IcemanSK

I'm always amazed when I see someone who's been a BB for a year with an ancient belt. I always wonder (sometimes out loud) why they would repeatedly throw themselves on rocks to get their belt like that. They're incomplete in their totality as a MAist!! It's as though being a BB isn't enough of an accomplishment. They try to possess a position that they've not yet achieved through honest means. I'm only speculating. Imho! That's what I think, as well. In Kukki-TKD, the standard is to wear a new-looking belt (with no rank stripes) along with a new-looking dobok. GM LEE Kyu Hyung, former president of Kukkiwon wears his belts until they are white & quite faded. He's considered an exception to the rule.

I'm always amazed when I see someone who's been a BB for a year with an ancient belt. I always wonder (sometimes out loud) why they would repeatedly throw themselves on rocks to get their belt like that.

Where's the 9th Dan comparison?

In addition to, "never wash your belt" was "never let your belt touch the ground" (as if it were part of the U.S. flag code, or something). I talked my students when one of them brought it up & asked they intended to do push-ups in uniform without their belt touching the ground. I think the intent of this one was to keep kids from dragging it on the ground behind them as they left class. Instead, they should just tell them not to drag their belt on the ground.

I do it for the chicks man, the chicks. Seriously tho. I began in high school, in part, because of a bully problem I had in junior high. That problem went away as I hit high school (thankfully). But I fell in love with my Art. My master made me feel as if I could do anything I put my mind to. I made friends at the dojang (some that I still have 30+ years later). I love being able to push myself to do more physically. The SD benefits are nice: I've never needed to use them (the physical ones, anyway) so I consider that a side benefit from my training. I realize that for others, its a higher priority. I love teching the next generations of students the Art that I love.

As far as whether some schools are too lenient in their testing, I go by the old Polish proverb: "Not my circus, not my monkeys." If they're not my students, it's not my concern. Master Ken is really funny. But when I run into real life "Master Ken's" I walk away. Too many self-important folks who think it's their job to dole out unsolicited advice to every else is not someone I have much time for.

I try not to trip over titles too much with MA. I go by Mr. with my students, but belong an org. where titles are very important. My GM has never referred to me by my first name, but always by a title. (Mr. then, master). I wish she'd call me by my first name, because it would feel (to me) a closeness as her student. But, to her, calling me by my title is a form of respect. I went to our org.'s big tournament last weekend. My rank & title are well known to all because of insignia we wear at org. events. I met some of my friend's students. One was quite shy & very deferential to even lower rank & children. The look on her face when I told her to call me by my first name was priceless. There are times for titles and there are times to makes connections. I have no trouble calling anyone what they prefer to be called. The guy I with tested with last week (same age & rank) has both a "master" title & is a medical doctor. We call each other by our first names off the matt. That makes sense to me.

Haha! Wow, that was a long time ago. I was a 2nd Dan, and had been since 1988. (That's a whole other Oprah). I had been working a my local community center, in part, as a liasion between the Karate program we had & the Center itself. When my boss found out I was a TKD BB, she said, "you need to run your own program here, as well." I didn't want to teach a program without a master of my own, so I starting posting on here for ideas about teaching, training, & for support from the MA community. I reached out to Sr. GM Edward B, Sell and he took me in as his student. I had bought a copy of his book "The Forces of Taekwondo" back in 1987 & remembered him ever since. I opened my school in January 2006, and while we've moved on from the community center, I still teach today. This site has been a great place to share ideas, learn of other Arts & training methods, share gripes & complaints (as well as successes & joys). Thanks Patrick!

I just wanted to share here that last week I tested for Oh Dan in Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan after 33 years of training. I didn't think I would ever acheive this, but with much perseverance I was able to. Keep training folks.

