Traditional-Fist

Ground fighting DOES exist in kung fu that is a fact. Another fact is that chin-na techniques ARE applicable to ground fighting. That of course depends on the depth of one's knowledge as well as style and school/instructor. I practise a lineage of Wing Chun (mainland China) that teaches grappling based on Wing Chun's own theories and concepts i.e. Wing Chun grappling. Many people do not know that it exists and some of them, when told that it exists seem to go into some kind of denial. But it does exist and it is taught at the later stages of Chium Kiu level. I had to move before I got to the advanced stages of Chum Kiu and my current instructor does not teach it. However I did see advanced students practising it in my first school. Ground fighting also exists in Northern Praying Mantis and I suspect in a few other major Shaolin styles. The sol object, at least in the Wing Chun grappling, is not to make the opponent tap out, eventhough that is also one possibility by using chin-na techniques to immobilise him. Alternatively the WC fighter will defend himself and use telling ground strikes to finish his opponent, and by this I don't mean mounting his opponent and trying to connect with his covered face for half an hour, I mean one or two well aimed strikes. For those to work other aspects of kung fu training have to be present i.e. (real) iron palm, etc.

Agreed. Add to that a few Europeans as well. The number fake karate styles will continue to grow unless the real karate schools/styles make their presence felt by informing/educating the public at large. How? the answer is not easy, but something has to be done.

I don't think that any authentic kung fu style will train the horse stance as an isolated exercise. However, training the horse stance training may be undertaken on its own as regards to its relevance to chi kung as well as necessary for iron fist training.

or delivering a potent blow.

In Shaolin Five animales the panther and leopord are one and the same. The rest of the animales that you have listed combine with the panther/leopord to make up the five animale system. This system balances the strenghs, internals/externals within the essence of these animales to make up a potent fighting system. Other prominent animales in the shaolin system include the monkey, the eagle and the praying mantis. But these are not part of the five animales system.

Karate has a whole lot of takedowns. They are trained on a regular basis at any dojo that teaches Okinawan karate - if the teacher knows his style well. Okinawan karate is not just kicking, punching and blocking. It's locking, throwing and groundwork as well. Jussi, I just put up your post for some of the posters to read again. If we are talking about karate then we should talk about REAL karate and the way it is trained by many (but apparently, not enough) people. I believe that there is a lot of misunderstanding nowadays about what real karate (as indeed, real kung fu is all about.

Get out of the fight if you can. Of course having said that I have no idea of your fighting capabilities which include your punching power. If you can't get out of the fight then take the fight to the street. Tell him that if he really wants to fight you then he must fight you in the street. I believe that in a street scenario he is less likely to go for takedowns and ground grappling. This is not to say that he won't, nor that the fight won't end up on the ground naturally, but only that it is less likely that he will want to hit the concrete in a street scenario than in an indoor one, at least in the beginning of the fight. He may then be tempted to finish the fight standing up and that should hopefully give you enough time to use what you are best at, which I assume is stand up fighting. I don't know much about him, but I know that he is underestimating you as he considers you the weakest of his challenges. USE that against him. Generally I would say practice as much as you can in the week or so that you have. You need to train to hit his weakest areas with you most powerful strikes. Get a training partner and just train as much as you. Alternatively, if you can delay your confrontation then do so. This will give you more time to train and gain confidence. Other hints. Use only low kicks aiming at knees, chins and the groin area. Keep kicking him and don't let him close. If he gets close and grapples you to take you down use finger, fist or open hand strikes to the throat/kneck and eye region. Scratch his face if you have to. If you get hold of a finger then snap it. Remember that he is the one who is bullying you into this fight and his intention is to use your defeated body as a trophy. If are taken to the ground then try to relax your body as much as you can and continue hitting vulnerable areas. TRAIN this with a partner if you can. The more you tense and panic the easier it will be for him. I have said all that without actually knowing who you are and nor your adversary for that matter, but I hope you find something useful in what I have said. Good luck.

Yes tell us more....

