SevenStar

look into bare knuckle boxing (old style pugilism) and you'll see that you actually can't argue that...

Agreed. Situations like that will indeed be rare though, they should still be accounted for. you will not see most of your traditional weapons in the street, but may very well see small knives and sticks. For that reason, kali would do most people alot of good. On a side note though, vs. an untrained person with a stick, I'd still put my money on the muay thai guy.

If that story is true, then it's definitely a shame...

self defense in ju jutsu, not jiu jutsu, right? in JJJ (Japanese Ju Jutsu) you will learn alot of self defense but there won't be much, if any emphasis on competition. BJJ (Brazilan Jiu Jutsu) is VERY competition oriented, however alot of it is self defense applicable, as is Judo. My reccomendation would be to go check out both clubs and see what you like best.

1. work establishing and maintaining positional dominance 2. work escapes 3. learn submissions. A submission is useless if you can't get the positioning you need to pull it off, or if you are even unable to recognize the opportunity when it arises.

The life span of the practitioners will prove nothing, because very few adults out there who started MA training after their teen years will ever get attacked in the street. Consequently, most of them will never really have to use their skills. As far as being in the ring, it's the closest thing available to being able to test your skills in the street, and while they are not the same animal, the skills techniques you learn to apply in the ring WILL transfer into the street - learning how to deal with taking a hit and the adrenaline rush, hitting a fully resisting opponent at full speed, etc. These are things that you WILL NOT learn from semi contact sparring and self defense drills. Bottom line: self defense drilling, full contact fighting, competition, kata, etc. are all smaller parts of a bigger picture. All of them complement, but are not whole on their own.

Not all TMA train that way. In most people's experiences (at least most of the people I know) Most of them DON'T train that way. It's not hard to believe that your school trains that way, however, it'd be VERY hard to believe that ALL of them train that way, as you state in your generalizations. Also, just given the very nature of the art, the avg mma will tend to train harder than the avg cma.

I sense a complex here - the last few posts were not about mma being superior, but yet you are still dwelling on it... why?

MARTIAL art.... IMO, if it teaches fighting, it classifies as martial. I am one of the ones who believes that the spiritual side is not necessary. That's what I have a church for.

japanese jujutsu, correct? whether or not you randori in jujutsu will vary from school to school, I'd imagine. as for randori, that's not just groundwork - it's stand up too - basically, it's free sparring.

even speaking on combat vs. modern, when kano was developing judo, his judo players mauled the jujutsu guys because they were able to randori and the jujutsu guys weren't. Also, their training wasn't as focused, as they had more techniques to work.

1. The shaolin temple is now closed. 2. the monks train modern wushu now, mostly 3. there goes the "my teacher is awesome" thing again. Can YOU fight like Masaaki Hatsumi?

There's a whole lot more - that's not what mma is about. that's my point. How many of those will you actually use? not many. you will use the ones that you are comfortable with from using on a regular basis. If budo taijustsu has similar footwork to other japanese styles, then it's not that different, other than the stances. That's the biggest load of BS I've ever heard. If you think that, go fight a smaller mma guy -you'll be surprised. if you train taijutsu, you know how the body works - you know very well that what you said is false. I'll give you that one - chances are though that you won't have a katana, manriki gusari, bo or anything else on the street. And I don't need classes to know how to use bricks. Many mma however have trained in some other style. I've trained in kali and in longfist, so I'm versed with knives, sticks, staffs and swords. Most MA are mixed - all of the chinese styles are, jujutsu is...the list goes on. The problem comes in when people teach things and have never really had experience there. For example, I'd never train mma with someone who'd never had an mma fight. The other thing is that nowadays, alot of tma are corrupted by too many things - the legends of their grandmasters, chi, etc. all the mystical BS and philosophy - it takes away from the martial side. One of the best fighters I know is a friend of mine who was born and raised in Japan - he's been training in karate all of his life, but his training was very different from alot of what I see today. I know all about hatsumi - really talented man. However, I don't care about the death matches his teacher had. why? because you all aren't fighting death matches. you don't know that YOU can use those same techniques if need be. On the same token, I can't say "Yeah, I train at one of Royce's schools and also trained under adriano lucio, so my grappling is as good as theirs" - that would be false. I've never said mma is the only way to go, however it's a darn good one. I will, however say that I put more stock in it than I do in alot of what is commercially taught today.

I haven't read Green's comment, but I will comment on what you said above... people are always talking about combat experience of the masters of their style... that's fine and good, that just because they had that experience doesn't mean that the person teaching you does - they may have never had a fight in their lives. that's one advantage that mma has over some tma - tma has too many techniques. while the mma is doing the same 10 or so hand strikes, the tma guy has about 20 or more hand strikes, meaning that you have many that you will not use that often. The ones you don't use that often will also be neglected when you are fighting. I fear the person who trains 1 technique 1,000 times more than the guy who trains 1,000 techniques 1 time... Once again, that's an advantage. Because of competition, they can train full speed and power, and test themselves in the same manner - and what they are training are techniques that are effective in the street. the "deadly techniques" practiced in TMA can't be practiced at full speed and power, which isn't advantageious to the tma maybe, but are tma today training for the survival of their clan? nope. is it a matter of life or death to them? nope. and it most likely wasn't that way for their instructors, and possibley even their instructor's teachers either. consequently, there is no special warrior training that tma undergo. unles you've been in war, you are no warrior. there is no best ma, that's true, but he can say that it's one ma if he wants to. mma is fighting that follows a format - striking and grappling.

