Traditional-Fist

I would move inside then block, turn and simultaneusly punch him in the neck/face/throat area (whichever that is more available) and then chain punch until he is no more.

I believe that there is a Wudang kung fu form that is practised by something like five or eight people (I am not sure) against numerous exponents. I saw the performance of this form in a documentary about the Wudang Temple.

I treat my martial arts training like going to school when I was a kid. Sometimes I liked it, sometimes it bored me but I HAD to go and I was resigned to that fact. I am in that mindset when it comes to my Kung Fu training. Of course just like school, if you stick to your MA training/studies the benefits are immense and this fact is my major motivation.

Streetfighing = State of Mind Resulting in violent and immoral acts of aggression carried out by people in possession of the "Streetfighter State of Mind".

They teach you the 5 element theory in Shotokan? That is great. Do you also train a relaxed or "internal" type of Shotokan, perhaps something more similar to Shotokai where the techniques are applied in a more relaxed and flowing manner than they are in most shotokan dojos that I have seen. Pressure point techniques come into their own when applied using internal concepts of energy rather than just hitting a point as hard as one can. Generally speaking the size and sex of the exponent becomes less relevant as a given style becomes more internal. I will check out your site to find out more.

And I hope that they use more appropriate uniforms.

If a street fighter comes against a trained martial artist who has a streetfighter mentality he will loose. When I say trained I don't mean the Mcdojo variety either.

goshinman, Great post. I believe that what makes the so called street fighters "dangerous" is their willingness to dish out unnecessary and unprovoked violence together with strong intent. Whereas the rest of us may need a justification to become very violent, and when it does happen then some of us regardless of our higher skill levels, may not have the necessary intent to see the situation through. I believe this intent and the capacity to carry out extremely violent acts, with little or no provokation, make the street fighters so potentially dangerous. Hence I believe that the "intent" factor should be a major training point in any martial art.

I understand what you are saying. However, in the advanced levels of Wing Chun one trains to hit those spots and studies the points extensively. All the factors mentioned in my previous post regarding the HOWS and WHENS are also studied in detail. This will include a detailed study of relevant human anatomy as understood by chinese medicine. This is done in the Biu Jee level, that is if the sifu decides to teach one the details. Most students will get to learn the more external side of Biu Jee(Thrusting Fingers) and only a few will be taught the Dimmak aspects.

Egami's Shotokai seems to have an internal chinese "feel" to it, eventhough its influences seem to be shall we say, internal Japanese. In the internal styles there is no external conditioning exercises, it is all done through chi (or Ki) development using internal concepts of power generation. External conditionning is even seen as an hiderance to internal progress as differente concepts and theories are used in delivering punches. One will see this when one observes a kung fu punch performed in lets say a Shaolin monks' demonstration and compares it with a typical karate punch. Even the forms (katas) are differente where the chinese ones look softer in general and are more flowing that than their japanese counterparts, eventhough there could be exceptions of course. Note that many Shaolin styles are considered to be on the hard side by some "softer" practioners such as those of Hsing I and Tai Chi. I have seen a Shotokai class and the katas did indeed look "soft" and the movements flowed and this is in sharp contrast to the Shotokan schools that I have seen myself. What am I getting at? Well according to kung fu philosophy, an internal punch is more powerfull than an external one. Its power penetrates and damages the internal organs and its effectiveness is relatively unaffected by the opponent's muscle mass or clothes. The external punch can cause damage but the energy does not penetrate in the same way as the internal. Egami did have a very powerfull muscular body and he absorbed the blows that were delivered very well and was not hurt by them (of course he was not punched in the face). He was more hurt emotionally because he had expected and hoped that the karate punchs would have been more powerful than he had experienced, after all many of the people that had hit him were karatekai with years of experiences and yes even years of makiwara training under their belts, and black ones at that. He researched and his research took him to the conclusion that "internal" power is what it is all about. For the most part it seems that he did not use the Chinese arts as his example but the Japanese arts and philosophies. Important note. He changed the typical two front knuckle karate fist to a Dragon Fist which is not so easilly practised on a makiwara. Anyway, that is my take on Egami and his karate as it relates to Makiwara training. There are more details in https://www.shotokai.com I personally believe that Makiwara practise is usefull and it has been practised for a long time by many great masters. I suppose it comes down to how it is practise and details such as the type of makiwara; the way it is hit - including the punching technique itself used in the training....I.E. You can train "internal" punches on a makiwara as well.

