IcemanSK

In Kukki-Taekwondo (Kukkiwon, sometimes wrongly called WTF TKD) there is a junior BB called a Poom rank (as opposed to Dan rank) that is traditionally (especially in Korea) half red & half black. This is for students under 15 years old. In the US, many schools give these Poom students a physically black belt. When these students become 15 years old, they can become Dan rank by just applying for it: not test required. A Poom student can become up to 4th Poom. The way this happens is one stays a Poom rank up until the age of 18. With time in grade, one stays Poom rank at 3rd Dan at, say 14 and is eligible (with proper Time in Grade) until they test at 17. That student can become a 4th Dan at age 18 without a test. 4th Poom rank is very rare in Kukki-TKD (in the US or Korea. In the US, there are 348 Kukki-TKD 4th Poom. I've met very few people who became 4th Poom. The one's I've met were all children of school owners who spent their whole lives training.

Yes...RIP Sr. Grandmaster Edward B. Sell; a life filled with accomplishments. We, at the Shindokan Hombu knew him, but only from afar. Our prayers go out to his wife, Sr. Grandmaster Brenda Sell, his family and friends, and to his US Chung Do Kwan family. Thank you, sir.

My grandmaster, the late Sr. Grandmaster Edward B. Sell. The first non-Korean to be awarded 9th Dan in both Kukki-TKD and Chung Do Kwan. Here's a video played at his funeral last year. RIP Sir.

Who's ready for 8th Dan Poomsae, Forms, Tul? This guy!

In the nearly 10 years since my original post, I've run across a few Chang Hon folks, but there are very few in this part of the world. When I posted this originally, I was working for a community center who wanted me to teach a TKD program there. I was without an instructor, and since Chang Hon style was where I received my 2nd Dan, I figured I'd try to connect with folks with whom I was most recently familiar. Since that proved quite difficult, I connected with the late Sr. GM Edward Sell and his U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association who was 9th Dan Kukkiwon. (My 1st Dan is KKW) I've been with the USCDKA (his wife, GM Brenda Sell, now runs the organization) ever since. I hope that those looking for Chang Hon TKD in L.A. can connect and get some good training in.

I said to Heidi earlier in the thread I thought it odd that competitors were split only by age and not by dan rank also and that competitors had to learn all poomse. ITF tournaments work a little differently in that the ages are split off but dan grades are all separate categories too: 1st dans vs 1st dans, 2nd vs 2nd and so on. You also have to perform your form from your grade. I wouldn't say it's uncommon to see the higher dan forms at our tournaments. Having Poomsae competition at the world class level like this is relatively new for WTF/KKW. Sparring has always been KING for a very long time for us. But it's a young person's game. By the time one is 35 (or maybe 40, if one is lucky) your fighting days are over. So, a 40 year old 6th-7th Dan is in a suit on the sidelines with the other masters talking about the "good ole' days." And because Poomsae was not a big deal, there were no competitors doing it at that rank. I don't want to say that it was seen as "undignified" for them. It just wasn't the focus of most masters to work on Poomsae. ITF folks have always had an appreciation for Tul, as well as sparring. Our appreciation for Poomsae is roughly (maybe) 15 years old. It has changed the attention of Kukki-TKD to be much broader than it has been for 30 years. It's a gamble to hopefully grow Kukki-TKD and it seems to have worked.

Yeah, there was a bit of gamesmanship in that exchange, for sure. It was fun to watch. One of things that puzzle me about the KKW yundanja Poomsae is that get increasingly more difficult to perform as they go up in rank. Perhaps that's why the WTF competition Poomsae selects the Poomsae performed by age, rather than belt rank. Before competition Poomsae, I rarely saw any Poomsae higher than Koryeo (1st Dan Poomsae) performed in tournaments. I was a 1st Dan in the mid-80's before I'd even heard of Keumgang (2nd Dan Poomsae) and Taebek (3rd Dan Poomsae). And that was only because GM Pugil Kwon's book came out. I never actually saw them performed until a few years later. I'm torn about Poomsae being taught to all for competition. I've always been a "one rank, one Poomsae" kind of person. But now, we get to see all of the yundanja Poomsae more often than ever. On balance, I think it's a better thing than having, say, Cheonkwon as a "mysterious" Poomsae that is rarely shown because few 7th Dan are interested in competing in Poomsae.

