IcemanSK

I used to train at one of the best full contact rules kickboxing gyms in the U.S. back in the 90's. We had some of the best fighters at our gym, along with folks like me, who just loved to train, but weren't at the top levels. Needles to say, we had a lot of Alpha dogs at the gym. We trained hard, & sparred hard with each other day in & day out. But there was never any jealousy or envy among us. If one won, we all won. If one lost, we all had a bad night & we tried harder the next day. We enjoyed competing with, & even against one another (if it had to happen). But we were always a family at the end of the day.

Thanks for this thread. I don't like to dwell on "if I'd known then what I know now" about my training, simply because I can't go back and change it. Not to mention the fact that the choices I made & circumstances that took place lead to where I am now. Having said that, I'll play along. In the mid 80's, as a teen 1st Dan, my instructor moved away. I began to train where my friends did. My master didn't like the master there & told me so. I should have listened, but I didn't & stayed way too long training under him. Years later, that guy divorced his wife & sold the school & we all found out then that he was a fraud. (He didn't hold rank that he claimed from the organization that he claimed). I discovered that when I went to another school with my certificates to ask a grandmaster if he'd train me. He looked at my cert from master #2 & told me it wasn't real. I was so angry & frustrated I left that meeting & went to a famed kickboxing gym, where I stayed for 5 years. That place changed my life in a lot of ways. But I never would have made it there had this terrible meeting with the grandmaster not happened. That was 20 years ago. My intensive training in my original Art took a detour, but it was a great detour. I had experiences there that I never would have had I gone with that grandmaster. I've been training for more than 30 years. My original master now teaches golf for a living. I couldn't train under him now if I wanted to. The trainer at the kickboxing gym died while I was his student. I didn't have the opportunity for an uninterrupted training experience under one master for my whole career. I train under someone now that I respect & I enjoy training under. Life is good.

Years ago, I was a judge at a belt test. A young teen (12-13 or so), had a pained look on his face as I lead students through basic blocks. I asked if something was wrong, but he has "no sir!" Apparently, his cup wasn't secured & had come out of his jock, so as he did the next low block with a lot of force, his cup came down his pant leg & onto the floor. He was too nervous (at his first test) to tell me, yet oddly relieved he wasn't uncomfortable any longer. The rest of the test went better.

I taught a Taekwondo program at a local community center in my town. When the director of the center left the program, the instructor of the karate program & I gave her an honorary BB with a nice plaque as a thank you for championing our programs. edit: I'll say a bit more about what we did. The belt we presented had red embroidery on one end (as the Karate program's tradition) and gold embroidery on the other (as in our Taekwondo program's tradition).

A very broad answer to the question "how different are the two?" is TSD is more like Shotokan Karate (deeper stances, more hand techniques) and TKD emphasizes kicking more. If it's ITF (Chang Hon style) TKD, there will be a bit less emphasis on kicking than Kukkiwon (WTF style) TKD would be. I'm speaking in broad terms, but this is usually the case. Whether the instructor is Korean or American does not matter as to the quality of instruction. Naturally, you want to choose a good instructor; ethnicity does not matter. My best in your search.

I like this short-lived Pro Taekwondo from the 1990's. Olympic style TKD without chest protectors or headgear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmHAGZ8QiA

Good on you! Congratulations!

It's nearly impossible to tell if a school is good by a website. Most of the time, if the website looks good it just means they have a good web designer. For us, who have no connection to the school, we can't tell you much from where we sit. Try it out. Then you'll be able to tell us how it is. All my best to you.

In the past, I traveled 25 miles each way (sometimes 1 1/2 hours in Chicago traffic) to train at a kickboxing gym 3-4 times a week. Now I drive about 5 minutes to where I teach.

