IcemanSK

I would encourage you to not look at Taekwondo strictly through the lens of Karate. While the really history is certainly not the 2000 year old history portrayed in the ustw website, it is also not strictly a Korean version of Okinawan MA. Several original Kwan founders had Chinese MA backgrounds, as well as a Korean martial sport called TaeKyon. Titles for Korean MA do not translate into English as "master" or "grandmaster." That is an English term that we in the West have put on the titles of "Sa Boem" and "Kwan Jang." But yes, they are different than titles in Okinawan & Japanese MA. In Kukki-TKD, (think World Taekwondo Federation and the Olympic sport) one is given the title of Sa Boem (often termed "master" in the West) at 4th Dan and is able to test their own students to BB. Kwan Jang (often termed "grandmaster" in the West) is given at 7th Dan. And yes, like Yoda, there are many 9th Dan in Taekwondo that prefer to be called Sa Boem, than Kwan Jang. It is their privilege to use a term they are comfort with. Just like there are many Shihan-level Karateka who prefer to simply be called sensei.

The Taekwondowon was just opened last year about 3 hours South of Seoul. It is (at this point) poised to be an extension of Kukkiwon and the new Mecca for Kukki-TKD. I think it is planned that it will become the new Kukkiwon. It's quite a large sprawling campus in the middle of nowhere, from what I understand. The Kukkiwon in Seoul is a small building (for the numbers of people who visit each year). The TKDwon can accommodate the visitors. I don't know if this is a factor, but Kukkiwon is also in the Gangnam section of Seoul (think Gangnam Style = wealthy "Rodeo Drive type" neighborhood). Perhaps selling that property is a consideration. I'm speculating a great deal here, but it seems to be pointing in this direction. Also, the "US TKD won" is not an official part of the Korean TKD won, nor a major organization.

Tae Guek 6 (Yuk Jang) is a great form with which to test a student's abilities. When I took the Kukkiwon Foreign Instructor's Course the instructors of the course said to us, "a good student does this poomsae well." When it came time for our physical skill test they wanted to see us each to this poomsae and Keumgang (2nd Dan form). It was then they said, "You can judge anyone's Taekwondo by how they perform these two poomsae." In the 5 years since I took the Course I've been able to see the wisdom in that statement (when it comes to Kukki-TKD folks, anyway.) TG #6 shows balance, power, speed and control in it's movements. It also puts a harsh light on students who do not have those abilities. Pal Gwe #6 was the first of three Pal Gwe forms I did as a gup student. As I look at it now, I see how much more complex it is than Tae Guek #6 is. The TG poomsae have a familiar pattern to them, while the Pal Gwe do not share any particular pattern or theme past the first bar. It's amazing to me that the same group of men (two more gentlemen added to help with the TG set) came up with such different poomsae. The meanings behind each set are identical, however. They are each based on the 8 Pal Gwe divination signs: Heaven and light, Joy, Fire and Sun, Thunder, Wind, Water, Mountain, Earth. So both TG #1 & PG #1 mean Heaven and Light, etc.

Sometimes that needs to be done. As hard as it may be, it's still not the end of your growth. Godspeed, sir.

Nice!.....And quite true.

FWIW, I have zero experience with Judo. But I have a friend who is 6th Dan TKD, BB in BJJ, a very fit former Marine. When he told me about his time in Judo he described it as pretty rough on his body. I think, like any MA, it depends on many variables, including how the instructor teaches class.

I've trained on wood floors that was a dance floor. It was nice at first, however, it didn't last long. The dance class that was in there was a Ballet Folkorico (traditional Mexican dance) who used a hard shoe that destroyed the floor. For us barefoot folks, it became unusable. I've trained for long periods of time on tile over concrete, wood (several kinds), Judo mats (mats for rolling), indoor/outdoor carpet over concrete & competition mats. I'll take competition mats any day.

That is helpful, thank you. In those sequences that repeat, is the back fist always the first (in this form?)? Also, when the practitioner turns around and is heading back towards the start, are those back fist strikes, or inside blocks? The sequence goes Technique #5 Two inside blocks. #6 Front kick, back fist/inside block. #7 Front kick, backfist inside block. #8 Backfist. The later techniques (at #13-14) are inside blocks. So, the "official" version is to throw the "tracing" hand out with the side kick. Does the WTF/Kukkiwon label it as a strike, or just an assisting hand? The technique with the side kick is a strike, technically, but more for balance. I hope you are enjoying this as well! Do you perform the Palgwe set, as well, Iceman? Back when I started TKD in 1982, my master taught us Tae Geuk 1-8 and Pal Gwe 6, 7, & 8. So, I have experience with a few, but not all of them. A while back, there was a book put out on some ideas for self-defense applications of the Taeguk forms. I hope someone would come along and do so with the Palgwe forms. I get the feeling, though, that the Palgwe set may go away sooner rather than later. One of the reasons they are going away is that they are no longer "official" Kukkiwon Poomsae any longer. Even GM PARK Hae Man (one of the designers of both poomsae sets) tells his students to only focus on the Tae Geuk & the yudanja poomsae. I think the book you're referring to is "The Tae Geuk Cipher" by S. J. O'Neil I have no real issue with what he does in the book, but I don't think the photos are clear enough to really learn much from. My $.02.

Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan is Korean.

In Tae Geuk #5 (Oh Jang) the techniques (in moves 6-8 ) are a backfist to the filtrum (between the upper lip & nose) and then inside block. One possible application of this I've seen lately is using the backfist hand to trap the opponent's punch, then the inside block as a fulcrum against the attacker's elbow. The technique in move #2 (downward hammerfist) is also found in a later Pal Gwe poomsae. The designers were quite fond of that technique, apparently. The version of Tae Geuk #5 done here does not include the extended arm with the side kick. See this version (the current official Kukkiwon version) of the form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQZKAlLLI0&index=20&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9 I can tell you're having fun with this. I don't think you're alone.

Darn it, where is the "like" button when ya need it? Thanks everyone for adding to this thread. Keep 'em coming!

Excellent! I've also heard it called Palsek in some Korean Art circles.

In my Taekwondo organization we do Basai Dai (that we just call Bassai) at 3rd Dan. When I was learning this kata, I searched Youtube and found that many of the various Karate styles put their own emphasis or uniqueness to it. I found it to be a fascinating study of how different Arts look at the same kata. I don't see it as a bad thing that each style makes it uniquely their own. Here is our organization's version at one of our tournaments. This is not me, however. Shotokan: Shito- Ryu: Kyokushin: Tang Soo Do: In looking for different versions I noticed a wide variety of differences, even within the same style. I noticed that the 2 Korean styles make the side kick higher than our Japanese brethren, but that's kind of what we tend to do. Some styles add, some subtract techniques, but it's a great kata to see how each style interprets it. Peace

Tae Geuk Sa Jang (#4) is a big change from the familiar motions of TG 1-3. While pattern of the form itself is familiar to the student, the techniques take on a much different tone and complexity.

You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different. I often wonder if sine wave isn't (in some places) taken to an extreme that it was never meant to go. Something meant to be a way to demonstrate how power is generated taken to a sometimes comical extreme. I've seen (again, in some places) people trying to put sine wave in where it seems odd, awkward and out of place. Almost as if sine wave itself is the technique, instead of the kick, punch or block.

truthfully i have no idea. I'll have to ask someone next time i'm in the dojang. Ok! I'd be curious to their answer(s). In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully. I came from a school that didn't appreciate sine wave, but we brought in an expert close to Gen. Choi to teach us. However, my instructor had little patience and thought it was laughable and a huge waste of his time. It was not taken seriously at our school. Here's an article by the UK's Stuart Anslow on sine wave that may be helpful. http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

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My 2015 goal is to hopefully test two of my students for 1st Dan....but that is up to them & their willingness to work.