MACMAP is the martial arts program that the marines follow. there is a ranking system - the first belt is tan, the second is gray, and you can progress beyond that. From what I've heard from various marine friends, the emphasis varies. I've got one friend who is doing mainly standing and ground grappling, and I've got another friend who is doing mainly striking

it's not always up to the instructor - it may be up to the style. When I was in kali and jun fan, you had to be at least 15 to even start training. In Judo, at least according to the USJI, you have to be at least 15 to get a bb. (still to young, IMO though)

I was in the 8th grade when I started teaching. However, who says that they have to teach, just because they're black belts? I know a few adult black belts who are great martial artists, but you would never want them to be instructors. Sure, they have an extensive knowledge of the martial arts, but they haven't the foggiest idea how to spread that knowledge on to someone else. It could be due to poor leadership qualities, or maybe they have a natural teaching inability (kind of the opposite of natural ability). "A Black Belt does not an instructor make." I do agree. For that very reason, I would never promote anyone to bb that didn't have at least SOME inkling of how to teach - it would be a pre req. When I was in longfist, we began at blue belt - blue belts would conduct the class warm ups and assist with kids clases. at red sash, you were teaching kids classes. In judo, I am now a sankyu brown belt - I help teach classes. In BJJ, blue and purple belts teach. When/if I decide to run my own club, it will be conducted in a similar manner to the places that I've trained.

It's rightfully theirs when they posses the attributes - both physical and mental - that a bb should have - a kid just will not have those physical attributes.

Aznkarateboi said: "TJS, so you are denying that point sparring helps develop the skills that I mentioned? Or do you deny that those skills are useful in a real fight? Would you please bother to explain why, instead of giving some faulty evidence? About your evidence, you seem to think that because most point fighters will get defeated handily in a NHB ring by what you call a "real fighter" (which is probably a NHB fighter), they suck at fighting in reality. Sorry, but I am afraid to say that you are wrong. First of all, most "real fighters"/NHB fighters are a combination of boxing and HEAVY on grappling skills. If you bothered to do a bit of research, you would discover that NHB rules DO favor grapplers." You are allowed to kick you are allowed to punch you can knee you can elbow you can lock you can throw if you are stalling on the ground, they may stand you up In the early UFCs eye gouges were allowed (Royce himself told me so) You would get a penalty, but if the person couldn't continue, then you would still win. The rules are fair enough for anyone to compete in mma, not just grapplers. If you notice, there are stand up guys who do just fine - liddell is a perfect example. Mo smith is another.

you can do it. train hard. train right.

inclines and declines are unnecessary - flat bench is all you need. Have you seen a diagram of the pecs? the "upper", "lower" and "inner" pec are so close together that you can't work one without working them all...

Isn't getting in the ring and fighting the majority of both Thia and regular boxing's training. If so then the effects that treebranch spoke of would be common in people who spent a good deal of time training in these fighting styles. To simplify: You can not train in boxing effectively without getting hit in the head alot. You can not train Thia effectively without being hard on the legs and joints. Of coarse not everyone who trains in these styles will have severe damage from it. As far as which to choose between TMA and MMA. I would say that you should choose something that emphisizes your strengths and minimizes your weaknesses. If you are smaller or weaker something like aikido or hapkido could be effective for you. If you are bigger or stronger something like judo and/ or a striking art would enable you to use your natural advantages. FYI With proper training most men can retain a great amount of strength well into their older years. Older does not mean weaker! Robert The assumption you are making is that they will be training full contact constantly- that's not the way they train. Pros don't even do that. You'd be training full contact 1 - 2 times per month, maybe 3. Small guys can do judo just fine. Older does mean weaker, but it's relative to the person. Obviously, I will be weaker when I am 70 than I am now. I bench press 280 now.... I gurantee you I won't be doing that at 70. I may be stronger than younger guys who train little or not at all when I am that age, but I will be inferior to a well trained guy, strengthwise.

nothing magical...physical. When I was 17, I used to take full power kicks from 13 and 14 year old black belts just to show them that they weren't strong enough to hurt me. At the time, I was an orange belt in shotokan. They had better technique in forms, but I had way more strength and knew enough to kill them in sparring. Now, think of them on the street. At BB, they have the confidence that they can defend themselves if need be - at such a young age, you will have trouble regardless of your training just because your body isn't mature. Aside from that, there are other things, like teaching - how well can a 6th grader teach someone?

who cares about their groin? they are off balance - step in and sweep them... oh wait - you can't do that in point sparring, so you probably didn't think of it. Look at point sparring rules - you can jump in the air and backfist a person on top of the head (yeah, I've seen it done) you WILL get a point for it. In real life, you only reward would be broken ribs. All of the attributes you mentioned will also be developed in full contact fighting, and the competition is more conducive to what you will be experiencing in the street.

Ive done full contact and grappling, but no mma matches to date, other than a challenge match I had with someone in college.