Bon

taezee, Ray ? I don't know Ray or where Brentwood is.. Maybe you have me confused with someone else ? El Guerrero Loco, lol. Dude, how many boxers do you see with their hands down and they use ONLY their hands ?

Yeap, that's it Carlos Gracie tested and refined the techniques in no holds barred streetfights against opponents from all arts. He was unbeaten in over 400 street fights I think ? The techniques were modified and it's known as BJJ.

ONLY for now while I'm doing my last year of school though. As soon as that's finished, I'll be training in all the dojos in my area. =)

G95champ, yeap it was! I learnt a lot.. I thought I'd talk about physics 'cause most people have never studied it, but as it turns out I don't know what I'm talking about myself. =p I just turned 17 in April. As for the kata, I really can't do anything but agree with it now. The moves really did flow like second nature when I did karate.. Maybe I was doing the right art but didn't appreciate it at the time.. Ah well, my jj will do for now.

Grapplers practice take downs a lot. Also, a lot of the guys who train in BJJ have formal training in other striking arts, so it's not like they're practicing against pure non-strikers. I've seen some nice feints where the guy goes to the head and then quickly goes for the legs practically catching the guy in still motion. The takedowns aren't limited to that, if they get in close and can grab you, they'll most definitely take you down.

I'm a strong advocate of not telling people what art to take and what art not to take. I got started in karate when I was younger and I hated it, turned away from MA for some 5-6 years and now I'm wishing I'd been training all those years. The best advice I feel you can be offered on this matter is to look at what arts you are interested in and what you have in your area. Go to all the dojos a few times if you have to choose an art. Choosing an art is not something to be taken lightly and rushed, a careful decision needs to be made so you don't waste time training, or worse yet, turn away from MA altogether. You may want to consider crosstraining, doing a couple of different arts to compensate for the weaknesses. But, again, that's only if you're interested in self defense. You have to first ask yourself what your goals in relation to MA are, then go from there in finding a style that suits you. If it is self defense, you will need to take into consideration defending yourself against men, so an art that uses power against power might not be what you're after, but an internal art, or an art that redirects your opponent's energy. Good luck to you, and feel free to ask if you have any questions concerning the arts, I'm sure someone here will be more than able to shed some light.

G95champ, you answered my arguments quite well, better than I expected. =p At this point in time, I'll say nothing more on kata until I've trained in it in quite some detail. MonkeyNinja, your point is clear.. Heh. =)

Okay, that is a bad example and doesn't quite fit.. _________________ It takes sacrifice to be the best. There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy. [ This Message was edited by: Bon on 2002-05-26 04:04 ]

That's funny, I was highly amused when I read your post. Firstly, you just said don't do this, don't do that. If that's the case, what do YOU do then if you don't do any of the things you said not to do ? Stand there like the idiot you are I presume. Secondly, I'm also amused by your atrocious english and grammar. You just contradicted yourself. Kicks have longer reach and are used when hands can't reach, so I fail to see why you wouldn't do a kick when someone can't reach you. If you knew taezee's background like the rest of us on these forums you would have never of even thought that, let alone said it. LOL... I won't dignify your argument about being big, anyone with a brain can see that's utter crap pulled out of your ass. You don't think a person who knows jiu jitsu could kill someone if they weren't wearing a shirt ? Being fast is not enough to stop a grappler taking you down either. HOW would you do that btw ? A lot of the takedowns they go for the legs or the feet, and if you don't use kicks because they are slow, what would you do ? Use your hands ? Yeap, you've a lot of experience I can tell. About as much experience as my grandmother on the matter.

I thought this was more a general argument about kata, not about what karate consisted of. I don't do karate, or a traditional art for that matter, so am I excused ? Apart from it making your hits stronger and being able to take more hits. Weight training if done properly, such as compound movements develops fast and explosive power. I don't think I'd really want this for a fight... do you ? ; ) Also, if you lift heavy weights with good form, you could do lighter weights a lot more times. Heavy weights == endurance in a fight as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying it doesn't give a good workout. Almost anything can give us a good workout if we want it to. You're getting sicked tracked and rambling incoherently now. Yes, repitition of technique does allow you to use it as second nature in a fight. But, I would rather drill one technique 1000 times, than drill 10 different techniques 100 times. I'd feel much more confident knowing I have one technique that is solid compared to 10 that are only okay at best. Fair point, taken. The fact that jiu jitsu students and muay thai students are proficient within a year and can kick some serious ass if they want to doesn't show you modern methods are more productive and efficient, thus, traditional methods such as kata for the sake of tradition aren't as productive and effective ? That helps prove my point.. I'd rather get to that 'place' as quick as possible, wouldn't you ? When I'm learning some new math, I want to learn and understand it as quickly as possible, I then do questions to check this. Techniques taught in class can correspond to the new math, and the questions can correspond to the sparring. Fair analogy ? I've a test on Tuesday, I started studying today (Sunday), I need to learn 4 topics within 2 days, I don't want to beat around the bush and fail my exam. So by the same token, would you want to beat around the bush with learning how to fight & end up getting severely bashed on the streets ? History is nothing more than that. History is just history.. Dictionary.com defines it as 'A narrative of events; a story'. If a new technology that allows us to travel faster than the speed of light is created, should the scientists not use it because gravity assisted space flight is the way we got to the moon for the first time & it's history ? Absurd don't you think ? If that technology was ever created, so many theories regarding physics could then be tested such as Einstein's famous theory of special relativity. Do you think we'd forget gravity assisted space flight ? It would be used as a temporary means of space flight and a stepping stone. Kata is not unimportant, it was the best method to learn before, now there are better methods thanks to kata since it has been used as a stepping stone. _________________ It takes sacrifice to be the best. There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy. [ This Message was edited by: Bon on 2002-05-26 03:06 ]

