Traditional-Fist

I believe my definition or, if you like, the Kung Fu definition and the degree of required softness is VERY different from yours. I.E. What might look like a soft and fluid technique to a kick boxer or a grappler may contain unacceptable levels of hardness and rigidedness when viewed by an authentic kung fu practitioner. And if you see the original chinese version from the Wu Zhu Kwan (Five Ancestor Fist) style of kung fu you will agree with me and come to appreciate its lack of hardness/tension when compared to its karate "cousin". But they do practise 3 step, 1 step etc. fixed sparring FOR YEARS. This is where one karate kai attacks and the other one defends stepping back. Generally speaking, in kung fu terms this type of training builds bad habits. These habits can even be seen in sparring sessions when more often then not the natural reaction of most exponents tends to be TO GO BACK AND DEFEND and then mount their own attack. They do, but fortunately when one practises kata there is no one infront trying to take off ones head. Also, it is common knowledge among practitioners of authentic kung fu that one very rarely steps INTO an attack in the same direct way as one does , lets say, in many of Shotokan karate's katas. I.e. Don't meet force with force,(a basic concept). Many of the typical Shotokan blocks would also be considered too hard and even ineffective by many kung fu practitioners because among other things they meet force with force. I must stress here that I am not criticising Shotokan, nor karate for that matter. I have myself practised Shotokan, for a short while some years back, and believe it to be a good art, but I also know that it took me quite a while to get rid of the hardness when I gave it up for Wing Chun. I am just tryig to demonstrate the differences that would make it difficult for a karate practitioner to adapt to kung fu and I am doing so using the kung fu PERSPECTIVE based on ITS OWN concepts and NOT MINE. Note:I now practise another style of kung fu in another part of the world with an authentic sifu who follows the same philosophy and concepts as my first sifu on the other side of the Atlantic. I am afraid that we will have to disagree on this one. Adapting from many years of Karate training to an AUTHENTIC style of kung fu is a very difficult business. There are variables of course such as how long one has practised karate and what style and then what style of kung fu he intends to take up, His/her own ability and adaptibility, etc. I must stress here that I am referring to changing from traditional karate to traditional kung fu here and not the "watch me bounce around" derivatives of the said systems (McDojo?), which are modern inventions that for the most part do not possess, among other things, the philosophy nor the essence of the original systems they try to portray.

Such as the Chi element.

Selective breaking is sometimes referred to as "Cotton Palm". It is real. My Sifu can do it. Even some karate masters such as the famous Kanazawa of Shotokan, who has studied Chinese arts such as Tai chi, is reputed to have such skills. I would hesitate to refer to men such as him as parlour magicians. Tendon training is an important part of both "hard" and "soft" kung fu styles. Both tendon and muscle strengh are used in punching. There are also other internal elements at play in a kung fu punch as opposed to, lets say a boxing punch. Mizu Ryu, You can train iron palm on your own as long as you have been taught the basics. As you probably know, you will need further instruction/supervision as you upgrade your training.

You haven't mentioned anything about the correct breathing. This aspect is an essential part of iron palm training. Without the correct breathing one will only end up with hard hands and not much else. Maybe your friend will tell you you all about it on Sunday when he can demonstrate it to you in person. Good luck with your training and be patient.

In my opinion one of the most, if not the most difficult aspects could be the ability to adapt to the "softness" of kung fu, when one changes from karate, specially a hard and linear style such as Shotokan. The Chi Kung aspect of kung fu is present in all kung fu styles even the so called "hard" systems. This will reflect in techniques and sets which, to the uninitiated, will look soft. This kind of softness is not generally associated with karate, eventhough some styles may be softer and more fluid than others, such as Shorin Ryu when compared to Shotokan. There are other concepts and principles that, to my knowledge, do not exist in karate. One significant one is the fact that you do not go back to defend yourself. All training is based on moving into the opponent when he attacks, jamming and destroying him. I.e. The concept of the karate three step sparring does not exist, in at least some kung fu styles. This means one does not step back and block and eventually counter attacks. Not in partner practise, including chi sao. What I have said here holds true for my Wing Chun training when I lived in Brazil and it also holds true to my current training in kung fu (another style) here in the outer reaches of north London. You can appreciate the difficulty experienced by a practitioner who is used to going back and defending, in being told that he needs to move into the attack (in an angle usually). So I believe that depending on one's karate experience and even character, it could take years to adapt to kung fu, unless of course the person is an extremely flexible and adaptable martial artist.

I classify any martial study as art which uses scientifid principles, just like every other study, probably.

I believe it is called Middle Kingdom or at least it was. Or maybe I am just mixing up my facts.

You are most welcome.

I agree. However, the superior size gives one more confidence in the use of direct techniques such as jamming, where one may have to meet the opponents' techniques head on. But again, high kicks, specially excessive use of them, will put a fighter in compromising positions, which skilled opponents can easily manipulate.

It would fare extremely well in a street confrontation maybe even too well, that is well enough to get one arrested. You wouldn't believe how many of those techniques could kill an adversary, if applied without any control. Kung Fu is a real martial art and was devised to help one win - or at least survive-battles in many scenarios, which nowadays includes the street. Obviously, one needs to be a skilled kung fu exponent to make these techniques work.

