Traditional-Fist

It is more of a complete art than many people give it credit for, because there IS grappling and ground fighting in Wing Chun. Not in most lineages it seems, but at least in a few including the one practiced by me. Anyway, as you said this is not the topic in this thread. I agree with you and the other poster. Wing Chun's aim is to finish the conflict as quickly as possible. If ones opponent is still standing after one connects with him with three direct hits then either one is studying the wrong kind of Wing Chun or he is studying the right kind but is still at a lower level.

There are various lineages of Wing Chun with, sometimes, slight variations in names I believe that particular video was of Wing Tsun. That is basically a Hong Kong lineage of Wing Chun going back to grand master Yip Man (Bruce Lee's teacher, apparently). The video should give you a good idea of Wing Chun as regards to hand speed and certain postures, but of course the best way is to practice and see. If your school is good then you have chosen a good martial art. Good Luck.

That is your experience, so fair enough. However, it is not mine and I practice kung fu. Again, that statement is based on your own particular experience. However, I have met people who I consider superior to any externalist (in a street fight and not necessarilly sports arena). Your opinion. Suffice to say that theorizing helps - amongst other things - one understand various concepts and their relevance to what one is practising. This is specially significant when one's chosen art is as profound and rich as kung fu. I don't disagree with that either, but the profoundness of the way certain principles are delved into in cma make the said principles' effects very different when compared with other arts that are supposed to follow the same principles. Compare relaxation in Hsing I, Tai Chi, or even the branch of Wing Chun I practice to that of the relaxation in Boxing or kIck boxing. In comparison the boxers, etc. are stiff as rocks. Yes the principle is there but the effect is different. The same comparison can be made about rooting. However, going even further, many principles in kung fu deal with Chi and its flow through the dan tien through other chakras etc. These principles are none existant in many external martial arts. And for a kick boxer to say "I breath too so in some way I am doing qi gong", does not cut it. That is my point. This means many exercises done by boxers, kickboxers and mma-ists go against kung fu principles. That is why some kung fu schools do not recommend frequent press/push up exercises. They do however recommend resistance exercises. YOu see, what is being achieved is muscle definition with minimal mass. Muscle mass inhibits the flow of chi. Now without theorizing about this same principle a practitioner who does not know better may spend years using the wrong weight training methods and then eventually end up "backtracking", for a few more years to fall back into kung fu principles, or otherwise stop training all together and join the local external MA club. To fully appreciate kung fu and its principles you need to practice it in an authentic school and for some years. Otherwise we end up discussing what works for you vs. what works for me and their principles. So, it is obvious that we need some degree of tension when we are fighting or even when we are standing up, or else we would just slump to the floor, but that is not the point. The point at one level is a boxers' idea of relaxation versus lets say a Pakua practioners. Truth based on what I have seen myself, including comments made by posters in martial arts forums including this one. You probably have a point there as far as many, but NOT ALL tai chi practitoners are concerned. I am sure that is exacly what some McTai Chi practitioners do and that doesn't surprise me when having seen the amount misunderstandings prevailant in the MA community as regards to Kung Fu, its concepts, theories, principles and practice. Not to mention the lack of good and authentic kung fu instruction. I refer to my training as authentic kung fu, because it is. In some cases I have no idea wether others train authentic kung fu or not, but in some cases I do, usually based on their own descriptions and comments. Mine is authentic kung fu wether it is more or less authentic than others' depends on what they say that they practice. If I see a practitioner of Wing Chun who has the body of Arnold Schwarzneger then I know that my kung fu is more authentic. If someone says that they practice Texan Wing Chun Do, then again I would know that what I was doing was more authentic. If someone has practiced kung fu for 5 years but says that his sifu does not teach chi kung then again the answer is the same. Believe me there are more internals and softness in Tiger than in any kickboxing, boxing, bjj and most if not all karate styles. There are also different Tiger styles such as the Black Tiger, Imperial Tiger and the forbidden style of White Tiger. Your opinion. Fair enough Its your money. I want to take up badmington classes to learn badmington and I will be spending a few hours a week to learn it. I know if I practice it I will learn it. Badmington is a valid sport in our culture. Is that faith? In China, and as I have stated before, chi, its cultivation and circulation have a cultural basis up to the point where their medicine is based on its concepts. So, for many chinese it is there already. All they are doing is learning to cultivate it, wether it is for personal health, martial arts or learning and understanding traditional medicine. That is your opinion. I believe some cma-ists can hit those spots in combat and some probably can't. It will all depend on how they were trained. In kung fu a strong spirit together with a healthy and clear [zen] mind are extremely important components in fighting. This state of mind is achieved through meditation and CHI-KUNG practice.