The best tip is to somehow find a good school of gung fu, not so easy nowadays. Second best tip that I can give you is that don't cross train in gung fu while you are doing karate or Tkd, unless you have built a potent base in those styles. Another tip is that you need a lot of patience a dilligence to be successful in kung fu (as in karate). By the way, what style of kung fu are you planning to take up?

Yes, "with the same amount of time in training". Karate takes longer to make effective and no one is denying that. Boxing is a relatively simple art as a result it takes a shorter time period to make it effective. If I recall correctly the original question on this thread did not presume the same amount of training time for both boxer and karatekai. However, I still hold that karate is by its nature a superior art and if trained right, it would beat boxing. My opinion. Again, I am not comparing the average karatekai with the average boxer. Lets say that I am comparing boxing at its best with karate at its best and in a street scenario. That is the only way you are going to get a realistic result. Furthermore, there are karatekai who still practise hardcore, i.e. they do resistance training and they fight hard using a greater variety of techniques than the "average" karatekai and a hell of a lot more techniques when compared to any boxer (high and low kicks, greater variety of punching and bareknuckle at that, plus openhanded techniques, grappling, takedowns and even in some cases (okinawa) groundfighting. I am not even going into karate's fighting concepts and principles, internals and etc. Their training involves a lot more than "going through the motions" That is what I am talking about ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. That is, we are not talking about the average boxers training in an average gyms, that generally provide better training than an average karate dojos Vs. the average karatekai who more than likely will be training and "going through the motions" in a Mcdojo. We are now talking about well trainned boxers versus hardcore trained karatekai. Against a hardcore trained Okinawan karatekai (many of whom stress close range infighting) the boxer may have his head taken off or his whole body takendown and grappled on the ground, that is if he does manage to close the range. By that logic you are saying that boxing is not only superior to all karate styles on the face of this planet but also to all the kungfu styles as well. Eventhough being good at performing a few techniques is better than being bad at performing many, in karate (as well as kung fu), one ultimately, comes to drill and use the techniques that work for one. No one enters a confrontation planning to use a zillion techniques. There is a logic to the old training methods, a logic that may not be so apparent from a Western boxing's point of view, but it is a methodology that has worked for thousands of years. To make real karate effective needs a longer timespan than boxing.

One hopes not.

Interesting. I did not know that JKD used such internal concepts. I did think that it touched uppon them but did not think that they delved into them any deeper.

Agreed. A lack of good karate schools does not make karate an inferior art. The art and its various styles are constant and there are schools that teach them the way they are meant to be taught, which in many cases means lethal blows, takedowns, grappling and even ground fighting, and with realistic sparring thrown in. When you put that kind of karate against boxing then the result in many cases should be a forgone conclusion. Just my opinion.

Just a few quick points about Chi: Chi is real BUT it has to be experienced and not speculated on. Those who believe that abilities and functions attributed to chi by reputable masters, are an over romanticization are usually those who have not delligently practiced or do not know anyone who has delligently practiced Chi kung. This is usually because nowadays there seem to be relatively few Kung Fu instructors who are competent in this area. Also chi kung practice requires a lot of patience specially when one is dealing with something that is intangible in the beginning as well as being strange in concept to our western minds Many REAL kung fu instructors (depending on the style) will tell you that you will not get near your full potential in kung fu without the diligente chi kung practise. This is the case for the lineage of Wing Chun that I practice and also for related schools, such as the southern Praying Mantis and other internal styles. Even many so called external styles have chi kung practice incorporated into their curriculum. Chi is not just good posture and correct body mechanics. However, to make your chi flow you will need those aspects in your training. With regular chi kung practice your chi will flow constantly and you will not need to summon it. It will be there when you need it. Lastly, it is not fair to dismiss chi as mambo jumbo. It forms the basis for the kung fu (Shaolin, Wudang, etc.) systems, which are arguably the richest and most profound martial arts on the face of this planet [i have not even mentioned Chi's significance in traditional chinese medicine].

