TJS

There were a few Back in the early UFC's. Most did not have a huge succes rate.

do you think he tapped out for fun? what is your point? He tapped out becuase he was caught in a choke he could not get out off and would have passed out. end of story..i dont know what your trying to get at. your actiting like Shamrock just decided he didint want to win or something.

Kevin Rosier was a multi time Superheavweight kickboxing Champion Gerard as said was a World class MT/Savate fighter..who even fought in K-1 Pat Smith was a full contact Bare knucle karate champion who had croos trained in several style Shamrock was obviously the real deal. any one of those Misfits could send you to the emergency room in under 30 seconds most likely. no he tapped when he felt the blood flow to his brain stop...it's called a choke...you tap so you dont loose consciousness. Yep..Smith Tapped out becuase Royce was raining down punches to his Head while he had his arms trapped He wasant a Great UFC fighter but he was up there in Kickboxing..Like I said he won the Sabaki Challenge at one point.

pretty similar..Submission wrestling is always done without a GI and usually does not have belts/ranks.

Well I wasant neccesarily Talking about MMA. In Krav Maga you dont spar right away..I still belive it is proabably taught in a quicker manner.

ok make a few comments True Kimo put up a hell of a fight...Kimo also outweighed him by about 100 pounds...that would be like me fighting a 10 year old. Shamrock fought not to loose imo...he went in that fight and layed on top of and controled Royce..he also had a 50und weight advantage. You say he never fought Any great strikers..but -Gerard Gordeau was a world class Muay Thai/Savate champion who showed alot of skill -Jimmerson may have been Ranked 15 or so but in the pro world thats not bad..he also competed in kickboxing at one time i belive. -Keith Hackney was a vicious hitter -Pat Smith was a Hard hitting kickboxer Who Won the Sabaki Challenge in 89 and had an extremly good record..not to mention he knew some grappling. - Ichihara as other said was a well respected japanese Karateka. All of these Guys were up to par in their game...but youur right none of them were up to par with Royce in a No holds barred fight. I honestly do not belive there were any strikers at that time who could have avoided being caught in something...no one had the grapling knowladge I dont think thats a fair comparison..At the Time The UFC basically had no rules..Royce would be limited under boxing rules...a boxer can do 100% of what he knows in UFC..uncluding "dirty boxing" About Tyson I agree 100%..he had nothing to gain and everythign to loose.. But i was using it as more of a point that Roce was not afraid of anyone at the time and proabably would have submitted tyson.

So Michael Jordan Wastes his Time proving to the world how good he is at basketball? Lennox Lewis is also wasting his Time i guess.. Yes, Royce Gracie wanted to Prove His Family's stlye was effective and he did so. Mas Oyama wanted to Prove Kyokushin was the most effective so he traveled to Thailand to do it against the worlds best. Everyone can talk, few back it up. Not Today because they would not be succesful unless they changed their training meathods...Everyone knows this including them. However plenty did in the past. some people like to back up their claims...most dont.

Ok this is Ancient history and im sorry if no one cares...but there has been some talk about this Rescently and I felt like saying something. This is Regarding Royce Gracie and the first Ultimate Fighting Championships. There has been some talk about how Royce didint Face Quality opponets..the gracies were the greates fighters of the time, etc,etc Royce Was picked To represent his Family because he was "the kid brother" Royce was not a professional fighter and he was definetly not as good as some of his older brothers. This is Why he was chosen. Royce weight in at 170 pounds as the lightest man in the tournament and won it with ease. He beat A boxer named Art jimmerson(195 pounds) who was ranked around 15th in the world i belive at the time. He Beat Ken Shamrock Who was had already been fighting in Pancrase in Japan..Shamrock Outweight him by 50+ pounds and despite his solid grappling knowladge was Choked out in 45 seconds. He then Choked out a 215 pound K-1 level kickboxer name Gerard Gordeau He did all of this in one night and people can still say he didint face quality opponets. This Streak continued thru the next UFC's with him beating men of all sizes shaped and forms. Royce Gracie was ahead of his Time...If someone showes me a 170 pound fighter in 1993 that could have beat him then i would eat my words. Royce even publically challenged mike Tyson but it never happend. Once again im sorry for the rant ...I just feel sometimes people try and Downplay what Royce did 10 years ago.

