Traditional-Fist

Amen!

I am surprised that you don't know what a makiwara is, because it is used very often by Okinawan karate stylists to condition their hands (arms and even feet and legs) and develop timing, accuracy and power for their strikes. I thought that they would be used by Shorin-ryu stylists as this is an Okinawan style of karate. Anyway, makiwaras usually come in the form of vertical wooden poles with a rubber top part covered in leather. The practitioners stand in front in various stances, and punch and kick the pole to gain the benefits. Some masters recommend the daily use of makiwaras to get maximum results.

Wing Chun Kung Fu

Why no kicking below the waist. Why does the WC guy have to fight with the boxer's rules?

Interesting, eventhough I can't imagine Yip Man doing Chi Sao wearing a red cap and black bermudas. One would think the instructor would wear something more appropriate, at least for a video shoot.

Shaolin Kempo and Chuan Fa = KUNG FU.

My sifu does not have an ounce of fat on him. He trains about four hours a day and that is before he gives his first class and then he accompanies the students in the conditioning exercises. I am sure there are others like him out there.

If your kungfu school is good then stick to kungfu. If you are in a hurry then take up Thai Boxing as you will develope fighting abilities faster. If you are patient and if your instructor is good I believe that you will get great results from your Shaolin training. Whatever you do I believe that you should not mix the two.

In many karate styles and schools white belts do not spar. The students go through various types of fixed sparring before they come to free spar. Of course their training will include kihon and kata practise to create the abilities needed to eventually spar effectively. This means that the students must first learn their basics and their applications. This in turn gives the students confidence and helps them RELAX more when they eventually have to spar.

Anyone can say anything they want specially when the person they are badmouthing is dead and cannot respond.

Gumbi, My comment on fighting effectiveness was in reference to karate combat and not UFC style mixed martial arts. Like Sauzin wrote - to know the best fighters one might need to travel a little bit and not just to Okinawa but also to Japan, China, Malaysia, Taiwan, Thailand etc. It is worth saying that many Traditional MA experts do not feel the need to prove that they are the "best" by participating in commercially organized contests and by beating another human being to a pulp. Many of them do however accept challenges and this has always been part of the traditon in many parts of the orient. Fighters/masters have many times settled their "doubts" in this way. And no, the UFC fighters are not the best fighters in the world. However, they probably are the best fighters in the UFC.

markusan, In Wing Chun the centerline is always protected. Attacks on the peripheries are dealt with by turning and facing the attack and the point of contact WITHOUT exposing your own central line. Typical example: As you block a hook attack, you turn towards that attack while your other hand is hitting your opponents centraline - eyes, nose, throat/neck area solar plexus. An advanced WC exponent can also use an effective low kick during the above counterattack. In Wing Chun as in many other kung fu styles the central line, which contains some important vital points, is protected sometimes obsessively, because it is regarded as suicide to leave this line unprotected. For more general info on Wing Chun have a look at https://www.shaolin.com/wingchun_martialarts.aspx You can also search the net for more specialised sites on WC.

Sevenstar, I agree with you. But let me stress many techniques and concepts may be shared amongst different martial arts, the difference is in the levels involved as to how those techniques are applied and in how "deep" these concepts are taken. I.e. some arts may just scractch the surface of some theories and concepts whereas others will practise them in immensly profound ways. This is the difference that cannot be overlooked. This difference is also reflected in the longer time periods usually required to master traditional MA's such as classic kungfu and karate. For example, one can argue that there are tai chi principles in most sport martial arts. There may be some truth to that. But how deeply are these principles followed? Does this mean that boxing and TKD are the same as Tai Chi? Of course not. Tai Chi is an immensly rich and powerful martial art and in comparison to sports martial arts it takes a very long time to master or at least make applicable in combat. [it can also benefit the physical and spiritual health of its serious exponents in ways that sports MA's never can.] Wether the sport MAs name (or not name) any given tai chi or other kungfu style's principles that they may possess becomes irrelevant, because for the most part they don't delve into these deeper concepts to any great extent in comparisson. What most of the sport MA's delve into are the more general concepts such as defense, attack, sidestep etc. which of course exist in the traditional MA's. I suspect this to be true when iit comes to the Central Line theory when it come to some, but not all modern martial arts. Some sport MA's may use deep stances for training. So they may say "hey, we have deep stance training just like the traditional kungfu styles, but we don't use any fancy names for them" But see if any of them can deliver a telling blow from any of these "impractical" stances and you will find that many won't even know that some of these "too" deep stances (including the horse stance) can be used in real fighting to deliver powerful strikes. Same stances but different levels of practise - knowledge and understanding. Anyway I am going on and on.