This is not original to me. It was written by Master Peter Miles (7th Dan Chung Do Kwan, 6th Dan Kukkiwon, if I'm not mistaken) on the Tae Guek poomsae. In it is the list of gentlemen who designed the Tae Guek poomsae. Perhaps, some of those names are the familiar to Chan Hon practitioners. During the 1950's Korean martial artists were primarily performing Okinawan and Chinese forms. With the efforts to unify the various Kwans came an effort to standardize the material taught. To this end, the Korea Taekwondo Association had representatives from the various Kwans become members of the Poomsae Committee. The task of the Poomsae Committee was to create uniquely Korean Taekwondo poomsae. The members of the Committee and their Kwan affiliation were: 1) KWAK Kun Sik (Chung Do Kwan) 2) LEE Yong Sup (Song Moo Kwan) 3) PARK Hae Man (Chung Do Kwan) 4) HYUN Jong Myung (Oh Do Kwan) 5) KIM Soon Bae (Chang Moo Kwan) These original members created the Palgwae poomsae and the Yudanja poomsae (Koryo through Ilyo). It is important to emphasize that the Oh Do Kwan, which were using the Chon Ji forms created by Gen. Choi, participated in the creation of the new KTA poomsae, and thus were an active part of the unification process. The Oh Do Kwan member who participated was GM HYUN Jong Myung, the Oh Do Kwan Jang at the time. The Palgwae poomsae were the first uniquely Korean Taekwondo poomsae. Unfortunately, they were created without the input of two of the original Kwans: the Jidokwan and the Moo Duk Kwan. The reason for this is that the Kwan Jangs of these Kwans: Dr. YOON, Kwe Byung and GM HWANG, Kee, respectively, had left the Korea Taekwondo Association and had a rival organization, the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. Several years later, a majority of Jidokwan (under the leadership of GM LEE, chong Woo) and Moo Duk Kwan (lead by GM HONG, Chong Soo) members rejoined the Korea Taekwondo Association. At that time, it was felt that the input of these Kwans should be included, and new poomsae, the Tae Guek series was created. The additional members from the Jidokwan and Moo Duk Kwan were: 6) LEE Chong Woo (Jidokwan) 7) BAE Young Ki (Jidokwan) HAN Yong Tae (Moo Duk Kwan) (Names and Kwan affiliation of Poomsae Committee members comes to me courtesy of my friend and senior Glenn U. from his many conversations with Kwan founders and pioneers). Background. In order to discuss the philosophical context of the Taeguek series, it might be a good idea to look at what "Tae" "Guek" means. "Tae" means "largeness" and "Guek" means "eternity." Together the thought behind "Taeguek" represents the creation of the universe. The symbol for Taeguek is the familiar red/blue yin/uhm (negative) and yang (positive). The circle of the Taeguek symbolizes infinity-no beginning or end. Around the outside of the Taeguek are 8 "gwes" or "Palgwe". Each of these "gwe" consist of various combinations of three solid (yang) or broken (uhm) bars. From the 12 O'clock position and moving clockwise, the order of the Palgwe is as follows: "keon", "seon", "kam", "kan", "kon", "jin", "ri", and "tae." For those who are not familiar with what the Palgwe symbols look like, you can see them here: http://fisks.com/tkd/taeguek_poomse.html Philosophy: Taeguek 1 represents "keon" which is heaven-that which is great and original-it is the first poomsae so it is easy to learn. Since it has 3 solid bars, it is all "yang" or positive. Taeguek 2 represents "tae" which is strength of mind-gentle or soft on the outside, firm of intention on the inside. Taeguek 3 represents "ri" which is sun or fire or light. It is hot and bright like one's passion for training. It is the last of the beginner poomsae. Taeguek 4 represents "jin" which is thunder. It is loud and strong but disappears and brings forth freshness. This poomsae is for intermediate students-those who have trained long enough to have a grasp of basic techniques but desirous of new challenges. One of the challenges of this poomsae is the introduction of returing the kicking leg to its original position. Taeguek 5 represents "seon" or wind. Wind can be refreshing like a gentle breeze or overwhelming like Hurrican Rita. Like a gathering storm, Taeguek 5 starts out with easy motions and builds up to a crescendo with the front kick/stomp and backfist combination at the end. Taeguek 6 represents "gam" or water. Water can form to fit any container yet can also be dangerous. Like water, this poomsae has both fluid and strong motions such as the ending combination of pushing blocks and reverse punches. Taeguek 7 represents "kan" or mountain. A mountain is majestic and can be either tranquil or angry.This is an advanced poomsae and the majesty of the covering fist (ITF stylists begin "Won Hyo" in this position) pause followed by the scissors block is an example. Taeguek 8 represents "kon" or earth-the opposite of heaven so it consists of 3 broken sets of bars (all yin-negative). The earth is firm, rooted, like those ready to test for black belt who are grounded in their knowledge and like earth, ready to spring forth with new knowledge. Technical Aspects: The first 3 poomsae are for beginners. They are characterized by simple, straightforward moves such as walking stances, low blocks, middle and upper section punches. The only kicking technique is a front kick, again, the most basic of the kicks. Nevertheless, they increase in level of difficulty from 1 through 3. For example, in Taeguek 1, the 5th motion is a low block in front stance followed immediately by a reverse punch. In Taeguek 3, there is a middle section knife hand block in a back stance followed immediately by a stance change before the middle section punch. The second set of 3 (i.e. Taeguek 4-6) are intermediate poomsae. These poomsae introduce increasingly difficult techniques. For example, Taeguek 4 introduces double knife hand block, spear hand strike with push block, simultaneous knife hand block and neck strike, consecutive side kicks, and body-weight concepts (i.e. returning kicking leg to original stance, use of forward momentum from front kick in subsequent front back fist strike). The final 2 poomsae in the Taeguek series, Taeguek 7 & 8 are advanced poomsae. They have a different feel and flow than the earlier 6 poomsae. In fact, Taeguek 7 has what I perceive to be an almost "kung-fu-like" feel with soft palm blocks, body-weight shifting 180 degrees in tiger stances, and inside crescent kicks to open hand targets. Taeguek 8 likewise diffentiates between kicking combinations moving forward and those which are stationary. It also introduces in the final half a sliding stepping motion not seen in any of the earlier poomsae. What is fascinating about the Taeguek series is that the footwork matches the respective Palgwe symbol. So, if one were to do Taeguek 4 for instance in the sand, from overhead, the sand would be marked with the Palgwe symbol "ri." Clearly there was a great deal of thought put into the series.

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At first glance, the many walking stances in the first two Tae Guek poomsae might be so to aid the student in focusing more on blocks than the stances. In actuality, they are intended to teach the beginning student to generate power from the hips & legs, rather than from a front stance. Throwing a reverse inside block with power from a walking stance takes a lot more effort than from a front stance.

A point of interest, for some. The designers of the Pal Gwe and the Tae Guek poomsae were basically the same men. There were two men added when they designed the Tae Guek poomsae. My instructor's instructor (GM PARK Hae Man) is one of the designers of both sets of poomsae. The two sets of poomsae are quite different from one another, yet created by the same people within ten years of each other.

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I'd recommend a dentist-made mouthpiece. Most are around $150, but replacing a tooth is around $900. My dentist charged me $75, because, as he told me, "I had to lower the price because too many patients thought a $2.50 mouthpiece from the sporting goods store will protect them." Like a good cup, a good mouthpiece is like gold.