I would suggest that you take up qigong (chi-kung) practice. You may get very good results as long as you find an authentic instructor. Google Wong Kiew Kit and find out if he has any of his international instructors teaching near where you live. You can also find out about other benefits of regular and correct chi-kung practice when you access his site. Good Luck.

From what I read about him, that would be a short fight Yeah, but what a way to reach enlightenment.

Lets see now. If I was suffering from an incurable and fatal disease, where I had lost all hope of survival and had reached a point where the idea of euphanisia had become an attractive one , then I would challenge Mas. Oyama (at his peak) to a no holds barred fight .

That is a difficult scenario. World leaders in general usually send others to do their fighting. So you might end up facing some 8 foot tall Special Forces hand to hand combat instructor.

That was an eye opener, thanks. I always new that these sort of organisations hyped things up, but what I did not know was just how much.

What is the style of karate that you practice? And is your sparring contact or none-contact?

I believe that he was a respected fighter and a second dan holder from Daido Juku style of karate. He did last about 10 minutes with Gracie, which is more than many grapplers and MMA-ists could manage. Kaido Juku karate is apparently a splinter style of Kyokushinkai. They seem to have less restrictions in competitions than the Kyokushinkai people. This means that they can use grappling, groin kicks and headbutts amongst other techniques. I imagine that Kyokushinkai mindset itself was at one time similar to this.

Shotokan-Ryu, as practiced by the Japanese Selfdefense Police is a very contact oriented and effective form of Shotokan. The sparring is full contact with light pads worn on the hands. Fist contact is allowed to the face.

I believe that the move you just described actually exists in Wing Chun, at least in the lineage practiced by me. Wing Chun is a fascinating art that contains a lot of snake influence, specially at the latter stages of study. Of course, it also contains Crane, Tiger and Dragon influences.

ok, then explain to me this "definite system". All i keep finding is be quick, intercept, dont let the opponent have time or room to move... if you read any good kung fu book(Baguazhang or Xing yi, to name 2) you will find the same advice in other words. i have seen most jkd train different from each other, and if you incorporate more stuff than what was trained for originally, you are in fact mixing techniques. i dont see anything wrong with mixing techniques as long as you can make it logical and effective. And I got another question: if Bruce Lee only had one official student in his life: why did that student want to incorporate what he had been taught as something that would work for all other students? if jkd is designed to work for everyone, you would think the person would modify it to fit them. I'm curious because I dont have anything concrete to call jkd other than philosophy. You make many valid points. I would like to think of JKD as a phase one reaches after a relatively long time of training in his chosen martial art, where he will take what works for him and disgard the rest. That is make a given style his own. However, this concept was not invented by Bruce Lee, furthermore, it has existed in traditional martial arts for ages. In my opinion that Bruce Lee just invented the name, Jeet Kune Do and aimed to, shall we say, cut corners, so that instead of mastering a style and then making it your own, you just started to make it your own from day one, using various combinations of martial arts. Wether everyone agrees with the Bruce Lee approach is another discussion. It is a fact though that nowadays there are many, many martial artists that take similar approaches to their training eg. The cross training/mixed martial arts craze. Some were inspired by Bruce Lee and some were not.

Well, lets call it a little discussion.

There is no denying the influence of Western Boxing and Fencing in JKD, however, it is my understanding that Wing Chun was a very strong influence in its development. Also, the principles of being like water; adapting; intercepting are all kung fu principles.

I am not saying that. I am saying the principles involved are different when you look at it from certain levels. A kung fu internal punch has a different kind of power from that of a typical boxing punch. The few deaths that I have seen in the ring were due to accumulation of blows, cultminating in the knock out punch, and usually in the later stages of the fight. So there was no case of two equally trained fighters entering the ring where one of them gets hit and dies. This is at least based on the unfortunate deaths that I have seen in boxing, so there may be exceptions to what I have said. History seems to indicate that boxing trainers have never had any notion of ki/chi as it is understood by CMAs. And again, the typical training principles for ki/chi cultivation does in many ways clash with boxing principles. Your understanding of chi is ultimately based on the authenticity of your school and the depth of its kung fu instruction specially when regarding the internal principals. .....I'll add to that and say that you can alterate bricks, boards and rocks so that they can be broken relatively easily by certain "martial artists", i.e. Parlor Tricks. Of course, as you know, this doesn't mean that such objects cannot be broken, for real, by hightly trained martial artists. I agree with you there. Traditional martial arts have been hijacked by Mc dojos, hence the existance of most (not all), of the parlor tricks, fakes, etc. leading to the present public view of traditional kung fu. I am afraid that I don't need palor tricks to convince me that I, and all of us for that matter, are something more than mortal.

