes, types and condition of wood used for breaking in karate? What about other materials? Anyone care to boast of their breaking exploits? (Standardized sizes, of course...)

G, as far as proper technique will put more of your weight into the strike, it really is a multiplication effect. Proper technique will also increase the speed, no? For example the wrist snap on a backfist. So according to physics, you're actually understating the importance of technique... Another point is that the force of impact is spread over the surface area of the contact point. Thus striking with a smaller surface will concentrate the power and thus cause more damage. This is why stilleto heels chew up wood floors, and also explains why a knife, with an ultra fine contact point, penetrates and cuts easily. (While the blunt side doesn't cut at all.) In martial arts, it explains the reasoning behind single knuckle strikes, finger jabs, seiken punch, etc. However, the smaller areas are often more fragile, so most people can unleash more force with a palm heel or hammer fist blow.

Just so you can see how high the karate front stance once was... http://www.vordingborg-karate.dk/whatis6.gif This is Miyagi Chojun, founder of Goju-Ryu, training with Juhatsu Kyoda. Anyone else have any interesting pictures, videos or links showing how the famous karateka of old really did it, in person.

- "are you implying that taekwondo doesnt do any of these?? " Sigh... No Taezee. In fact, as you state, I don't really know much about TKD. My questions are general questions you can ask of any striking art. I'm trying to suggest some criteria whereby you can decide for yourself whether your school is oriented towards sport or self defense. The specific style is really irrelevant. I'm hoping others could contribute more. This would actually give people something concrete to think about, rather than mindlessly bashing "style X" or "style Y".

I can't "split" either. My legs will bend forward and up easily, so I can touch my toes, but sideways their movement is more limited. Strangely, if I sit with feet together, I can press my knees fully to the floor. But in a split, I go nowhere... Maybe I need more practise, but it feels like I'm hitting the the limits of the bone here, not just muscle tightness. It's like my pelvis gets in the way of further sideways movement of the leg...

Actually Zakiru might be onto something... Some questions you might like to ask, not specifically directed at TKD: - Does your stance leave you wide open to a groin kick? Care to test it? - Do you practise close range techniques like elbows and knees? - Are you prepared if someone grabs your arm, your kick, or your clothing? If they then try to throw you? Are you prepared to do likewise to them? - Do you know the best striking points to damage your opponent? Or just the head and the big round dot, and how many points they're worth? - Have you practised striking a suitably padded target full force? Or only ever punched air? Without these, I doubt you'd have effective self defense in a real situation. There is more...

Blue, you're asking the wrong question - "big" or "strong" don't really describe things accurately. Taezee is nearly right. Power = Speed x Mass This is a simple equation. Basic physics. But, like "perpetual motion machines", it has caused a lot of grief to those who misunderstand the principles, and end up barking up the wrong tree. Speed (more accurately velocity) is how fast the impact "object" (fist, foot, elbow, etc) is moving towards the target, at moment of impact. Mass represents the amount of weight that is actually in motion. The maximum mass you can put behind a strike is equal to your body weight. However, most people don't strike in such a way to use most of their weight. If you stand rigid and still and just jab from the elbow, the mass of your strike won't be much more than the weight of your fist and upper arm. Speed is a matter of practise, and proper use of muscles and body leverage. If you tense the wrong muscles, you will slow down and weaken your strike. On the other hand, if you don't tense the right muscles, your strike will also be weak, and "collapse" on impact. All striking martial arts are basically systems of movement designed to address these points: 1. Getting maximum body weight behind a strike 2. Using body mechanics (torque and leverage) to generate maximum speed. 3. Correct tension and relaxation to properly deliver the whole package. There are some other good threads on striking power on the forums here. Blue, if you want a powerful punch, work on your tricep fast twitch muscles. Keep your biceps loose through the whole strike (until retraction). Make sure your weight goes thru your fist, sinking into your opponent, not into the floor.

Aaahahh, I see. You can get in to members without registering for now. (But you don't find out unless you click) It's only Shotokan for now, with some pictures.

It does for plenty of people on this board... Bon, you think Australia doesn't count?

I don't know if the type of martial artist who would want to get into politics is necessarily the type of martial artist who should get into politics. People who desire power are the least suited to wield it.

