MatsuShinshii

That's not unusual that's just wrong. He wouldn't be my teacher after that.

Unusual training places; In the snow during winter training camp and on an island one summer when I was a kid. The snow was different but I don't think it was all that unusual. I thought the island was cool except for the sand that seemed to get all over and caused me a bit of irritation every time I moved. I know, not that unusual but it's all I have. Unusual teachers - can't say any of them have been. Pretty straight laced for the most part. Some have their quirks but can't say they are unusual. I did have one teacher that would stop class and take us for a run. But again not that out of the ordinary. Sorry no cool stories here.

It's called PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). This can go on for a bit or for a life time. Its not something that everyone can get over nor do many even understand. If your friend felt at the time that he was in danger of loosing his life or felt immanent danger, it doesn't matter that he prevailed. Many vets prevailed and live with the effects of PTSD every day. In the worse cases it can lead to tragic results. The main reason that so many vets take their own life. If he is suffering from this the best thing for you to do as his friend is get him some help.

Wastelander, You beat me to the punch. Having said that you said it better than I could have. Solid post!

I knew you would have examples to show visually and the computer skills to put them on a post. I appreciate you jumping in and saving my technologically stupid self. It helps to have the visuals as I was struggling to do as good of a job of trying to explain it. Your help and knowledge, as always, is much appreciated. Thank you.

My entire organization split when my Shinshii retired and his most senior student decided to change what was being taught and how it was taught. At first it was almost a 50/50 split down the line because some liked his open charismatic personality over Shinshii's stanch strict way of teaching the art so many were over looking just what was to change as they made their decision to follow this man. I was Shinshii's second most senior student, only by grade/ not time, and was being petitioned daily to go along with these changes and with him. In the end I sided against him, not like it was a choice, and the organization fractured and has never recovered. I guess you could say it wasn't a good split. Many years prior to this, my Shinshii's first student decided to leave and start his own organization. I looked up to both this man and my Shinshii so when I was asked to join him it was very difficult. On one hand Shinshii was very much like a father and on the other this student was very much like a brother to me. In the end I sided with Shinshii even though this student was perceived physically to be better, Shinshii was the book of knowledge. He also was the man who invested countless hours, days, weeks, years and even decades into my betterment. In the end it was easy to choose and I was loyal to a fault. Some students returned shortly after following him. A year latter I knew I made the right choice as this other student was taken from us sadly when he was diagnosed with cancer and died a very short time later. His students scattered to the wind and his dream of an organization went with them. The students that did return were not up to the same standards as Shinshii's in terms of grade level. This showed me that physical appearance is not everything. Just because they look better doesn't mean they are. And just because they are very good at something themselves doesn't mean they can teach it well to others. My question; are these instructors better in terms of ability or knowledge or both? The reason I ask is many times we judge by outside appearance and forget to look past that. Many students followed my Shinshii's first student due to them perceiving his skill level being better than Shinshii's. However his knowledge of the art and knowledge of teaching the art palled in comparison when compared to Shinshii. You may want to think about this before making a decision. Remember your CI taught the instructor in question. That should tell you something. If this guy is that good, you have to wonder how he got that way. It's not just natural ability. He was guided and helped along the way. Just my 2 cents.

Maybe Wastelander can jump in here. He has a very good understanding of applications. Maybe he can clarify the mud.

Yes the principles that you learn are valuable. However what I am saying is that the movements in the Kata are not what you think they are on face value, but some are. Can they be a punch, strike, kick, block? Yes they can and sometimes are. Can they be a throw, vital strike, submissive hold, etc.? Yes they can and sometimes are. As stated blocks are not blocks. As you learn and then start to research and develop applications you realize first off that (using your example) Jodan Uke is not a block. It is a strike, a redirection, trap, throw, etc. but it is not a block. Can it be? Absolutely. But this is not what it represents in the Kata. Yes some techniques can be what we call Muto (Tegumi) and are takedowns, throws, sweeps and off balancing techniques. Maybe I should further clarify my arts definitions so you can understand where I am coming from; Founders applications - these are the applications that have been handed down from the founder (not necessarily your arts founder) that are combat tested and proven techniques that the Kata was created to house in order to pass down to new generations. Supposedly these are un-altered. In a few cases, and after researching, I know this is not true. However these are the applications that my teacher told me that his and his teacher passed down to him. Developed applications (practical applications) - this is where we show the student what we and others have found a technique to represent that meets the two rules (must be efficient and must have the potential to end the fight). This is also were the student gets to do their own research and study the movements to find possibilities beyond what they have been shown. This is were a student grows and develops an analytic mind and expands their understanding of the Kata and the art. Literal translation applications - this is the literal punch, block, kick, and strike that the Kata resembles. This is the most basic form of understanding. Having said that this does have it's merits in terms of teaching the student. For one the student learns how to move correctly (body shifting) and also learns to execute techniques (albeit basic) correctly (body mechanics) and they learn to breath correctly so that once these come together the student learns how to generate power in motion in a given posture. You can pick from any of these three and point to it and say "that's Kata". However all three are correct translations of the Kata. On the most basic form you have the literal translation and with these techniques you can fight. Just look at modern kumite as an example. On the more advanced form you have the founders techniques. Simple, effective and deadly (with the true understanding). On a similar advanced level you have the developed applications or what most call practical applications. This is where we get to add even more applications to our repertoire and in the process gain an even further understanding of combat methodology. In our art we teach the founders applications first, then the literal for reasons I explained then the developed. This all is continuous and not dictated by a grade or belt color. White belts begin to learn Pinan Shodan and with it the founders applications. It is a progressive process but by the time they are Sankyu they have a deep understanding of that basic Kata and have studied, researched and developed their own idea's. By the time they are Shodan they have a deep understanding of the basic Kata and are able to better understand the more advanced Kata as they are taught to them. So basically NO what you see is not the true translation of the Kata and YES it is. Confused? Hopefully not. I hope this clears things up but I must admit I'm rushing as I have a class getting ready to start. If it's still not clear I'll try to clarify more tomorrow.