Amen to that.

By the way, there is a second part to that article on the same site. It is worth a read if you haven't read it yet.

Point taken, however as you said "on SOME level it's all the same..." what I would like to say is that the difference in the OTHER levels can be infinitely more significant than a mere similarity between certain physical applications. I am talking about aspects such as stance work, various types of tension/relaxation and even the different types of breathing involved (different concepts of chi), when applying the same techniques which may or may not have their western counterparts. Even amongst oriental martial arts which may have much more in common with each other, many times techniques that look similar will ONLY look similar, because of the factors mentioned in the previous paragraph. In kung fu there are punching techniques that look like the familiar karate punches. That is, IN one LEVEL. In practise however the delivery and the projection of power, and hence the penetration of energy is very different from one system to another. And these are two arts that are infinitely connected to each other. Now imagine the differences in a kung fu hook punch to the head and a boxing one. Eventhough we are human beings and our fighting systems have common denominators it would still be unwise for the MA community to ignore fundemental differences that exist among different fighting styles, inspite of certain similarities or percieved similarities.

Venrix, According to some of my reading regarding the great Mas. Oyama, he did fight wrestlers and judo men and he did indeed defeat them. He was probably never taken to the ground by them because he hit each one of them ONCE and that was enough .

That's cross-training for you .

And a lot of them don't .

After many years of practise we will all hopefully "create" our own style. I am not saying that we will invent a new one but that after mastering a genuine style we will evolve it and make it "our own" without loosing touch with its genuine essence, techniques and principles that were put there by its original founder(s).

Chin-na can be used in ground fighting and very effectively I might add. If the fight is taken to the ground there are many kungfu techniques that can be adapted to ground fighting and they include Chin-na, which bye the way is easier to adapt to ground fighting than some of the other techniques in kungfu. My own kung fu sifu has used Chin-na successfully on the ground.

Sevenstar, I believe that we are entering the realm of opinions here. However, as far has hitting the temple example is concerned what I am trying to get across is hitting someone on the temple is more likely to have leathal consequences than hitting him in the jaw. If my training is aimed at hitting the temple (and other such targets) then it is consequently absorbed by my muscle memory/subconscious then I do not see any reason to add what I consider to be an irrelevant dimension to my training when I can use the time and effort to better and improve everything else that I need to learn and absorbe in Wing Chun. I would further argue that many, but of course, not all traditionalists who cannot "fight" have waisted their time in watered down "traditional styles". Sevenstar wrote: "you're really not watering down anything, especially not from a wing chun standpoint." I believe that your definition of Wing Chun is VERY different from the Wing Chun that I practise.

Just like to add that something that someone else also mentioned and that is the fact that contact sparring brings in more reality into sparring. Another important point is that to be an effective fighter one has to balance out his sparring training with the other aspects of karate including kata, makiwara and potent conditioning exercises - both for the body and the spirit. I would say that if your training has maintained the essence of the art that is karate then your chances of survival in a real situation will be increased immensly. After all what good is having speed and accuracy (maybe from sparring training) to hit some assailant when you don't have the karate power to put him down with that single (or even a second) blow. Also, the benefits of power are limited when you lack awareness, clear mindeness and the ability to shut out emotion (fear, anger etc.) associated with with a "hot situation". So sparring has its place in karate training but has to be practised correctly and has to be complimented by the other (more) important elements of traditional karate training which are nowadays forgotten by many martial artists who for the wrong reasons concentrate only on the sparring and competion aspects of this great art.

EternalRage, As you implied it all depends on ones own goals. For me versatility gained by adapting to fighting under different competition rules is irrelevant. It would distorte and take me away from the goal of finishing a fight as quickly and as efficiently as possible which is the essence of Wing Chun (and many other kung fu and karate styles as well). However, other martial artists have different goals and necessities and will even benefit from such competitions. Sometimes these tournaments may fill in gaps that exist in their usual training and help them improve as fighters.

fangshi, Good post.