The Dragon style of kung fu is regarded as a high level style, i.e. It is mainly an internal system. Having said this, the beginner's training will be "hard" and defined. This leads eventually to a softer and flowing approach where the main objective becomes the cultivation of Chi (but in a combative format). The Dragon exponent is evasive, usually using the upper body movement to avoid the opponent's strikes, as opposed to using the stance which is the case, for example, for the Wing Chun exponent. The Dragon style's weapons include, the fist, the claw, low sweeps, and even the leopard punch. Because of its' high level of internal training, the Dragon strikes are very penetrative and are aimed at damaging internal organs and are potentially deadly. This is a just a quick explanation of the Southern Dragon Fist. The style itself is complex but I believe it to be one of the best Kung Fu styles on can learn if one is lucky enough to find a real master.

The little guy's kicks may have been a little more effective if he wasn't fighting such a tall opponent...

Your devotion to your chosen style has to be respected by the people who share your life. At the same time you have to respect their respect for your chosen path and cut down a little of your training to accomodate them, i.e. Give and take. Good luck.

Gero Good post. Real life stories showing that traditional karate (and kung fu for that matter) techniques work in real fights, have to be told once in a while to stress the fact that we do not practise "dance fighting" and that what we practise are martial arts. By the way Gero, what rank were you when you had this experience?

You are right. I would however say that many traditional "striking" arts have grappling incorporated within them. Unfortunately many people who claim to be experts teaching these arts do not have a holistic understanding of what they teach, or to be less diplomatic, are plain mediocre. As a result the grappling (and other important) aspects are not passed on to many practitioners, who in their turn end up learning incomplete systems that they will need to complement with "outside" training. Having made the above statements (mainly about traditional kung fu and karate), I have no idea wether TKD, in its original form, had any grappling techiques. If it didn't/doesn't then I suppose that one will need to practise another system to gain these skills.

Yes most of the Chinese and the Japanese arts that I know of do. I would would guess that even Muay Thai as practised in its non-sport format does so as well. ....Not only concentrate, but take it further into other realms, for example, the ways of hitting various points; the type of internal energy used and the angles. Here is where the higher levels of kung fu practise come into their own. And no there are no shortcuts. To achieve such skills one has to practise much longer than anyone practising the shall we say the more external styles.

I wonder how many people, on whom dimmak was applied by real experts and not by Mc dojo-ists, are not here nor able to testify, and in person, to its effectiveness in internet forums such as this..

Jake 90, Here in the UK there is at least one sifu that teaches Drunken Kung Fu as an individual COMBAT oriented style. The Drunken style of kung fu is a very unorthodox deceptive and at the same time an effective method of fighting. It is not easy to master, but then, neither are many other styles of kung fu. The system includes close range fighting techniques, punches, palm strikes, kicks as well as grappling. It is not a style for "show fighting", inspite of the fact that it has been adapted for Wu Shu demonstrations/competitions. If you find a knowledgable sifu to teach you and you manage to stick to it for some years, then believe me that you will find this art rewarding and effective. The most difficult part will be finding a good sifu in a not so well known/practised (at least in the West) style of kung fu. Even so don't give up hope, if you are really interested. I myself have found a sifu here in London who is a master of an even more obscure style of kung fu while searching for a decent (for me) Wing Chun school. I am currently training under him. As far as the Wing Chun (probably the most popular kung fu style in the West) goes, I am still looking.....go figure.

To my knowledge Snake Style is not taught on its own, but as a part of the Shaolin Five Animals style. I know that elements of it exist in other styles of kung fu. I am not discounting the possibility that it may be taught separately on its own, who knows?

The Snake style is usually taught as a part of the Shaolin Five Animales system. It is also present in some of the other Shaolin arts such as Wing Chun. It is a "soft" style. This means that the strikes are made with internal force. As a result the training in this aspect of kung fu involves extensive chi kune exercises to develpe internal energy (chi). In the snake style the main weapons used for strikes are the finger tips. These are used to attack the nerve centers of the oponent's body. This means that the exponent has to have extensive knowledge of human anatomy, from a chinese medicinal point of view, that is. I hope that was enough info there to give you an idea of what is involved in the Snake style of kung fu.

It looks like some kind of a kick boxing class........WEIRD!

The Jeet Kune Do concept is nothing unique. Martial arts systems such as traditional (real) kung fu and karate advocate the same philosophy but not in the same way. First you train, learn and understand the individual style. This by nature will take some years at least, and then you adapt it to you, ie. you take what works for you and ignore what doesn't. Keep in mind that many real kung fu and karate styles incorporate not only simple striking techniques, but also various grappling, pressure point fighting etc. i.e. the arsenal is there to choose and adapt to oneself. Traditionally in China many martial arts experts would train in more than one kung fu style. This meant that they would have an even greater arsenal to incorporate into their "personal" fighting system. They never called this concept Jeet Kune Do because they were not thinking in terms of marketing kung fu in such a way, and to westerners at that.

Chinese Boxing is one of various terms used to describe what we know in the West as Kung Fu.

You can go to the kyokushinkai HQ or even the Goju-Ryu HQ (Yamaguchi). The training will be tough but the experience will be a valuable one.

I am sorry to hear about your bad experience. The problem nowadays with MA is the loss of traditional martial arts values that were held by many instructors. The implementation of these values had led to the filtering out of unwanted and delinquent elements for centuries. What has happened now is that commercialism has resulted in lax discipline in thousands of MA schools which are attracting people of low character, many of whom become instructors themselves. I hope that things change. How? I don't know but things are pretty bad nowadays.