If you are dealing with a profound system of martial arts, then not enough theorising will result in the wrong kind of training which can among other things result in a waste of time and an incorrect understanding of ones chosen martial arts. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. You can still have principles that contradict each other, see my post above. You can also have principles that are more profoundly dealt with in one style, while followed basically in another. No insult was intended. I was just stating a fact that is true as far as many modern practitioners are concerned. Your opinion is based on your own experience of kung fu and it is to be respected. So should mine, which is based on my own experience of authentic kung fu, which is my chosen style of martial arts. Ok, no qigong = no internal power = no kung fu (even when "external" styles are concerned) The "only body mechanics camp" are-from my experience- in a small minority. Wether it is bioelectricity or unexplained internal energy does not really matter in the end. It all comes down to internal energy in the end. Traditionally you are not really shown such things, however, you are not expected to just have faith in it either. You are expected to practice diligently and to experience it for yourself. Wether you chose to or not of course it is up to you. The higher the internal element, then the more authentic and high level the kung fu style/teacher [the traditional view, not just mine]. I have seen it and felt it. I have been hit by external blows and internal blows and there is a difference. It has nothing to do with faith. It doesn't work that way. I am also cultivating my own chi. I experience energy flow in ways that I have never experienced before and that is due to my qiqong practice. And he wasn't really trying to hurt your friend. At higher levels there is a lot of chi in chi-na. Because you are perfecting a fighting art. Also, good chi circulation is good for your health , mind, body and spirit. Some things will always be kept hidden , because to be understood well,they have to be experienced. Just like Chi.

If broken rhythm refers to breaking the opponents rhythm, then we are talking about kung fu principles. The same goes for moving second and striking first. A lot of Bruce Lee's principles are kung fu principles, including the one about being like water. Wether he forgot to mention that fact or wether he mentioned it but nobody was listenning, I don't know.

It is my understanding that the TKD adopted that from karate. For kung fu traditionalists kung fu and qiqong are inseparable. In my kung fu training I have never taken a grading, neither in Brazil, nor in the UK. Traditional kung fu school. Good or bad? Right or Wrong? It depends on the person. However, in this case it is just tradition with its reasons. In many traditional schools, it could take a few years (depending on frequency of training & personal ability) before foundations are built for an student to be allowed to sparr. This is ensure that the student uses the correct kung fu stances and techniques to fight rather than, among other things, bounce around, as is so often seen in "modernized" traditional martial arts. The building of listening/feeling abilities and softness, and their enhancement, as encompassed in Chi Sao can never be overstressed. Chi Sao should be practiced in all sessions. At higher levels Iron Palm training is Chi Kung/Qiqong. I.e. Without correct breathing and procedures one will only harden one's hands and not much else. Thank god. Even using the complex techniques should be possible without one digressing from ones roots and hence the kung fu principles that go with them. Of course, this will also depend on ones level of skill and the quality of ones instructor/school. Many kung fu traditionalists regard the modern wushu aspect of kung fu training as a weakness, in so far authenticity and/or levels of fighting effectiveness are concerned.

You may find this link interesting allthough I did find the author's final conclusion a little silly: https://www.crane.50megs.com/index6zi.mht If the link does not work, type in the main site and proceed to find the article titled "super human conditioning and its irony".

You did good.

Then it would all depend on the amount of your internal/chi kung training. Did you do extensive chi kung in your kung fu training? If not, then your definition of softness will be different from that of a typical authentic kung fu school, keeping in mind the differences among various styles. My point is that even the internal training in karate or at least most karate, is HARD when seen from most kung fu perspective. What you describe here is rare. I have had contact with traditional Shotokan and the three step sparring was standard practice. Even Goju-ryu karate, which by all accounts is older and hence more traditional than Shotokan uses three step sparring, at least Morio Higaonna's schools do. So why do they seem to prefer going back to block and then come back for the counter attack? Why don't they fight like their kata? I have seen that in Shotokan during my relatively short time of practice in this style. But this is very different from what happens in kung fu. And as I said before, the blocking is very hard and "dead" , looking at it from the kung fu perspective. Not all "soft" blocks in kung fu are passive. You can actually break an opponents arm with a soft block, and more often than not cause severe pain. My above comment was directed at fellow forum members who practice karate. In their modern versions (largely, but not exclusively, for western consumption) they are more similar but not in their traditional version. Your kung fu school may have been modified for western market/culture. Did you do extensive chi kung training? Did you delve a lot on details? Were there gradings, or were you just informed of your progress to the next level by your sifu? Did you sparr day one or did you have to master the techniques and build a solid foundation in techniques and rootes before you were allowed to practice sparring? Any sticky hands? Iron Palm? Did your sparring contain the now famous "bounce" so common in many modern tournaments, or did you actually have to use the techniques and stances from the forms and or their variations? You don't have to answer all these questions. I am only trying to build up a picture of what was involved in your kung fu training. When I had problems with my transition to Wing Chun, I thought the problem was mine. Then my sifu gave me a written text that was part of the syllabus that warned that transition to WC from karate as well as other external MA was hard. Having said that, I have seen WC guys in london that seem to throw hard/tense punches, in par with any karate style. Wether what I saw was real WC is not the point here. And as I stated before, transition to the "harder" styles of kung fu may be easier, eventhough, most if not all of these styles will have more inbuilt softness and internal training than the typical karate style. Was you kung fu training traditional? The main problem in changing from karate to kung fu is the inherent hardness in most karate styles, including the softer styles. To the untrained eye a lot of the moves may look similar but they actually differ in the way they are applied and in the principles used in their application. Here we enter the realm of the internal elements and their respective methods and concepts. Again, if we are talking about changing from a typically commercial school of karate (Mcdojo) to a commercial kung fu one then the difference will not be so great, they would both be probably as bad as each other.

