Traditional-Fist

And I have met karate practitioners who are eclectic as well, not forgetting of course that karate is eclectic by design when compared to boxing. Traditional Karatekai from the hardcore schools spend a lot of the time infighting as well. Many will have the bruises and broken bones to prove it. This may happen more in japan and Okinawa than the western countries, but even so I believe there are a few real hard core schools still functioning in the west. Karate DOES have takedown techniques through the use of locks, sweeps and even leg grabs. Obviously how much depends on the individual style. Once the opponent is down the karate-kai does not have to go to ground with him. Usually they train to hit the opponent as he is going down or as soon as he hits the floor. Depending on the style the hit could be to a general target like the head or the torso or to vital areas such as the windpipe or the eyes which are hit or even grabbed. The latter type of finishing reduces the chances of the downed opponent getting up or pulling the karatekai down to the ground. I would also like to add that there is a traditional Okinawan Goju-ryu school here in london where ground fighting is practised. This aspect of the training is not taken from wrestling, judo nor Bjj. Groundfighting training applications are taken directly from the traditional Okinawan Goju katas. ....But we are comparing the two arts individually. I know that in Japan many karatekai have judo backgrounds as well, but that is not the point. I will be there to hold your M60 machinegun while you are shooting at Mas and Mike.

You are ASSUMING that a kick from a traditionally trained karatekai from a fighting school is going to just bounce off a boxer's knee or leg without absolutely hurting or distracting him. Remembering that boxers have no training whatsoever to deal with leg attacks. Furthermore, a second attack can also be a hand attack. You are ASSUMING that once a boxer gets into close range then he will win against a karatekai, however, keep in mind that a hardcore karatekai will have fought short range and will have enough technique and firepower to fight close range. I will also add that he will have the option of using takedowns, which exist in traditional karate, but not boxing as far as I know. Also, if you are going to bring Mike Tyson into it then maybe I can bring Mas. Oyama into this equasion and then I will put the battle into a street scenario and bare knuckle at that. See where I am going?

I would have thought that it was available in the U.S. Have a look. If not, check olut Amazon as they most probably will have a copy for sale.

Sensei Mike is making a good point. If you can't kick the boxers leg out with your first kick then you might with your second one. Boxers are not generally trained to handle low kicks. Even a relatively ineffective kick to his knee may distract him enough for the karate man to enter with hand techniques, which depending on the school, will include takedowns as well. A karatekai from a fighting schools is better trained to defend against fist attacks than a boxer is against leg attacks. If we are talking about a karate man from a FIGHTING and traditional school of karate, then we are talking about someone who will be able to use not only fists and kicks as weapons but also be able to use elbows and knees, open hand strikes and yes, even clinches and takedown techniques as weapons. The problem nowadays is that many karate (and kung fu) schools do not train the way they are supposed to and hence the general lack of fighting credibility of many dojos/practioners. There are exceptions of course, and those are the ones I have in mind when making my comparissons.

Talking about korean films, there is the "fighter in the Wind" this is supposed to be a kind of a biography on the life of Mas. Oyama. I found the movie very inspiring with some great fight scenes, eventhough a lot of significant facts in Oyama's life were overlooked, some of them, shall we say, for patriotic reasons. Otherwise the movie was very entertaining with great photography and music.

Here in the UK the Street Fighter series of movies are sold in a DVD pack. Good value with some bone crushing action.

I dunno about that one... none of the guys I know who train WC can compare to me when it comes to kicking. Maybe the WC guys that you know have not trained in authentic WC and/or at least not with good WC sifus. On the other hand maybe you train your kicks more diligently than they do. Inspite of being probably the most popular kung fu style in the West, real WC, and schools that practise the complete art, not some "new and improved/modern" version, are difficult to find, and I am not even mentioning the difficulty involved in locating a competente sifu either.

As a rule of the thumb you should practise one style to a point where you have grasped the fundementals and have developed a working knowledge of techniques and their application before you even consider taking up another style. Now, when it comes to Aikido, I don't see its relevance to Wing Chun. My advice would be for you to stick to Wing Chun and let your girlfriend miss you a little .

No that doesn't make any sense . I definitely read that Chiba had studied Kyokushin Karate. He even portrayed Oyama in a couple of his movies. Also, I almost forgot, in his younger days he was a promising gymnast. Anyway, I am sure that there must be more reliable info on Chiba somewhere on the net. The search continues.....

To develop chi one must practise chi kung. The Siu lim tao form contains chi kung elements within it. You will not realize it just yet, perhaps, but you will come to appreciate these elements eventually. Similarly to StoneCrusher, the WC that I practise has a lot of internal elements. Dare I call it an internal school of Wing Chun? Anyway, if your school is internally inclined then your sifu will eventually teach you Chi Kung exercises which you will have to do in the mornings, just after you wake up, and in the evenings just before you go to bed. Diligent practise of these exercises will help you to eventually develop your chi. Good luck.

Agreed. I believe that if one practises real Wing Chun seriously or to a high level then the notion of adding kick boxing to his art becomes irrelevant.

I have read somewhere that Sonny Chiba has practised Kyokushinkai karate under Mas. Oyama. I don't know wether he was a direct student or wether he studied at the Honbu in Tokyo. I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong), that Chiba has at least a couple of dans on his black belt.