That is good general advice. However, in higher level kungfu training is in styles such as Wing Chun what one learns is to hit the pressure points with the fingertips...not easy of course but that is how it works in many kung fu styles. Many people do not experience these levels, because either they are in the wrong schools or they do not stick to their MA long enough. Also, traditionally these skills are not taught to everyone in a given kung fu school. Of course before one gets to these higher levels of training one should consider hitting the vital areas with as much power and accuracy as possible.

I have bought The Heart of Karate-do by Egami and have just started reading it. I have also watched a Shotokai class and there is definitely a lot of difference with Shotokan in the way the techniques are executed. They have a more relaxed and internal look to them. The research continues......

Usually true kungfu masters don't go out looking for violence, eventhough I am sure that there have been exceptions. However if violence does come their way they will know how to handle it. Historically this has been through political conflict and encounters with criminals, and of course challengers.

Everything being right makes it easier to hit the right pressure point at the right time and in the right way.

I have not seen all of Royce's fights to make any comments that would reduce his achievements. My point was about the particular fight that I had seen. I went further and said that many people who claim to represent TMA's such as karate and kung fu in NHB contests, do not have the proficiency to do so, i.e. Having practised kung fu for 2 years in god knows what school and then going on to pumping muscles, does not usually qualify one as a true kung fu exponent. I am not saying this because these "traditionalists" represented kung fu and lost. I would have been as critical if they had one their NHB contests because they would still be misrepresenting themselves. Further more I know for a fact that Royce has beaten experts in other arts. I just doubt if there were many true traditionalists among them. They might have even been one or two, who knows. I am sure he is capable of doing so. If anyone knows of any please post a link. What I am saying that most fighters who claim to be Kung Fu masters and who enter UFC, are not what they claim to be. This unfortunately holds true for most Kung Fu "masters" outside the NHB arena as well.

Good post. I am one of those who believes that Kyokushinkai karate as a fighting art, is a lot more profound than many people give it credit for. The general view seems to be that all you guys do is sparr and fight in Knock Down tournaments. I have in my possession This is Karate by Oyama and in this book you see an art that is very far removed from the one dimensional system that many believe Kyokushinkai to be. I do suspect that perhaps many Kyokushin schools do not teach this style the way Oyama had meant it to be taught, but this would hold true for other Karate styles and schools as well. I do believe that there should be many good schools around where the true art of Kyokushinkai is taught in all its richness and essence.

Agreed. What the Shotokan stylist lacks in grappling he should be able to compensate for in firepower. However, Shotokan karate, as well as other traditional karate styles, have more grappling techniques than they are given credit for. The problem, as always, is the amount of mediocre schools out there who claim to be teaching traditional karate (as well as kung fu).

Dimmak is real and it is not about KO-ing your adversaries with general blows. On one level it involves knowledge of accupuncture points on the body and on the level it involves knowing HOW and WHEN to hit those points to create the desired affects. The HOW of you hitting those points involves you knowing the most appropriate techniques to use E.G. Wether to use finger attacks or specialized fist attacks such as the dragon fist or the phoenix-eye fist for a particular vital point for example. Also, one must also know the angle to strike certain areas as this will dictate the difference between a successful hit or an unsuccessful one. The type of energy released is another important factor. Ie. you can hit a vital point with all your force and you might cause pain. Where as a high level exponent can give less outside impact to that area but cause more internal injuries. These involve the energy concepts of kung fu, I.E. Correct Chi Kung practise. The WHEN involves you knowing the approximate time of day when certain internal organs of the body are more vulnerable. Furthermore even seasons have an effect on which areas of the body are more prone to injury at that time of the year. Yes it is difficult to hit precise areas of the body in a real situation and so on. However, you will find that the people trained at higher levels of kung fu (and karate) are not effected by adrenaline rushes and panic attacks. They train to USE these techniques and are capable of using them during combat, eventhough most of them never use them because by this stage of their martial evolution they are good enough to finish a fight without using such deadly techniques - i.e. without killing their adversary. And when I talk about people in the higher levels of kung fu, I am not talking about your average instructor who teaches in your local mall. To gain such skills one needs years of dedicated practise with an authentic sifu/master who is WILLING to teach one the higher level techniques of kung fu.