hehe, no offense taken.. I can't say I agree with you entirely though... I don't believe you can judge someone whether they're a true martial artist on their kata. I think you can judge someone by how well they fight, afterall, that's what martial arts were designed for and what they should judge a martial artist on I believe. I think this topic is a little hard to debate, because it seems to me most people argue the points of kata with inductive reasoning, while arguing against kata uses deductive reasonsing like practically everything else. I don't think kata is for me, maybe if I get a really good kata teacher I'll understand it more. At this point, my own combinations come best when I'm just hitting the bag at random. Endurance I believe is best built up with areobic, anaerobic training and weights.. Modern methods are elite, I still think you're doing tradition for the sake of tradition. Maybe you'll agree to a disagree with me though ? =)

Any tournaments that come up I go in..

I don't know much about kung fu, so I'm not really certified to answer this, heh. You'd be best off listening to YODA's, or shaolin's post.. I think kung fu deals with the 'centre line' very heavily.. They always want to be balanced and force their opponent to attack around them with things like hooks, they try to force their opponent to take a longer path to attacking and an indrirect way, that way they can take direct path straight to their opponent, which is closer while remaining blanced.. Ok, I'll let someone else answer this =p _________________ It takes sacrifice to be the best. There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy. [ This Message was edited by: Bon on 2002-05-25 20:08 ]

Not necessarily.. A thai boxer has to get in close before he can use elbows, knees & clinch.. You're saying the more techniques someone has compared to someone else, the better their chances of winning a fight ? I can do a few fancy kicks which aren't from pure kickboxing, does that mean I'm gonna win against a pure kickboxer just because I know more techniques ? The quote I heard on the forum before sums this up nicely.. I do not fear the man who has 1000 different kicks once, but the man who has practiced 1 kick 1000 times.

The UFC has caused a lot of hype since the Gracie brothers have dominated the UFC with BJJ.. Since then, a lot of other fighters have learnt BJJ, beacause it offers a clearly advantageous position against an opponent who doesn't know how to grapple, taking only a matter of seconds to choke someone out, or break their arm. Good thing with BJJ is, you have the choice how much damage you want to cause to your opponent. You could easily break their fingers one by one, then proceed to break their arm if you wish.. BJJ is based around the whole principle of using strong body part(s) against an opponent's weaker body part.. I've said this before and I'll say it again, the arm bar is a classic example, in an armbar, you have your opponent's arm inbetween your two legs while you're flat on your back, you also have your hands on his wrist, you also have your hips for leverage. Resistance is futile, even for the strongest man. All the other techniques are based on this principle, so it does not advocate strength, but technique. It was made by a small man who tested and refined his techniques against hundreds of opponents of all sizes, so JJ works, even for the smallest man JJ students also do a LOT of sparring, probably more than any other MA, so they're used to resisting opponents

G95champ, I appreciate your attempt to explain it to me.. So far, I'm only hearing what it does, not HOW.. That's the part I can't get my head around.. My Uncle did kempokan, and he sure as hell could fight. I might go to the dojo where he trained for a few months to see if I can understand it, or if it helps me to be a better fighter. Maybe a kata without weapons would make more sense to me since I'm poor with weapons. For black belt, they're required to know a 1000 step kata.. Last time I spoke with him he didn't think it helped..

I didn't go to school today because there's a lot of work and I'm lazy.. I didn't do my homework because I didn't understand it, the teacher didn't explain it properly.. I didn't complete that project the boss wanted on Friday because he didn't tell me exactly what he wanted... I hit him because he was picking on me... I shot them because the world's so harsh, not to mention cruel and I don't want to be responsible...

KarateKid, I did chito ryu karate before. I've done freestyle kickboxing and I do BJJ now.. G95champ, PLEASE explain to me HOW you think that. That's the part I fail to understand. Are you saying it's like the equivalent of shadow boxing ? It causes me great provocation when people can't explain their point to me and I can explain mine. I believe if you can't explain/teach something to someone, then you don't understand it yourself.