Then Show me 1 single example of one of the stlyes you listed competing succesfully in any type of mixed event.

So why is a stlye that is taught quicker/more effectivly considered a "quick Fix"?

how is MT overestimated?

"like" it is similar

I would stick with a left foot forward stance..

I wouldent go that far to say its "useless" But obviosuly it would be more complete.

san shou is basically Muay Thai with Throws and sweeps.

There have been plently of great strikers in the UFC. Bas Rutten Maurice Smith Vitor belfort Semmy schilt(sp?) Vandelei Silva Pedro Rizzo Mirko "cro Crop" (Pride) Btw Maurice smith was a pivotal moment becuase he showed a striker could win..he did that by learning how to survive on the ground. No one is saying Strikers can win...but ot beat grappling you have to know it.... I am a "striker" by trade..Sprawl and brawl all the way..but you can to know grappling to beat it...thats the end of it. every succesful striker in the UFC has had pretty extensive ground training. Now you are seeing Strikers KO the grapplers Who's striking isint up to par..They do that by learning how stay on their feet(grappling)

Thats because its easier to grapple then it is to keep distantance, stay standing, and fight. Mirko, bas rutten, Vitor, Silva A) the second you extend you arm To do that it's going to get broken(assuming they are a competent grappler) B) some people have extremly conditioned necks...so i would not rely on it. No because people dont like to get put in an Arm bar or a Triangle choke. like andrew said..that favors the person getting slamed. The last point i would adress is this, You keep saying howThe gracies were the best around...etc...The reason They picked Royce to fight is so people could not use this excuse. Royce was the younger brother with the least amount of experience and Proabably skill....he was the "kid Brother" Rickson, Relson (22 time undefeated champion of brazil), rorion etc....they could have all be a diffrent ball game. You are right that the gracies were better than everyone...they were ahead of their time. Btw Royce Gracie challenged Mike Tyson publicly....i doubt there were many people in the world at the time he was afraid of.. I dont think there were any "strikers" at the time who could have beaten him..

Dan Severn Had no Cross training when he fought in the early days..I would say Wrestler generally require the leat amount of cross training. but your right to really accel most of them started training boxing im sure.

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Everything you just listed was Allowed in the Early UFC's..you know the ones where a 170 pound brazilian named Royce dominated people over and over again... Royce never got got hit one..NO not ONCE (excluding his superfight against shamrock)..i would bet money you have never fought a Really good grappler..people always thing they can stop someone before they get a clinch and takedown..it's amazing that people still do. the gloves protect hands not people. so when you can punch,kick, throw,slam, choke, break, knee, elbow someone...that has nothing to do with real fighting ? none of those things would be useful? add to that headbutts, groing strikes, spine strikes, stopming a downed opponet (all things that used to be legal)etc..and it's still not a "real" fight? oh I forgot you cant bite.. I can watch growund work on TV...that dosent mean yor good at it...You and i both know you dont practice it...i know what an arm bar looks like..does that mean i can pull it off in a real fight? no anyone off the street can throw a punch that dosent mean they are good at it. what no biting and no eye gouging? perhaps certain stlyes should not produce "pure strikers" and tell them they are learning effective fighing/self defense? Btw i thought Shotokan had Ground work hidden in it? pride allowes this, as do many other oraganizations such as Vale tudo.

Im like you i always want to branch out and learn new things. But Krav Maga will give you the tools to handle yourself in the street and dont be under the impression that it wont work against fighters...it comes down to the person...Infact a guy from my school just won at SHOWDOWN II her in Austin...he had about a month of BJJ training before the fight..KM has heavy influences from wresltling an JJ as far as grappling goes the standup is basically western boxing with MT stlye Knees/elbows/kicks But there is alot more to it than that.

MT is the real deal in standup fighting.

You learn simple and effective techniques for all ranges of the fight. you dont have to have a huge array of techniques ot have ones that work...look at BJJ even...There are countless submission in it yet in MMA/NHB you see the same few used over and over again(straight arm bar/triangle,rear naked choke, etc) But you can always learn more from more specific styles such as BJJ, Muay Thai, escrima, etc.

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