You are right Shotokan is not known for grappling, but it does have grappling techniques. They are mainly "hidden" inside the katas. As one advances through this style he or she will come across these techniques. Of course all this depends wether one studies with a sensei who knows his stuff and who teaches this art in all of its dimensions.

I believe that you have misunderstood my post. The point of what I have wrote is not Royce, for whom I have great respect as a fighter. The criticism was the so called "traditionalists " who "represent" for whatever reason, the TMAs when they enter the various combat arenas. Have another look at my previous post and you will see that there was no disrespect shown to Royce Gracie.

Hello, I believe that many people in the forum practise Shotokan. Eventhough, I am a Kung Fu man I have a fascination with the various styles of traditional karate and as a result I do a lot of reading on this art. Recently, I have come across a website about Shotokai, a derivative of Shotokan shall we say. Shotokai was developed by some of Funakoshi's own disciples and claims to stick to budo and not the sporting aspects that are so prevalent today. An important point and diference between the Kai and the Kan schools is that the former tends to be "softer" in the execution of techniques and believes that is where the real punching power comes from. This sounds very much like the internal power concepts of Kung Fu. Having said this I have not seen references to Chinese martial arts regarding this softness in shotokai. This softness seems to have come about when Shigeru Egami, one of Funakoshi's top disciples felt that the karate punch as practised at the time lacked real penetrative power when applied to other practioners as opposed to breaking bricks and boards. This led to him researching the various techniques involved and seeking inspiration from Japanese philosophies. He seems to have had reached this soft approach without having gone back to the roots, i.e. China - at least so far I have not read any references to this in the site. Anyway, this is what I have undertood from the site and it is a big site. So have a look and say what you think. Here is the site: https://www.shotokai.com

I would really like to know what kind of kungfu your instructor practised and with who. I would say that if one studies deligently any of the major styles of kung fu with a real master or a competente instructor, then he will be an effective fighter after 3- 5 years, depending on the style. After 15 years he would be plain deadly.

Alternatively, you can stick to Shotokan and, if you are in a good school, you will see in time that what you are learning is not just about punching and kicking and that there are grappling techniques in your style as well as other surprising aspects. You will also see that the final aim of Shotokan, not unlike many other TMAs, is to give you the ability to flow and adapt to any situation, that is, once you have gained the necessary expertise in this art.

I believe that all major TMA sytems train for real fighting unless they are practised in a Mc Dojo. Most of the old training methods such as forms and one steps were trained as a part of the whole system to prepare one for real combat. What the UFC's have achieved is to show the damage that has been done to TMA's by commercialization, where so many so called experts/masters etc. having opened mediocre MA schools (Mcdojos - from the worst to the best in the range) had gone on to create a generation of "traditionalists" who could not fight their way out of a paper bag, let alone NHB events. There seems to be the notion that the only way to be a good fighter is for one to cross train and use "modern" training methods. Some of the "traditionalists" have bought into this as well. It is not uncommon to see some of them bouncing around during combat and perhaps even attempting to use striking techniques that were designed for different types of stances/foot work, ie. the none bouncing variety. Not so long ago I saw a video clip of "kung fu expert" who represented the Shaolin Five Animal style getting his butt kicked by one of the Gracies. He had no kung fu stances as he was bouncing like a boxer/TKD stylist. There did not seem to be anything that looked remotely like kung fu, specially the Five Animales system, not unless they have added the Kangaroo technique of bouncing yourself to oblivion, without my knowledge. Of course what people see is "kung fu man defeated by Mr Gracie". Their conclusion? All those traditional training methods and forms don't actually work. Wrong conclusion. They don't "work" because: 1. More often than not they are taught by instructors who at best are mediocre, resulting in their students barely scratching the surface of the arts they are meant to be practising. 2. Many times they are studied by students who do not have the patience nor the desire to commit the many years necessary to master or at least become proficient in these arts. So what do they do? They leave these arts having hardly learned and understood the basics. they dable in other systems which may result in them becoming competent fighters but not competente traditional martial artists, because when they fight they are not using TMAs, what they are using is sometimes a hybrid of their own making. This only becomes a problem when these "traditionalists" decide to represent themselves as REAL traditionalists hence giving the wrong idea to Joe the public or even other martial artists, of what TMAs are all about. Suffice to say that this type of "Traditionalists" help the comic arts more than the real traditional martial arts....and that is very unfortunate.

But you do participate in contact fighting/training in many TMA schools.