In 2009, I took the Kukkiwon Instructor's Course held in Chicago. The Poomsae instructor was GM Jae Yoon AHN, multi-time Poomsae Worlds gold medalist. 168 masters from all over the world were in attendance at this event hanging on everything GM AHN taught. He was amazing! While teaching Cheonkwon, he called up Master Ron Southwick, a member of the US Poomsae team. The two would face each other at Worlds 3 weeks later. Without warning, in front of the whole class, GM AHN asked Master Southwick to perform Cheonkwon. Master Southwick did so and everyone sat with their mouths open at his ability. When someone asked GM AHN what he thought of the performance he said, "Now I have to go home and work on Cheonkwon!" Cheonkwon is an easy form to get off balance with. If you are "off", it's hard to recover. The jump spinning crescent kick to a target is a real hard one. It's a thing of beauty when done well, however.

Ji Tae is relatively simple. Cheonkwon (7th Dan KKW Poomsae) however, is a rough one.

Has it always been done that way, or is it a change that made its way into the form?It was initially intended to be done to the front. The 1975 KKW textbook shows it that way and GM PARK Hae Man teaches it that way now. For competition in recent years, it changed to more to the side (although it seems to be changing back to the front again). The "why" of the change is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone knows.

I'm not exactly sure why the motion is the way it is. My guess is a block and then pulling away from a grab. I find it curious as well.

Here's Sipjin's Bawi Milgi done to the side. The gentleman with the curly hair is GM AHN, Jae Yun, instructor at KKW and gold medalist at World Poomsae Championships. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vppi8ivlFlA&index=43&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9

WTF/Kukki 5th dan Poomsae, Sipjin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGOPx0P1aKU 31 moves, in a + pattern. Sipjin symbolizes the longevity humans derive from the everlasting elements of nature, and follows the line of movement that is the Chinese character for 10, symbolizing "the infinitely multiplying nature of the decimal system and the endless development of life forms in nature," (from Complete Taekwondo Poomsae). This is an interesting pattern, and again, seems to have that Poe Eun feeling to it at the beginning, moving along the line facing mostly forward, but turning around to face the other way with the open mountain block at moves 4 and 9. The motions starting at move 2b and continuing through move 3c, with the augmented middle section block, pressing forward and opening the hand, and then to a horizontal spear hand thrust with the opposite hand. This segment repeats, as well. At move 15b, we see the first of several boulder pushing blocks, which press very slowly and cover a large area, and they move more upwards than the way I have done them, moving across. We also see some twin forward punches in this form, done in pairs from opposite stances. This is a very interesting form. I noticed in the boulder pushing block, the front stance appeared to have the feet on one line, instead of shoulder width apart, which would be a very awkward movement for me. This form also runs a mix of fast move combinations with slower segments of power and tension. Sipjin is an interesting and fun poomsae to do. The Bawi Milgi (Rock pushing technique in 15b and two other places) is a sore spot for many Kukki-TKD folks. GM Hae Man PARK (one of the designers) and the original 1975 KKW textbook have performers complete it to the front while competition Poomsae standard is now to the side more (although that is changing in competition, I heard). Which is "right" has been the bone of contention for the past few years. The stance isn't quite a straight line. However, the front stance has become a bit more in line for competition Poomsae in recent years. Some say "it's always been the way in Kukki-TKD," others strongly disagree that that is the case.