With Kukkiwon Taekwondo (sometimes called WTF style) there is a lot of grief given for the young age at which "master" rank is possible. Because we have a junior BB (or "poom"), it is possible to reach 4th Dan at 18 years old. In Korea, a 4th Dan needs to take an instructor's course and pass it in order to teach TKD there. A 4th Dan & successfully completing the course allows one to grade students to BB themselves. (In the US, all one needs is a 4th Dan KKW to recommend a student to BB.) So young masters are not abnormal in KKW Taekwondo. One thing about KKW Taekwondo is that there are minimum ages in which one can attain certain BB rank, as well as minimum time in grade requirements before one can test to the next grade. For example, one needs to be 36 years old before testing for 7th Dan and be training regularly as a 6th Dan for 6 years. 9th Dan KKW isn't possible before 9 years of training as an 8th Dan: and one must be at least 55 years old. In KKW Taekwondo, 10th Dan is only posthumous (as of now) and is very rare. There have been a few honorary 10th Dans given, but that too, is a rare thing. While 4th Dan is considered a rank at which one can teach under one's own name, it is considered a junior rank among master ranks. In my more than 30 years in Taekwondo, I've met many 4th-5th Dans who were in their 20's (and even a few teen 4th Dans). Some were flighty kids; most were solid martial artists who were teachable. When I was 25 and a student chaplain in a hospital, a few of the medical students were old high school classmates. By 27, they would be medical doctors with full privileges to practice medicine on their own. Nothing we do on the mat is as important as practicing medicine. Titles can certainly go to one's head, no matter what they are. Whether 9th Dan or white belt, we all have something we can learn; we just need to be open to it.

My first master was an x-ray technician. My second was a computer programmer for a large corporation. My GM teaches full time. I am a social worker & teach part time.

Aodan, in my 30+ years in Taekwondo I have to agree with DWx here. Retesting at a new dojang is the simplest way to get that certificate. I'm sorry that this happened to you, but you are not alone. Perhaps a new dojang under a master whom you trust might rekindle your love of Taekwondo. You might find it to be a wonderful experience. All my best to you in your journey.

I don't use it personally, but for schools/systems that use a 10 gup/kyu colored belt rank system, this has a place for each, plus one's BB. For that reason, I love it. http://www.macho.com/victory-belt-rack.aspx

I've seen some fellow Kukki-TKD folks get very upset about this. "How dare they give him a 9th Dan (even if it's honorary)." The reality is it's an honorary rank, it's not like he'd legitimately call himself 'grandmaster.' Like an honorary doctorate given to a graduation speaker at a university graduation, it doesn't imbue them with a title or honors. No alum from a unversity would say, "I can't believe they gave an honorary doctorate to (this or that) person!" Because the honor itself is not important. If they didn't like the person they'd say, "I can't believe they invited so and so to speak." We in MA get bent out of shape about the oddest things, sometimes. IMO

As an instructor, like many of you, I've seen a student make the same mistakes over & over. It's frustrating for me, as well as the student. More so the student when I show my frustration to them. A few years ago I was shown the power of the word "now" in teaching. I was in a seminar with Master Ron Sell, who is the embodiment of enthusiasm for teaching MA. He suggested finding something (anything) in the student's technique & tell them. "Great stance! NOW, turn your wrist over & snap it as you punch." Being encouraging & put the correction as additional encouragement works wonders to positively motivate the student. I use it as often as I can & I've seen the difference in the enthusiasm of my students. I hope you'll find it works for you, too.

Very nice!

Unfortunately, if the KKW has no record of you, it, most likely, means that your instructor never sent in the paperwork for you. It's a very common problem for many people. There are people like this gentleman, http://www.isamartialarts.net/Kukkiwon_page.html who can get you the KKW rank that you seek. You'd have to talk with him about the details, but the website spells out what he does. I'm not affiliated with him in any way. Sadly, it is an all too common problem for for Kukki-Taekwondo students to find out (even years later) that their master never sent in the paperwork into the Kukkiwon for their certificates. I wish you the best in your desire to get the certificates you want.