Thank you both for your thoughts on this. I agree that it is a personal choice and that the pros & cons do depend on how one sees those choices. I think in schools, organizations and/or systems where a new belt is given for each Dan grading, it would certainly be hard to hide the fact that one tested. I'm a bit torn about this. Personally, I wear a plain belt with no rank stripes most of the time with my students. My organization (of which I'm a proud member) uses rank stripes and other things that denote instructor rank. I have what I refer to as my "dress uniform" that have those items, but I only wear it when I go back to our HQ for events. I don't make a big deal about my rank in my school, but I'd rather they not know at all. That would be very hard to do in my organization.

This question is geared more for school owners & instructors. My first master (back in the early 80's) never told us that he tested. He wore the same, very well worn belt, and had none of his rank certificates in the school: so we never knew until a conversation with him years later. To him, training mattered more than the discussion about rank. Has anyone here tested for advanced rank & not told their students? Anyone's instructor ever done that? What do you think about the idea of testing for oneself, but not telling one's students? Pros? Cons?

In my experience, (I'm using a HUGE broad brush here) I've seen that tweens 10-13 tend to change their interest during that time period. At that age they tend to drop their former activity and pick up a new one. So, a child who comes into class at, say, 8, will likely stay until around 11-13 years old. If I get a kid at 13-14, I will probably have them (or at least their interest in MA, if not my program) into adulthood.

It's funny that you should bring up the idea of senior citizens being promoted past their physical ability. On another board, I posted about giving BBs to those with disabilities. My idea was/is that we all have a "standard" of what a technique should be until we age to the point that that one talented 17 year year old with limitless energy has a better side kick (or whatever technique) that is better than our own. Yeah, your response isn't quite where I was going, but it's okay. I can only speak for Kukki-Taekwondo as for what is officially written down. In order to test for 8th & 9th Dan Kukkiwon, one must go to Korea and test at Kukkiwon itself. One can be given posthumous rank, but it's only the rank up from where one was at time of their death. 10th Dan Kukkiwon is only a posthumous rank, and therefore honorary. It has only been given to a small number of people (I believe less than 20). My late grandmaster (Edward B. Sell) was given than honor after his death last year. There are many stories of people passed over for rank that should have received it, but didn't for whatever reason. GM Keiko Fukuda (the last remaining student of Judo founder Jigoro Kano) was awarded 10th Dan shortly before her death at 99 years old in 2013. Because she was a woman, it was seen for many years that she should not be given rank above 5th Dan. So she remained that rank for far longer than she should have. Politics in MA are awful!

Perhaps it's a form in this book? http://www.amazon.com/Tae-Kwon-Classic-Forms-Hyung--Novice-ebook/dp/B00BLRLW3U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1433301475&sr=8-2&keywords=chung+do+kwan

Congratulations!!! Well done!!

I'm a Kukki-Taekwondo guy, not Karate, but I'll add mine. From white to 1st Dan 2 1/2 years 1st Dan to 2nd Dan 3 years (minimum time in grade is 1 year) 2nd Dan to 3rd Dan 19 years (minimum time in grade is 2 years) 3rd Dan to 4th Dan 4 years (minimum time in grade 3 years) 4th Dan to 5th Dan 4 years (minimum time in grade 4 years)

This may sound odd to some of you, and not at all odd to others. I had heard of this happening vaguely in Arts other than my own. I had been a 2nd Dan in my Art for 19 years when I started helping out a friend teaching his class who was very high rank in his Art (other than my own). We were having a discussion about my want to get my 3rd Dan in my Art, but was having trouble (at that time) finding an instructor in my Art. My friend said, quite matter-of-factly, "I'll get you your 3rd Dan." By that, he meant promote me in his Art. I didn't take him up on his offer, BTW. Has anyone else had that offer (or know first hand knowledge of someone who has had that offer)? I wonder how often this occurs.

