SevenStar

"similar?" My suggestion would be to forget similar and go for actual. You're defeintely on the right train of thought, but I would actually go train with a grappler, not someone who is trying to do a few techniques that "look similar" to what a bjj guy would use.

The avg sport fighter that I know trais his butt off. Why? because he knows that every competitor out there is training just as hard, if not harder. I personally spend 20-25 hours a week training. The TMA guys I know do nothing close to that. I know there are some out there....somewhere, but the avg. sportfighter that I know trains much harder than the avg. traditional guy that I know.

Why would you think they are more lasting? I would disagree with that.

How good are your bobbing and weaving skills? You have to be able to get inside - you can't just wait for him and try to counter. Once you get inside, body shots, hooks and uppercuts.

CMA is very political - just look at wing chun and mantis...

If you are asking what I think you are asking, then yes - you can knee from various angles - upwards, straight, diagonally, horizontally...

several, but you can't learn how to do them from reading about them. Do a search on silk reeling. Do a search on coiling energy. heck, so a search on all that's been mentioned here. When you begin to talk about things as complex as this, explaining them would probably take longer than anyone would care to type.

In my experience with karate styles, they aren't concerned with you looking like a karate fighter, but they want to be sure that you have the basics down pat beforeyou spar. Consequently, you will spend white and yellow belt learning all of your basics, learning the first three kata and doing some one steps. There's one other VERY important factor that I haven't yet mentioned - specialization. TMA tend not to specialize in anything, with the exception of grappling styles. In both karate and kung fu, you learn hundreds of strikes, several throws, weapons, etc. It wakes WAY too long to master them ALL, and due to time constraints, you can't work all of them all the time. This is not a problem in muay thai, for example. a thai boxer may only work 7 punches, 2 elbows, 5 knees and 2 kicks on a regular basis (I'm not including all of the elbows, knees and kicks, only the ones most commonly used) but he has them MASTERED. his forms - shadowboxing - have him repeatedly doing the exaclt techniques he will fight with, as do his other drills - padwork, sparring, bagwork, etc. alot of TMA don't have that same advantage - I have never used a double knifehand block in fighting or sparring, never used a tornado kick, never used a tiger claw, never used a butterfly kick, etc. so my kungfu training methods did not directly reflect the techniques I would be using to fight. For these reasons, IMO, traditional styles CAN and will teach you how to fight, but it may take longer. There is an old shuai chiao saying - "one year of shuai chiao is equal to ten years in a striking style" That saying came about due to the reasons I stated above. By the time the other styles were just starting to learn their fighting, figure out what works for them, master timing, etc. the SC guys were way ahead because they had been doing that from the beginning.

In my experience with kung fu, people are obsessed with how they look while fighting... If you train mantis, you need to look like a mantis fighter. If you are a choy lay fut guy, you should move like one, etc. consequently, you spend time working on the forms, doing one step style cooperative sparring, various drills, etc. to get the essence of the style, so to speak. The theory behind that is that if you start sparring to soon, you will not yeat have the training and the movements ingrained into your "memory" and you won't fight the way a stylist of your art should. I can see the merit of that, but also disagree with it. I look like a thai boxer when I spar - even after 4 years of longfist, I look like a thai boxer - it's those techniques that I prefer. now that I'm back in muay thai, I still look like a thai boxer. However, you can see karate influence in me also, thanks to Yuichi (the guy I was training with). One argument that you will hear from some traditional guys is that the mechanics of TMA are alot more complicated than sport styles. That's simply not true. attend a bjj class and you'll see what I mean. Sport arts work on the mechanics as they are drilling/sparring. For example, in MT, we may work the jab/cross/hook combo. we will do it for a while and coach will make corrections.we will then hit focus mitts, while he is making corrections. we will next drill it with a partner - he will throw the combo, you pary/slip all of his strikes, then throw the same combo at him. you may get hit. If you drop your hands, we will make sure you get hit. And all the while, coach is making suggestions and corrections. When we spar, we have a combination we can use. If it's used wrong, if you drop your hands, etc. you will know...trust me.

In a nutshell, any martial art can teach you to fight. BUT, many traditional systems take longer by nature. They aren't designed to teach you how to fight QUICKLY. That's where people tend to get confused on the issue of whether or not an art will teach you to fight. Traditional grappling styles - wrestling, bjj, judo, shuai chiao, etc. do not fall into that category because the nature of those systems is contact. With sport styles, the learning is faster because it is the nature of the training, as with the grappling styles. you spar and refine your techniques simultaneously. It lends to faster progression. after a year of muay thai, you already have more experience than alot of traditional stylists with the same or slightly more training time, and possibly some fights under your belt. When I was in longfist, you had to be a yellow sash before you were allowed to spar. If you came to class on a regular basis, it would take about 7 months to reach yellow sash. In some of the shotokan schools here, you must be orange belt, which is also about 7-8 months. Then, once you start sparring, it's only once a week or so - the main focus is on kata/forms, learning techniques, etc. When I trained in karate, I trained with a Japanese friend of mine - his regimen was more similar to what the sport styles do - we started sparring early. This post is getting long, so I will post a part 2 to it.

I've actually heard bad things about san soo. But, I have no direct experience with it, and that's beyond the scope of this thread anyway.

I don't put judo into that category. In judo, we do plenty of randori - it's against resistance and not cooperative, like one step sparring is. Judo competitors train the way any other sport competitors do - drill, randori, condition. repeatedly.

as in, can they be taken down, or as in do they practice ground fighting? can they be taken down? yes, of course. do they practice groundfighting? not that I know of.

remember Johnny, the rules of the competitions are different - you can't win by pin in bjj, and in judo, they will limit your groundwork time. That said, still follow johnny's advice, but If you are going to be competing in both, going for a pin isn't necesarily a bad thing. Now, turtling is... don't get in the habit of doing that.

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SC is very much throwing oriented, they don't do groundwork. The main goal is to throw you and incapacitate you in the process. they strike also, which is one difference between sc and judo. There are more mechanical differences also, like SC tends to steal step and use strikes to break an opponent's balance, whereas judo uses kuzushi, hip loading, etc.

you don't always have time to step offline. and good karate does plenty of offline stepping. A close friend of mine was born, raised and trained in Japan, and his sidestepping is awesome. but: 1. you may not always want to step offline 2. when you don't have time to, you need to block or parry, that way you don't get clocked. In muay thai, I have made a habit of parrying/covering as I slip, just in case my timing is off and I take a shot.

The traditional block is an application usually - a grab, then break, etc. It's taught that way to teach you the principle of the application. you don't do the full chamber thing when you attempt to block. Same thing with chinese styles and stance training. Are you going to fight from a deep horse stance? I hope not. In muay thai, will you use the same footwork you use while jumping rope? they are exercises which are meant to teach/develop something.

depends on the style. There are various chinese systems that use the spine to generate whipping power. There are other systems that sue the body's various coils. Similar to the hip torque, but the body has WAY more coiling points than that one. There is thrusting of the hip, as with the muay thai knee strikes, etc.

let's compare and contrast these two arts. Obviously, there are some similarities, but there are also a vast number of differences.

I agree with that.

I've always thought that way....That's not a breakthrough. The challenge is finding traditional schools that train that way.

That's the only other one I know of also.

you know I've had traditional training - we went through all that months ago in a different thread. It's got nothing to do with a badass attitude. Bottom line is there's no real guarantee. what I said was correct. If you don't train weapon defenses realistically on a regular basis, you are no better off against a knife than joe blow. Now, if you do train them constantly, as you say you do, then great. As I stated with the example of the kalista, that's a different story.