Traditional-Fist

A more careful study of that site should reveal that the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think.

If it is still is shotokan, then call it Shotokan and just sub-headline it as full contact . There are quiet a few Shotokan schools that practise full contact. If you change the name of an art that means that you become the founder of a new art and that has its own implications. I personally believe that there are enough "new" arts around nowadays.

Exactly, they are not Qigong masters and many of them are not that healthy either, whereas most if not all real qigong masters radiate health. Actually that kind of muscle mass actually inhibits the flow of chi, that is why resistance training, where one builds maximum definition with minimum muscle mass, is regarded by many traditional kung fu schools as the best kind of exercise, together with regular and extensive chi kung training of course.

I would say that Shukokai is more sport oriented than Shotokan, which depending on individual schools, can be regarded as more of a "fighting" style. The old JKA training(in Japan) seems to have had more combat oriented approach, even going as far as including defense training against grappling and boxing type attacks. I don't know if this type of methodology is still followed. Today Shotokan, as taught to the Japanese Selfdefense Police, is very combat oriented. Sparring is full contact and punches are allowed to the face. They hold regular tournaments, open to public viewing, which are reputed to be brutal. Also, Egami's Shotokai is practised as budo rather than sport. Shigeru Egami was of course one of Funakoshi's original students.

From what little I know about Shukokai I would say that its stances are much higher than that of Shotokan as it is a "faster" style. It was also created as more of a sport style of karate rather than budo. That is my input on it. I personally would go for Shotokan if I had the choice, but, as you have no choice, give it a try and see if you like it. Good luck.

Mas. Oyama believed that musicality and having good rhythm helped ones advancement in karate.

Any authentic Kung Fu school that teaches the major Shaolin and/or Wudang arts will also teach meditation.

Throw any object that you can grab. Even your own shoes, watch, coins, keys, pen etc. Throw hard to disrupt his spinning and then enter and hit hard. Or otherwise it is best to run if you are able to, or if your pride lets you.

Hello fellow Wing Chunner.

I believe that Uechi-Ryu contains a great amount of kung fu influence. As a result it has both hard and soft aspects to it. The Sanchin kata practiced in this and some other okinawan styles is adopted from chinese kung fu style of Wu Zhu Kwan (Five Ancestor Fist). However, the manner it is practiced in Karate is quiet different from the way it is practised in kung fu. Uechi-Ryu is known for its body hardening training, some of which is done during the Sanchin kata practice. A technique that is claimed to be exclusive(within karate styles) to this style of karate, is the toe-kick, where the conditioned toes are used to strike vital points of the opponent. In fact, the toes are hardened to such an extent that the exponents are able to break several wooden boards with their kicks. Another-claimed - exclusive technique is the thumb knuckle strike which is usually aimed at the throat of the adversary. Again, the thumb knuckle is conditioned to an extent where the exponet can break wooden boards with single strikes. All the above info refers to Uechi-Ryu Karate as practiced on the Island of Okinawa. I have no idea of how it is practiced here in the West. If trained properly Uechi-Ryu is a very effective self defense system because of its lethal and no nonsense techniques including its thumb knuckle strikes, usually-aimed at the throat, that seem to be exclusive to this style.

MCDOJO! You must ignore this site and all others like it. Remember that there are no short cuts, maybe shorter cuts, but definitely no plain short ones. The real secret in MA training is to find the right MA, for you, and the right school/instructor and then train like a fanatic without ever giving up....

Great post. I just want to add that Shotokan and YOU performed admirably. Just becareful because as ravenzoom said they may come back for seconds, and if they do then give them more of the same, just watch out for sucker punches and weapons, etc.

Socratic_Sifu, I am glad that you found the article interesting. I have a feeling that more research needs to be undertaken in this area. Good luck with your training.

Thanks for that post. It really cheered me up.

Interesting. Have a look at this page for some interesting hypothesis: https://www.crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm

That is true in one level. But as you probably know many practitioners don't have the first chance to benefit from hard work because it is more than likely that they are practising in a mediocre school. We live in the era of Mcdojos/kwoons after all, where most traditional arts seem to be taught by dubious instructors, some better than others no doubt but still below the standard that is demanded by the arts they teach. The art has not changed. It is the "instructors" who seem to "improve" it all the time who seem to be behind all the changes.