There are a few other Korean MA-based films. Taekwondo based, specifically. "Best of the Best" is good. There's an old Hon Kong movie called "When Taekwondo Strikes" wih, of all people, Jhoon Rhee as the star. There's also a Korean-made film (in Korean, you can get subtitles in English) called, "Spin Kick." But it's got a lot of rough language & themes. not a kids film. I'm a huge Norris film fan. I'm sure you're find something great.

The is a story in a prominent MA magazine a few years back of an Hapkido master who learned a great lesson from a grandmaster. The master is known around the country as a good MAist. He wanted to learn from one of the most known grandmasters of the Art. Private lessons were expensive, but worth it, he figured. He drove the 6 hours to the GM's dojang, paying several hundred dollars in advance. He was alone in the dojang, so he stretched & warmed up with a few kicks before the grandmaster came out of his office to begin the lesson. As the master threw a side kick, the grandmaster pointed out what was wrong with his kick. The master, taken off guard, thinking the lesson hadn't started, responded, "I yeah, I know. It's never been my best technique." The GM said, "well, since you know that already, you don't need me," & it disappeared into his office. Lesson over. The master was stunned. As he drove the 6 hours home, he was angry that he wasted his time. He thought of all the choice words he could use to describe this GM. "I really got screwed by this guy," he thought to himself. But the closer he got to home, he thought differently about this missed opportunity. The GM was right, he thought. "I came there to learn, but I was unwilling to when the lesson came," he realized. The master got home & called the grandmaster & begged him to give him another chance. He did, & they've enjoyed a student/instructor relationship for more than 15 years. Students do come to instructors for their knowledge & understanding of the Art. In most respects, it's not a democracy. If a master thinks that the student knows more than they do about the Art he/she is teaching, it's then that the master needs a new job.

Let me first say that what happened to your son was absolutely abusive & quite wrong for this instructor to have done. In my more than 30 years of training, I've only seen one slightly similar situation. My first master (in the early 80's) was Korean-born. I was a teen at the time. We had one Korean-born teen who's father made him train because he was very disrespectful to, well, everyone. Our master would punish him for his constant disrespect toward everyone in class by sparring with him after class very hard, neither wearing pads. The master would kick him out of class often; only to have his father come to the dojang & beg him to take his son back to class. In hindsight, as an adult, I see how abusive this was (by both master & father). But in the Korean culture (& time period) respect for seniors is paramount and that type of "lesson" was common. My master treated we Americans very differently. He had different expectations for us. I'm not excusing what this behavior, just explaining the "way it was." BTW, this type of discipline did not have the desired effect. The student eventually left our dojang never to train there again.

As others have said, I'd talk with the instructor AND the owner about this before I went any further. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like simple assault to me. I'n very sorry to hear that your son is (understandably so) soured on going to any martial arts school. I hope that he never feels that he did anything wrong in this situation. I only say that because kids sometimes feel that way if they are the "cause" of "getting an adult in trouble." The adult was in the wrong. He did the right thing by telling people the truth.

I've trained in Taekwondo for more than 30 years. Through high school, college, grad school, moving across the country, many job changes, & life changes. Training has always been there. I've also trained in Western boxing, & full contact rules (think PKA of the 80's) as well. Here's my question to add to the OP, "what have you either given up, or done to go out of your way to train?" Example #1 I used to get in the car at 6 am to drive 25 miles in Chicago winters to train. Example #2 I know a guy who sought out a graduate school program based on the town a great grandmaster lived. He uprooted his life & moved there to both go to school & train under this GM. That's dedication. What lengths have you gone to feed your MA addiction?

The important thing to remember about these stats is that they only reflect those who have received Kukkiwon certificates. In the U.S. there are a lot of folks who train in Kukki-TKD schools who receive school rank, instead of KKW certificates. If all of the BB's who train in Kukki-TKD in the U.S. were counted, the numbers would be at least double what they are on the KKW site.

http://www.kataaro.com/Default.aspx