I hope I make my point clear... I may be ignorant about kata and forms, but I HAVE done this sort of training. I did karate for a year when I was younger, now I'm sorry I stopped training in MA, but I found karate way too boring because of the kata & I didn't know there were other things at that age. I might have been too young to see the point, but mimicking movements as closely as possible does not help someone learn how to fight. It taught me how to throw a punch and a kick or two, that's pretty evident from everytime I hit someone and they'd go down. But, was it the kata that taught me this ?! No.. it was mere repitition of the technique that taught me to punch & kick. If I hit someone and they didn't go down the first time and they fought back, I'd be in trouble. Once I didn't get to throw the first punch and I got smacked in the nose, I went down so quick and I didn't get up for a while. I never learnt how to fight properly until I started sparring and getting hit. Sure, there's the application of the kata too, but I did kata at my last dojo too and I was 16, so I dare say I was mature enough to understand it this time. We had one kata, that consisted of 24-26 movements, I can't remember exactly how many. I never learnt it all and I was there for a year. Why ? Because it's merely mimicking movements off someone else. Ask any of the other higher belts who knew the kata and could perform it to explain what it meant, they wouldn't know where to begin. To me, unless you made the kata, it just seems ludicrous to mimick it. Not everyone thinks the same, not everyone has the same fighting style. What one person perceives as one thing, another will perceive as another. Kata was originally used to hide techniques in it because they were illegal wasn't it ? This is all I can see it does, teaches technique.. I'm yet to understand how kata can teach someone how to fight... I've never got anything more than you're wrong with a shake of the head..

I tend to ignore most of those things and those people in particular. I even ignore those people on other things besides MA because it frustrates me so much. Who says they don't think the same about me though ? Even so, it doesn't really seem to do much to help the issue, only makes it worse since these people probably increase with proportion to the amount of them. Maybe if we could exchange opinions with these people and instill a little humility in them and show them they do not know everything, ie. they may know more on some aspects than us, but we know more on others. Still, I find it incredibly frustrating when someone who does not even train in MA, but has great awe for it tells me I am wrong and he is right without any arguments to back up their point when I am trying to express my views & thoughts. Can you blame me for not talking about MA with him, or trying to offer thoughts that might make them a better 'martial artist' ? I find it hard to talk about MA with people who have a lot of kata in their style, or do a traditional style. That's their thing, fine. But, it's not mine and the fact I don't want to train in it, is not wrong. Further more, I find it so ironic some of these people study a traditional style, but go on to say we do a bit of everything at our dojo, whatever works, we train in. Yet, when it comes to crosstraining, weights, sparring matches, they're not interested & stop listening. To sum it up, I guess I'm frustrated by people being traditional for the sake of tradition. In my opinion, this is utterly foolish! I feel very strongly about this, because the way I see it is it corresponds to technology and technology is always improving. Just about everyone uses a computer these days, it makes life a lot more easier. How many people still handwrite a letter for the sake of tradition when they can use email to type it up in 15min and send so it's there within 2 seconds ? How many people handwrite assignments or documents they have to do for work ? How many people use some form of technology to entertain themselves these days ? I'm not saying old methods won't work, or don't have their value, but modern methods are much more efficient and productive, which is why I think we need to keep an open view. Also, most of these people idolise Bruce Lee and we all know he broke tradition and is guilty of heresy. The end result ? Nothing short of phenomenal to these people..

Yes, I can http://www.google.com

I haven't lost any muscle mass either! I've been able to build muscle.. I can now do 80 push ups

Where did you hear that ? I heard the opposite, ketones are actually the preffered energy source for the brain! I have tested this diet, so anything I do say I've found merit to. I've come down a weight class & I'm planning to come down another one.. =p

A PS2 is not a gaming system entirely. If you watch DVDs and listen to music, you've got a stereo as well a console. It pays itself off as leisure time instead.

The following reasons are why I used to fight : I felt intimidated & scared and wanted to reverse it. I felt I couldn't win the verbal argument, or I'd lost it, so I'd resort to violence. I wanted to prove I was tough. I wanted to try a technique, so I'd look for an excuse to start a fight and try a technique. I wanted to impress people.. That seems so foolish now.. I wanted to 'shut' someone's mouth. I was trying to be the macho guy.. I was sick of being walked over and wanted to be known as someone who wouldn't be walked over easily. I felt I had a reputation that I had to keep.. The main reason I would fight was because I felt they were in the wrong with what they were doing and hitting them was okay because I'd been 'conditioned' when I was younger that if I misbehaved, I'd be hit. I'm also protective when it comes to my close friends.. an attack on my close friends is an attack on me as far as I'm concerned, especially on a lady. But, 'friends' that wouldn't stick for me, or haven't stuck for me in the past, I wouldn't stick for if the situation arised.