If you already have a background (meaning years or study under your belt) then yes it is possible to continue your training via vids/books and the like if this is all you have. Having said that those avenues will never replace the teacher/ student class time. There are small bits of information that you will not get without the watchful eye of a good teacher. If you have never received instruction... I guess you could do it, albeit a long shot, but I wouldn't suggest it as you will not get the attention to detail not will you get all of the information in a 30 minute video. It just can not replace a good teacher and the interaction you get in a class. You also will not get the diversity of training with others of varying skills so that you can not only test yourself but find what works and doesn't for you. If that's all you have, well I guess its better than not training at all but I would highly recommend finding a good teacher to train with. Even if in another weapons art. You need to develop the fundamental techniques. Just my 2 cents.

We all go into the arts for one reason or another. Fitness and fun are or should be apart of your training. If your only looking for this aspect and you are able to get the exercise you require then so be it. The only thing I would caution is if you belong to a small school. Large schools tend to loose the individual in the mix. However small schools are of a different focus. The instructor tends to be more involved and focused on the individuals training. If this is the case he may be more invested into you developing the art rather than your cardio. If this is the case you may want to be up front an honest so there are no misconceptions down the road. Other than that, it's your journey and your experience. Make it what you want.

This worries me if it's true, because it means that masters of bygone times were as useless in a fight as any of modern times. I'm afraid I've missed your point. Why exactly would they be useless in a fight? The founders applications (Tichiki) are what created the Kata. The Kata is made from individual or sequenced applications that had been perfected and battle proven. If you are speaking of what we call literal translations of the Kata this is not the true applications. This is merely to teach the student proper timing, body mechanics, balance and how to utilize the basic foundation that every art teaches. Maybe I confused you in telling you that we teach this after the founders applications. Most teach basic first so I could understand if this is the source of confusion. We actually teach them the founders first so that their foundation is in the true meaning so as not to create bad habits or misinformation of what the Kata contains and represents. Please clarify your statement so I can answer it if I have not already done so. No it does not. Each (founders) movement or sequence of movements may have 1 or 20 (just to use a round average) applications that it represents. This harkens back to the argument that all you need is Kumite. The point is within each Kata (keep in mind that one Kata was literally an art and all the arts techniques and applications were contained within) there are 100's or even 1000's of techniques and applications. Kumite comes from Kata because Kata is the art itself. You are limited by what you can learn in Kumite and will only accumulate so many techniques were as the Kata teaches you to look outside of the box of punch, kick, block and give you an understanding of all of the other elements that make up your art. These elements are efficient and battle tested. Again you are speaking of the most generic and basic understanding of the Kata, the whole punch, block and kick understanding. Having said that if you understand the Kata and what it is telling you, the most basic techniques can end the fight. Lets take a simple strike in the Kata (Any strike, it really doesn't matter). The Kata tells us where to strike and how to strike correctly, as long as your teacher or his did not change or alter it. The study of Kata goes well beyond the foundational basics that beginners are taught. If you understand the elements that make up your art and understand how to extract them from the Kata so that you can study them you would realize that the Kata is vast with knowledge of combat effectiveness. This is why you can study a single Kata for 10 years and not have scratched the surface. Again I'm not totally sure of where you are coming from but I believe I have addressed this. If not please clarify. To further clarify my statements above; I spoke of the elements of your art. In my art the elements are as follows; 1. Atemi (percussive impact) - these are strikes, punches and kicks. Tuidi (Qin Na) - This is locks, chokes, traps, joint locks, breaks, submissive hold, grappling or laymens terms controlling the opponents body by manipulating it to induce pain and discomfort. Chibudi (Kyusho or Dim Mak) - vital area targeting. Muto (Tegumi) - this is throws, takedowns, sweeps and off balancing techniques. Chi'gwa (ground fighting) - fighting from the ground in order to get back to your feet. Not to be mistaken with MMA or Jujutsu. These come from various sources such as Ti (Di, Ti'gwa), Jiao Li, Qin Na, Dim Mak, Muay Boran, etc. Some Kata were passed down to the founders and others were created from lessons learned studying under different arts. The key to it is if you look to old (ancient) arts you will find that the art was housed in one or two Kata (Hsing). If this is true, and I believe it to be based on my experiences, then you can understand how the Kata is anything but limiting. Its vast in its secrets and the knowledge contained within. If you have never had an instructor teach you the true applications it's hard to imagine but it goes far, far beyond just basic punches, strikes, kicks and blocks. Oh and you find out there is no such thing as a block in terms of the definition used today. Hope that helps.