I have a fun story about the 9th Dan Kuki-TKD Poomsae IL Yeo. When I started TKD in the early 80's, Poomsae was not important: sparring was EVERYTHING. So, consequently, Poomsae above Koryo (1st Dan Poomsae) were rarely done. By the time I had trained for 10 years, I'd only seen Tae Bek (3rd Dan Poomsae) in books: not in person. Over the years I'd found books that had the other yudanja Poomsae in them, but was never shown them in person. Flash forward to 2008. I was at the 2008 Hanmadang (a huge multi-national tournament held in Korea for Poomsae, breaking and demos, held in the US for the one and only time) with my students. I'm in the front row an hour & a hour from the start of the event. An older Korean gentleman (mid to late 70's) walks onto the floor and over to where I'm sitting. He's wearing dobok pants and a "wife-beater" t-shirt. I'm in street clothes. I don't know him and he doesn't know me. He warms up a bit, then he walks over to me. He says, "I want you to watch my form. I'm competing today & I'm nervous. I'm going to do it 10 times. Tell me how I'm doing." As he starts the Poomsae, I realize "Oh my, this IL Yeo!" At this event (then) everyone did their Dan rank Poomsae. He performed amazingly well with this difficult Poomsae. He walked over an asked very humbly, "how did I do?" "Wow, that was fantastic sir," I said. "I'm not sure if its good enough to win. Nine more times," he said. Each time was better than the previous time. He sweat BUCKETS in the time he did this Poomsae. He toweled himself off & asked for my thoughts (truly wanting my input). We talked for 15 minutes as he got his dobok top out of his bag & put it on. Between the embroidery on his belt & dobok, I discovered I was talking with GM Joong Keun SUH (1992 US Olympic TKD coach http://miamiflmartialarts.com/instructors/overview/)!!! He had no clue he was asking for help from a person who was seeing the form for the first time in person. I've seen IL Yeo done in person since, but few as good as his was that day.

In my org. and in my dojang we have strict minimum requirements for each gup rank. I hold belt testings 4 times a year, but if someone isn't ready, they don't test. If a student asks to test, they are run through a short "pre-test" to see how they look. A student can do well in their pre-test, and still fail the regular test if they don't perform well. It's not often done that someone asks their master to test at the Dan level. But it can be done if the student knows they have minimum time in grade & other requirements. What happens more often with our org. is our GM tells masters who haven't tested in awhile that they will test at the next opportunity whether or not they are ready. One master (who hadn't tested in 20 years) was told on a conference call of other school owners that he would test at an event in 3 months...and he had no choice. Humility of rank got pushed aside for "you need to have the rank befitting your time in grade and dedication to your grandmaster." It's a delicate balancing act between humility and having a rank worthy of one's experience.

To ask what the motivations of folks who start their own style to a group of folks who haven't done so will only get you guesses. Just like when on a tv news show they ask a panel of "experts" (who don't know the guy) why he shot up the gas station. Unless there is someone here who has done it, we really can't add informed knowledge for your question.

This is the book by GM Ik Pil KANG that I referenced. It is the best book on Kukki-TKD Poomsae to date. Very detailed about the current standard. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/899123724X/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d3_i27?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=0QC40V8BTXQ6WQRDV2QF&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktop

No, it isn't GM KANG. Here is a video of GM Kang.

Here are some applications (not THE applications, but some applications) of Han Soo. The gentleman referenced in the video, Ik Pil Kang, is very revered in Kukki-TKD Poomsae circles and literally wrote the book on the current Poomsae standard. GM LEE Kyu Hyung, the former Kukkiwon president, does this form very well. I can't seem to find a version that really shows off his interpretation of it, however.

More than 30 years ago, I trained with a very talented BB. He was sparring with another BB (who was a guest at our school) before class. One accidental low shot not apologized for turned into cheap shots on both guys' parts. Next thing that happens, our student wants to take the fight to the alley. Luckily, we had several respected BBs at class that night who prevented that from happening. When our master got there that night, he expelled his own student for good and made sure he no longer had a great reputation in our area. (Basically, our master told other masters the facts of what happened). Several years later, this guy went to jail for a number of years for molesting children. This guy is a different guy than the one I mentioned above. UGH.

I've not seen a belt taken away, but I have seen privileges stripped away. One guy I was acquainted with went to jail for molesting students. He's now persona non grata in Kukki-TKD circles. I do not know if his rank was stripped, but he'd be a good candidate for it.