I look at armchair instructors as not only family, friends etc., but also folks who do train who come with unsolicited opinions on what I'm doing. In addition to training my main Art for more than 30 years, I trained in Western Boxing for more than 10 years. Boxing gyms tend to be magnets for guys who walk in off the street and who want to share their unsolicited views on your training. It seems to come with testerone to tell others how to do something (that the advice-giver cannot do) differently. The joke "Do you even spar, Bro?!" comes from listening to these folks say such things. Back to my original point. Occasionally, I run across folks who train in my Art that want to tell me how their master (GM, etc.) does it better/differently than I do. The reality is, that this almost never comes from someone over the rank of 3rd Dan. Once one has spent enough time in an Art to reach a higher Dan rank, most tend to wait to asked before giving out advice. I used to hear from my students when we'd go to tournaments. While directed at me, and not the student from another school, they'd say, "Sir, why does that student do 'X, y or z?'" that was very different and/or wrong by our standards. I said to one of my teen brown belts, "I don't know. Why don't ask his master. He's right over there." He wisely chose not to. The old Polish saying, "Not my circus. Not my monkeys" is my motto when I see others do some "wrong." If they ask my thoughts/help, I will give it.

I'd add Simon O'Neil to the list of Kukkiwon-style folks who do similar breakdowns along with LEE Dong Hee. O'Neil's book here: http://www.amazon.com/Taegeuk-Cipher-Simon-John-Oneill/dp/1409226026/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428775511&sr=8-1&keywords=Taekwondo+Cipher I enjoy LEE's techniques & ideas. But he is able use his youth & incredible speed to his advantage. Not all of us are young and quick, anymore.

Well said, and I agree for the most part. I'd love for MA to be offered for free as part of school. Of course that would bring the quagmire of which style to train students in. Regardless I'd say even if an instructor wanted to have free training there is still the concern of insurance and facilities. Many instructors I've seen are able to charge smaller fees because they aren't in for profit. For the last 10 years, I've served lower income folks in my town. It's not easy, because everything does have a cost. I run my school out of my church (low overhead) but it still isn't easy. I have a friend who runs a sister school out of a church, as well. He's retired from his career, and a member of the Kiwanis Club. His Kiwanis Club pays for the equipment (mats, etc.) and he charges a nominal fee per month. He serves mostly low income students. If his students can't pay, he doesn't care. He teaches high-quality MA 4 days a week, has over 70 students (and a wait list of 60+), with ridiculously low turn over. I can't tell you how envious I am.

The numbers on likelihood of training going up for wealthier children bothers me. It always has concerned me that the opportunities aren't available for lower income folks. They're under served in many areas of life. I suppose MA is no different. It costs something (for most folks) to train. It makes sense that if you want to open a school, you'd rather make money doing so.

I was a 19 year old 2nd Dan sparring with a white belt (his first time) in a crowded room of others also sparring with their partners. Next thing I know, I'm on the floor from a kick that my partner did not throw. I picked myself up, and saw I had a cut underneath my lip & was bleeding pretty good. Turns out, two guys next to me were sparring. One guy threw a kick, the other slipped it & it hit me. I needed 3 stitches to close up the cut. Here's the funny part. Neither guy owned up to throwing the kick. They were adults in their late 30's & high gup rank. One was a lawyer. Both apologized to me, tho. I trained with both for years after (and am still in contact with one of them nearly 30 years later) but neither admitted throwing the kick.

Kukki-Taekwondo 2nd Dan form Keumgang has no kicks, just foot stomps in it. I believe ITF Tae Kwon-Do has one as well. I can't recall which one that is, however.

My school doesn't often participate in tournaments. It interests me more than it does my students. We live in a part of the world that produces many elite-level poomsae & Kyorugi athletes, in large part due to the types of tournaments. Many US Poomsae Team members are Californians. As far as open tournaments, my experience is that Korean stylists get the short end of the deal when doing Poomsae for non-Korean-stylist judges. A good Korean front stance & a good Okinawan front stance do not look the same. Most judges like TSD, for it's close resemblance to Karate, but TKD is too different for them to see as "good." I have no experience with AAU tournaments, so I can't speak to those.