My sifu is my physical therapist. I believe that the research and development that is kung fu would have picked up on the "harmful" effects of the horsestance trainning in the past couple of thousands of years. In the relatively recent history of its development in Shaolin and Wudang, kung fu's fighting techniques as well as its health benefits have been researched and improved whenever possible, ie.no guessing or wishfull thinking. Most genuine kung fu practise has health benefits for its practitoners incorporated within the curriculum.

As I said before, I have not seen anyone injured from correct horsestance trainning. None of my kung fu brothers nor my sifu nor his grand master (who is in his mid 70's), who train the horse stance have had any problems with their knees.

Thanks for your reply, but I have the "oyama - the legend.....". I did however come across rumors of an autobiography. These rumors may have been related to references made by Oyama to his own life and experiences in some of his other books. Thanks again. Osu

So we can assume that it was not boxing alone that won him his matches. Boxing alone has many limitations when compared to karate. When I see people representing certain styles in NHB contests, I tend to take it with a pinch of salt. Rather like fighters who claim to be "kung fu" fighters who in reality are not, and consequently end up "bouncing" their way into unconsciousness at the hands of FELLOW MMA exponents.

There are many styles to choose from, but it all depends on where you live and what is available. I practise Wing Chun, it is very practical and effective, and I am very happy with it. It is also probably the most popular Kung Fu style in the west, so that means that you may have a school or two in your area. Other effective kung fu styles include, Praying Mantis (various styles), Baji Quan, Shaolin Five Animals and Choy Li Fut. It is worth mentioning to you that no matter how good the style you choose, you will gain nothing if you pick an instructor who is not a real expert in kung fu. In short, do your research and find out as much as you can before taking the final plunge. Hint 1. Try and avoid schools who claim to be the "new and improved" versions of traditional arts. Hint 2. Avoid the "new" Kung Fu styles. This is just a marketing tool used by "instructors" who did not have what it takes to master any of the traditional styles. They gain some basic knowledge and then "invent" their own style and proceed to make money from people who do not know any better. Hint3. Avoid also the schools that offer you short cuts. Kung fu practise and mastery means many years of hard training. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Good Luck.

Good point. That is how I practise the horse stance as well - which is both for external and internal training. So far I have not seen anyone injured, if anything this training, if done CORRECTLY or at least under the supervision of a REAL kung fu or karate instructor, strengthens the knees.

Very interesting post and thank you. Could you tell me if the Mas. Oyama biography that you referred to is an autobiography? And if so can you tell me what it is called and where I can buy it. Thanks in advance.

Like anything else nowadays you have to check the source of the black belt. It is not fair just to disregard blackbelt holders as worthless fighters because of the Mcdojo epidemic. A well earned black belt gives the wearer credibility. And if you know the source of that black belt i.e instructor/school/style, then you know the value, or the lack of, that black belt

Fight of the millennium . ....And probably a short one at that.

Have a look at the following link for the Goju-Ryu school that I mentioned mentioned in my previous post. The school teaches traditional Okinawan Goju-Ryu and the instructor is Shihan Gavin Mulholland. https://www.goju-karate.co.uk Then click on "courses". In general a karate practioner's strenght is stand up but he trains more take down techniques then a boxer, as mentioned in my previous post. The boxer on the other hand does not train takedowns in any potent way nor does he train defenses against karate take down techniques eg. sweeps, leg grabs etc, etc. And on the ground, a little arsenal is better than no arsenal at all. Also not forgetting that karate has more techniques that can be adopted to the ground than does boxing e.g. finger, elbow, knee and headbutt attacks. Again of course, there are karate styles that are richer in the ground fighting department than others. Yes, but the karatekai has a richer arsenal in that department, ie. not just punching with hands, but also sweeps, kicks, leg grabs, etc. and does not just train the takedowns, but also how to finish the opponent after the takedown is complete.

Very important comment. I hope that the people here realize the significance of that point. It also holds true for kung fu as well. Many so called exponents of these two noble arts spend their "fighting lives" bouncing around like yo-yos and can not hold their stances if their lives depended on it.