Jion, Oh, I almost forgot. Apparently the Japanese Self Defence Police Force use Shotokan Karate for their unarmed combat training. Their sparring is full contact and punches to the face are allowed. They do however use rather small fighting gloves. I have got the above information from a documentary DVD. According to this program, the police force hold karate (Shotokan) tournaments and these are the most brutal karate competitions in Japan. It will be worthwhile for you to explore THEIR Shotokan further if at all possible. I don't know if there is any info on the internet, because I have not looked for it myself yet. Good luck.

I believe that Shotokan Karate as practiced by the Japanese, and at least up to the early 1960's was more of a fighting art than it is for the most part today. I believe that the JKA training involved a lot of vital area attacks; defense against boxing and grappling type attacks as well as more variety in hand techniques. There are probably schools that practice Shotokan that way today as well, not many, but there must be some around somewhere. I would suggest that you research other schools of Shotokan as well as reading some older books on the subject. My personal direct experience with Shotokan is somewhat limited compared to yours and to many people in this forum. I did however practice it in a good school for about a year or so. I do know that it was a good school and that the black belts, as disciplined, polite and honorable as they were, were not to be messed with. Anyway, good luck and I know that you can find what you are looking for within Shotokan.

[quote="Ali Quite clear that no ground fight in Wing Chun or at least "Traditional" one if you like to label that. Would you train some wrestling or BJJ also? Just do that for Insurance.... Accident would happen sometime.... There is ground fighting, using the theories and concepts of Wing Chun in the traditional WC that I study. This aspect of the art is taught to the higher level students. As Stone Crusher says, you can find a lot of the answers in the style that you study.

Very good post. Many people seem to think that there is an "easy" answer in cross training and hence they diversify into other arts putting a lot of time and effort in learning different arts that are sometimes even contradictory to each other. In the end of the day if they had put the same time and effort into their one art, specially, and in this case, an art like Wing Chun, they would have been much better off. This is assuming, of course, that they study the real thing with a real knowledgable sifu. As you say it is important to test your art against other arts, i.e. to be aware of other styles and methods in relation to what one studies. Maybe, in some way, that is what Ali is saying as well.

Thanks god for that. It will be a very sad day, the day, when a great fighting art such as kyokushinkai karate is turned into another kickboxing style sport, to fullfil some shallow commercial agenda. Osu! A little of topic but, knockdown tournaments serve several functions, the most obvious is to draw attention to the art by highlighting the organization's most talented fighters. It is little understood by most outsiders that all Kyokushin instructors are or at one time were themselves competitive fighters, much like all Marines are riflemen first and foremost. In this way the fighting spirit you noted is not diluted by diletante karate intructors who wax on about poetry and kata yet can't punch through a wet paper bag. The tournaments promote the art as well as cultivate the organization's people and ethos. My worry was that if this trend of just teaching only competition fighting - kickboxing? - had caught on ,then there wouldn't be an "art" to promote, or at least, THE art. The art of Kyokushinkai Karate, as created by Mas. Oyama, which did contain Katas and the rich array of techniques TOGETHER WITH Knock Down fighting.

Thanks god for that. It will be a very sad day, the day, when a great fighting art such as kyokushinkai karate is turned into another kickboxing style sport, to fullfil some shallow commercial agenda. Osu!

As someone who practices in an "internal" school of Wing Chun I disagree with you and will stress that what I said about weight training stands. My sifu has practiced this Wing Chun for many years and follows its particular theories and concepts which work for him and his advanced students and disciples. Ultimately, however, we choose our own particular ways based on what we believe to be reality. So if you belief in training is contrary to mine and if it works for you, then good luck. No one said that it was. However, there is, literally, more to it than meets the eyes.

Yes muscle mass tends to restrict the flow of chi. Though as far as I know, situps are ok.

....and many chinese martial artists, who use both their palms and fists, regard palm strikes as more powerful than fist strikes, mainly due to the "vibration" effects of such strikes. Traditional Okinawan karate styles such as Goju-Ryu, do use palm strikes on the makiwara. They also use other, non knuckle parts of the hands as well, in makiwara training. ....a palm to the chest can do more damage than a fist, if one has mastered the palm technique that is. Agreed Conclusion: master both palm and fist techniques.

It is all in the training. Your comments also hold true for kung fu. When your training is slow, detailed and faithful to your art then eventually you will fight the way you were meant to in your particular art other wise you will do the "boxer thing" i.e. jab, wide swings and bouncing around, which is good for boxing and fits within its theories and concepts, but not good for karate nor kung fu.

I would just like to add, and speaking in general, the body tension and breathing used in the application/performance of karate and kung fu punches can be very different, hence the different effects regarding the POWER and the PENETRATION of the the fist. This means that to the unlooker some of the punches may look similar or even the same, but the energy transfer may be very different hence the "ball on the chain" effect as opposed to the "iron bar". Bruce Lee said that it "hurts inside", when referring to the ball and chain effect, I.E. More PENETRATION. Of course this is nothing new. A lot of the times Bruce Lee regurgitated enchante kung fu philosophy when explaining the chinese martial arts. He did this also, when describing his JKD. Many people wrongly mistook the "be like water"; "adapt"; "use what is useful and discard what is useless" etc.,etc. as JKD concepts when this concepts had existed in the chinese martial arts for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Chuck Norris WAS portrayed as a karate man.

If I had to choose between the two, then I would choose Kyokushinkai karate. If you can find a good dojo then your training will be tough and your fighting will be contact. Kyokushin possesses a vast array of techniques and it is much richer than many people think. It does possess joint locks, sweeps, throws and more. You will just need to be lucky and find the right dojo/sensei, and the rest will be up to you. There are others here in this forum that actually practise Kyokushinkai and hopefully they will provide a more intimate and precise input on this great style.