It does seem a little strenuous for the competitor! And a little bit odd as presumably from a syllabus point of view only an 8th dan should have the knowledge and ability to tackle Hansu etc. It also doesn't allow much room for individual preference or style. Do you compete in grades of just all black belts together? In ITF, 1st dans compete against other 1sts, 2nds vs other 2nds and so on. Like most things the WTF does, they gear the rules toward elite level competitors first, and are less concerned with non-elite folks. With this in mind, sport Poomsae as it is now, makes sense. In Korea, an elite level 25 year old would have no problem doing Shipjin (5th Dan Poomsae) justice. The same would be true of a 57 year old with Hansu. The place where the difficulty lies is when a non-elite 47 year old (let's say, me ) wants to compete Poomsae. There is a big hill to climb for non-elite folks. Tournaments that do "regular" (not "sport") Poomsae can still be found, but they are getting fewer all the time. There's a lot of money in sport Poomsae. Special unique doboks just for Poomsae are a big deal, now. Pants are different colors for male & female adults and children. And grandmaster doboks are gold tops with black pants. There is some discussion (I haven't verified it) that they are making everyone 50 years old & older (regardless of Dan rank) eligible to wear the gold dobok. Grandmaster (7th-9th Dan) http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/2014/06/Taekwondo-Hub-Iloilo-TKD-JCalicu-Diamond-Poomsae-High-Dan-Dobok.html Poom Female/Male (1st-4th Poom less than 16 years old) http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Poom%20Dobok Dan Female/Male (1st-6th Dan) http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Dan%20Dobok

The WTF Sport Poomsae rules for black belts are a bit odd. Once one is Dan rank (so, 16 years old or older), the Poomsae one may have to do is dependent on age, not rank. For example, if one is a 1st Dan "under 29" but older than 17, one may need to any poomsae from Tae Geuk 6-Shipjin. If one is a 1st Dan between 50-59, one needs to prepare to do any Poomsae from Koryo-Hansu (8th Dan Poomsae). 1st Dan or 7th Dan at 53 years old means nothing in sport Poomsae. Everyone does the same Poomsae. The way it work is a tournament coordinator will choose what Poomsae they want for see for each age group and post them to the tournament website about 2-3 weeks prior to the tournament. For example, "for 20-29 BB's will all do Tae Geuk 8 in the first round, Pyongwon for second round, and Tae Bek in the finals." Therefore, if you're in that age range, you train those Poomsae in your age category, and focus on the one's when a tournament posts their list. *ninjanurse: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this. My intent is to add further to your post above.*

No, the hakdari seogi is not supposed to be done slowly in Pyongwon, as is done in Tae Bek. They're done much quicker.

I noticed the strong feel of Poe Eun in Pyongwon from the first time I saw it. They are a very similar in style and challenge. The hakdari seogi (crane stance with Keumgang makki followed by a side kick) of Pyongwon is a further challenge of the nearly same technique found in Tae Bek. In Tae Bek, we go from the one-legged hakdari seogi with hands in hinged-shaped block. But in Pyongwon, we have the added challenge of Keumgang makki before doing the hinge-shaped block. The added challenge to one's balance is multiplied with the Keumgang makki of Pyongwon. There is a paper written for Kukkiwon high Dan test that an author did at Kukkiwon. He went through each yudanja Poomsae and discussed (among other things) a possible significance of that Poomsae for that rank. In it, he notes, "Pyongwon is the shortest poomsae of all the Kukkiwon poomsae, which tells the 4th Dan that for this dan, his focus is not on his own training, the training of his students." The author goes on to say how this Poomsae is like the mirroring an instructor does "going back and forth across the dojang floor, teaching his or her students." As some may know, in order to be licensed to teach Taekwondo in Korea, one needs to have 4th Dan KKW and pass the Instructor's Course KKW teaches. One cannot own or run a dojang in Korea until 4th Dan. This author's thought (which seems reasonable to me) is that, at 4th Dan, learning to run one's own dojang (and teaching students) is the priority.