Yes it is. Based on this same ongoing discussion/argument that has been going on, in one form or another for many months. If it was so common then there would not be an argument would there? And that is because....the REAL big point missed here is what I said before, and that is that there GROUND FIGHTING AND GRAPPLING techniques do not seem to be present in many other Wing Chun lineages/schools. It EXISTS, wether it is on the same level as other grappling arts can be discussed and argued until the cows come home. That is not the argument. It exists but many schools don't teach it as I suspect is the case with Shaolin Kung Fu which supposedly has no ground fighting either. Please see the link provided in my previous post. Yes and in another level it is grappling and immobilisation of the opponent using techniques based on Wing Chun concepts. I.e. ground fighting/grappling. Hitting the opponent when you yourself are also on the ground gives Wing Chun the added advantage over pure grappling arts. I don't know if ALL WC styles teach that nowadays, but of course they should, but I am not talking about just fighting when you are on the floor, I am talking about using ground fighting/grappling techniques based on Wing Chun concepts and methods when BOTH fighters are on the ground and where it is required that the opponent is subdued through Wing Chun ground fighting techniques. I.e. No getting up before your opponent and striking him while he is still down nor resuming combat from stand- up position. All REAL martial arts do. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Most people who practise or at least know about these two great arts know that chi sao and pushhands are not real fighting. As you know, there have been huge discussions in this same forum over wether there is ground/grappling in Wing Chun or at least in some lineages. These discussions came into being because everyone concerned knew that the ground fighting techniques in the discussion did not refer to finishing your opponent when they are on the ground or hitting him when you are on the ground with him. The grappling discussed went far deeper than that, and that is what created the controversy, as otherwise there wouldn't have been any point in discussing the obvious. I did not imply nor say that Wing Chun is a grappling art. I said that there is ground grappling (and standup) in the lineage of Wing Chun that I practise and that it does not seem to be so in most other lineages - mostly based on what I have heard in this forum and others. You could make the same statements about Iron Palm training, does that mean that Wing Chun fighters cannot break bones with their punches? Of course it doesn't. Obviously some lineages and schools will stress Iron Palm more and others less. I am sure that you know that each kung fu style adapts Chin-na and Iron Palm to fit within its own individual concepts and methods. E.g. Tiger Claw Iron Palm training will stress different aspects to that of Wing Chun, hence identifying their methods as Tiger Claw Iron Palm training as opposed to Wing Chun. The same is true when it comes to Chin-na. ....and these, and OTHERS, are the ones that are adapted and become Wing Chun grappling. Of course they are, because Wing Chun is primarily a striking art, no one is disputing that, but its other aspects that include stand up and GROUND grappling which it seems some lineages have "lost". Well I hope so because it seems like I've been typing about Wing Chun grappling for hours. I can actuall show you many wing chun people who cross-trained in grappling. It just proves my point that many lineages/schools do not teach grappling as part of their syllabus and hence and as it is apparent, many of them do not know that it exists. Of course you also know that many Shaolin and Karate practitioners cross-train because they are not taught Shaolin and Karate grappling either in their respective schools and hence are not aware of its existance in their core arts. Of course we all know now that ground fighting does exist in Shaolin kung fu and most of us will know that it exists in the older karate styles. Is it the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon that is behind this? Well, I suspect that this does play a big part, but there are other significant reasons, but I think that I have written enough for now.

I believe that Wing Chun, as taught by authentic schools/sifus and in its complete form, is a formidable art which contains effective footwork and powerful strikes (both hands and legs). The problem nowadays, as with many other traditional martial arts, is there don't seem to be many good schools around as compared with lets say kick boxing or BJJ schools.

they CAN be applied, but many of the techniques can NOT be directly applied. This is obviously because of the different dimensions involved between standing and being on the ground. The techniques need to be modified in order for them to work, as that's not what they were intended for. Fighting on the ground goes against CMA mentality. ground grappling in mantis is not from mantis. There may be some schools who have integrated it today (which is great), but it is not indigenous to mantis. This goes against their mentality as well. I know several that will dispute it's original existence in WC as well. It was incorporated later. the fact that a few schools do it does not make it a part of the system. It just means that those few schools took the time to look into applying their art to the ground... Notice you said ground fighting, however. This would imply striking and is different from grappling on the ground. this topic is about ground grappling in kung fu... you have just stated the very purpose for using bjj on the street. You have also stated what we have been saying - most kung fu ground work is striking based. ALL kung fu styles likely have that in some form. That, however, is not ground grappling. Ground grappling in the street is NOT for making people "tap out". I'm sure you realize that it takes much more time to tap someone out than it does to break his limb, choke him out, etc. Why? pressure. If we are in a competition, I will apply pressure slowly and with control, so you have a chance to tap before I hurt you. In the street, this is not the case. At the club I bounce at, I have choke people out - takes about three to five seconds. In competition you don't actually want to choke the person, so you do it slower. EDIT: I just read ovine's post and noticed he explained the mentality I mentioned. He also mentioned the different dimensions between grappling standing and on the ground. As pointed out in a previous post. Killing is against Shaolin/Buddhist principles yet it is taught, because the temples dedicated themselves in perfecting the various styles of kung fu as a martial art and this unfortunately involves using techniques that can kill. Killing techniques are part and parcel of any effective martial art as is ground fighting and grappling which exists in Shaolin Kung Fu, and yes even in some Wing Chun and Northern Praying Mantis schools/lineages. For further relevant information please click here: https://www.wongkk.com/video-clips/wrestling/overview.html

And I know what it is it is. It is Wing Chun grappling - using WC concepts and methods - as taught by my sifu and it is a part of our Wing Chun (written) syllabus and is studied during the latter stages of Chum Kiu. It is right now VERY obvious that many other schools and lineages of Wing Chun do not teach it and that is a pity because this aspect makes this art an even more formidable system than it already is.

Heavy muscles may hinder your internals in your internals in your kung fu practise. What does your sifu say? I mean do you practise the internals? Chi kung?

Thank you for the info. Do they have a website?

Sorry for the mistake. Now I am curious too.

Sorry, that is https://www.seido.co.uk/london.html

Check out https://www.seido.co.uk/html