They don't theorise about them because they don't go deep enough. They only scratch the surface. Eventhough they may, to the not so trained eye, be following kung fu principles such as relaxing during combat on one hand, on the other hand the may be doing extensive weight training which is a big no, no when it comes to chi cultivation, just an example. In such a situation, what is there to theorise? The approach nowadays, at list to me and at list by some of the more modern martial arts seems to be "Hey look I am using kung fu principles but at the same time I am pumping iron using perhaps boxing principles for gaining power, AND I am using another half a dozen principles, infact whatever I can get my hands on principles. I don't theorise because I don't really know, in a detailed and deep way what I am doing, but on some level it seems to work for me, so I am happy with the results." And I say if one thinks that it works for one and one is happy, then that is fine, but one mustn't mix "cross training" in principles for the real thing. People that I know who have trained real kung fu, the so called "external" styles included, with an authentic sifu have all, without exception, come to appreciate the significance of chi kung in kung fu training, including its role in generating power. I.e. No chi kung no kung fu. Chi cultivation works within a set principles ,science if you like, that are the basis of chinese traditional medicine, shared by both Taoist and Buddhist branches of the arts (for the most part). The debates that I have come across have more to do in the effects/effectiveness of various exercises regarding both health and combat not wether Chi existed or what it was. Those kind of debates are usually the concern of the western scientific community who so far are not taking the interest and making the research that they should be making. You are not likely to either unless you find a real master and provoke him enough to use it on you. Even that is unlikely because at high levels masters would not need to use that kind of power. It is more internal than most peoples suspect. It all depends on the deepness of ones sifu's knowledge and of course one's own patience. It is all around us. Both my sifus have it and eventhough, between them, they have been involved in many street/challenge fights, none of them had to ever resorte to rupturing or collapsing anybodie's hearts and lungs. You don't have to believe me on this one because, well, you don't know me nor my sifus. Did he hit you with full power? It is a funny thing about kung fu. When you get to the level when you have developed your chi to a point that it really gives you immense power, you will probably never need to use it. That is because you have become so effective, after many years of practice and dedication that you can take care of most of your fights, even with "trained fighters", without having to resorte to the higher levels of skill. Let me also stress what we are discussing here, and very amicably I might add, is not something that will be demonstrated to one by any master one runs across. I have come across a master, who when asked if dimmak existed, he said he didn't know. When I became his student, he admitted to its existance, he is my current sifu. I.E. Many real masters are not after publicity and sensationalism.

I am cultivating mine. The only way to understand chi is to cultivate and experience it. To be honest, I have never heard of kickboxers, boxers or Bjj-ers or MMA-ists cutivating their chi, and if they do, I doubt wether they do so using none traditional methods. So when it comes to reaching higher levels of chi cultivation I'd rather go to an authentic kung fu sifu, who is an expert in the area and will also know a fair bit about traditional chinese medicine, than go to Shamrock's Lions Den. They debate because they don't know. Those who know don't debate and just practice. And by the way, the only way to know, is to practice (Chi kune) and EXPERIENCE it for yourself. As any good kung fu master, or text for that matter, will tell you, practice it, experience it and then you will know. It is not a question of fate, as is the case in many religions, it is question of personal experience. In kung fu the rooting and the chi element in delivering power are connected. I have said this before, boxers do not root the same way as kung fu fighters because their rooting works with their own concepts not with that of kung fu. I.e. The kung fu rooting functions within the concepts and methods of kung fu, which includes the delivery of penetrative INTERNAL blows, where the impact goes through the body causing internal damage, etc. Also, kung fu practitioners have mobile roots too. They don't theorise about Peng because they only scratch the surface of Peng, i.e. they take the general concept of warding off without delving into profound energy concepts and training that will expose them to more power than they could ever imagine. I do not believe for one minute that one could even mention the application of Peng by a TKD-ist in the same breath with that of a Tai chi expert.