BTW, this garbage about the pants...? Here's the thing: The first dogi like clothing in use was generally short - short, above the knee pants and a short sleeve kimono. This can be seen in some old photos. It gradually got longer. I think the length was extended to cover knees and elbows to protect them from grazing. The style was like modern 3/4 length pants, and a similar jacket. I think the modern full length dogi evolved later from competition, where the long pants and jacket just looked better, more "formal". However, for real training, many people prefer either the more traditional shorter length, or just to roll up the pants or sleeves, so they don't get in the way. It's very frustrating to try a front-kick and get your toe stuck in the end of your long, wide pants. Then again, maybe they are just wearing a "Japanese cut" that's too short for their long western legs? [ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-07-25 00:20 ]

HobbitBob, you may well be on to something there... Anyway, I have started doing Goju karate from now on. I am quite impressed by this style. My new dojo is much more traditional than the largely sports karate I've been studying. First thing Sensei did is rip my technique apart, from foot to fist... I'm right back to square one as far as "real karate" is concerned.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/24/1027497355651.html About a young girl "who was snatched kicking and screaming a few metres from her home". It can happen. I didn't have to wait too long for an example to come along either. There have also been plenty of examples of rapes happening in public parks, etc, where anyone could happen past, see, and do something... yet usually noone does.

TKD came from Shotokan, so that could be your best bet. I believe it has evolved a bit though... Goju is very different, and much more influenced by Chinese Kung Fu. It is also a lot closer to the original Naha-Te style. More close fighting methods and stances, grappling, circular moves and footwork, etc. Some parts of the kata look almost like Tai Chi, but then the karateka suddenly explodes into action.

If he'd wanted to test skills, he should have been fair and clear about the rules to begin with, not constantly "revising" them, and then breaking his own rules anyway, just to get the upper hand. It's not so much the fact he lost, that can happen to anyone, but the fact that he was so un-sporting and dis-honorable in his attempts to win. If he had lost fair and square, then I could still respect the guy. If he can take his loss, and point out what he did wrong and WHY he lost, then he's still truly a master. He did none of these things...

I think Ronryu is right about high kicks. I'm talking the traditional karate that the Okinawans practised originally, before it came to Japan. I heard that the round house and side kick were imported from savate, of all things. Also that karate, like wing chun, originally only had a front kick. (Plus the various "stomps"). Anyone know where these kicks really came from?

Hehe yeah it sounds drastic, but you get used to it and in reality its probably not followed that rigidly... I didn't go overboard mentioning protein because everyone else has, and I'm sure in practise he'd get enough. The problem is that most "typical" protein sources are high in fat - meat, dairy, eggs, nuts, etc. Beans are good in that they're low fat, high protein, (and technically also a vegetable). In fact most foods contain some protein, even tomatoes. Grains, vegetables, tubers (potatoes, etc), dried beans, tofu (a soy bean extract) all contain some protein. Technically, it is possible to get enough protein from a purely vegan diet... you just have to eat a LOT. Gorillas are 99.9% genetically identical to humans, largely vegan in diet, yet grow huge because they eat all the time - VAST quantities of salad and fruit constitute the typical gorilla diet, plus a few nuts and seeds. Of course, all this food must come out again, and we can't all spend 8 hours a day eating constantly. If you combine a small amount of animal protein (meat, dairy) with the rest, plus some nuts, it enhances the overall combination of proteins in the food, allowing better use of the proteins in the grains and vegetables as well. So a typical Japanese dish might have rice, a small amount of meat, vegatables, tofu, plus some sesame seeds sprinkled in there, which all combine to enhance the overall protein combination in the meal. Or maybe an egg mixed with a small amount of beef. You can't beat sashimi and rice for a high protein, high carb, ultra low fat dish. Particularly when you add something ultra mineral rich like seaweed. As an ex-vegetarian, I'm OK with eating meat, but not to excess. It's a good food, but there ARE other protein sources. Fish is great too, and often overlooked. I still think of fish as a type of meat, although I know others don't. (????) The main factor is getting lean meat, and not cooking it in fat. Most takeaways are processed, high fat meats deep fried in lard... Not good. Deep fried KFC nuggets - bad. Spit barbequed chicken (where the fat drips out) - good. Battered, deep fried fish - bad. Sashimi - good. Fried sausages - bad. Lean beef strips steamed in broth w/ noodle soup - good. I actually think most obesity in modern society is due to the ease with which calories are drunk. Mainly flavored milk, thickshakes and softdrinks. Dairy in particular. I mean a glass of milk is supposed to be a whole meal. That's what it's "designed" for. A liquid meal designed to pack on the fat and calories and make you grow big and fat. All by itself! Imagine what it could do combined with a few cheeseburgers and fries!