15th Dan???? I didn’t know there was such a thing. I know many arts use Judan or 10th Dan but 15th? Again I will hold my personal views as I know nothing about the art or the man. The bottom line is this; if you get something out of it then continue to train and don’t worry about whether the curriculum is legit or if you’re teacher’s legit. If not then find an art that you can get something out of. By the way, out of curiosity... are there requirements up to 15th Dan?

Onekickwonder, Although I understand your thought process I disagree with it. Being shown the applications opens the students mind and give understanding. You do not stop learning once you’ve been shown Tichiki. If fact the opposite is true. We teach what we call the founders applications, literal translation applications and developed applications. You learn the founders applications first, which we are taught are the applications passed down from the founder. Then once those have been learned we teach what we call literal translation applications. These are literally the punch, kick, block scenarios that you see being taught in most Dojo. This give the student a better understanding of what they represent and on a generic rudimentary level what it can also represent. After months of going through these individually and in two person drills and after becoming somewhat second nature, the student is then shown what we call developed applications or what most call practical applications. We teach them a few scenarios to get the mind of the student engaged and then have them look for other possibilities with two rules in mind; they must be efficient and effective and they must have the potential to end the fight. The student is not stuck in a rut. It’s the opposite. It opens the mind to possibilities and gives a deeper understanding of their art and the Kata’s within the art. The student can then realize how one Kata can be an entire art. And to answer your question about what if there is no application... the founders did not throw fluff into the Kata. Every movement represents something. If your instructor does not know what a particular movement or series of movements represents find someone who does or trace the origins to where the Kata came from and see what their applications are. What westerners call Bunkai, is the key to understanding your art. Without this knowledge it’s just random punches, kicks, and what most perceive as blocks. Basically an orchestrated dance of techniques.

In my case - I wish I would have explained less. I tended to go on and on about topics or techniques and applications till I beat it into everyone's heads. I guess it was my way of proving that I had depth of knowledge on the subject and to gain my students trust in my teaching abilities. What it really did was bore my students to death. My advice stick to brief explanations unless asked to expound on the subject. I now show the technique give a brief explanation and get right to it. If someone doesn't understand or wants to know more I'll speak with them after class instead of stopping the class. On another note don't let your expectations be lowered. Maintain your requirements. You'll have better students.

I am at work so I do not have access to my research material but off the top of my head... 3 - Saam Chien or Sanchin 13 - Seisan, Sesan, Seshan 18 - Seipai 24 - Niseishi or Nijushiho 28 - Nepai or Nipaipo 36 - Sanseiru 54 - Useishi or Gojushiho 108 - Peichurrin/ Pechurin - I believ this is Suparinpei if I remember right You may want to refer to the Bubishi as it has some links to the Chinese forms but again I do not have access to my copies so I hope this helps you out for now.

First off Kenpo/Kempo is a generic term like Karate. It mean fist law. It is not a new term nor was it invented in Hawaii although some styles with this name were. Whether Villari (And I'll hold my personal opinion) is legit or not isn't the issue. Whether SKK is considered legit by some is not the issue. The issue is do you feel it's effective? If they are teaching you sound and effective techniques that you can translate to real life then who care's where it came from, who invented it or whether it's Shaolin, Kempo or Karate? If it works for you then continue to train. If it doesn't then find an art that does. I have no idea what this art is or if it's effective. I do recall seeing this man when I was younger in one of the martial arts magazines (I think black belt). Having said that he is not the first to combine more than one art into a singular art. Do I believe it's legit? I have no idea. What I would be researching is a few things if I were concerned with the legitimacy of the art I was studying. 1. What grade did Mr. Villari hold in each of these arts and how long did he study them? 2. You said that Kata and requirements continue to change... I would look into whether there is a curriculum for the art. Maybe your teacher is the issue and not the art. Wouldn't be the first time someone studied for a time and decided to open their own school and started teaching without knowing the art past a certain grade (usually a low one). 3. Is it effective? Do you trust or have you used what is taught to defend yourself in a real fight (not in the Dojo). Did it work or did you get the you know what beat out of you? If what they teach is not effective then you probably need to move on unless of course your not taking the art to learn how to defend yourself. Maybe you enjoy the camaraderie and exercise. 4. Do you trust your teacher and what he teaches? Based on your post I would say you are questioning both. And on a side note: no, Kata usually do not change with the wind nor are they done or taught differently to each new class of students. They are the one true constant. If you have learned a Kata and they are now teaching it totally differently from what you learned I think I would be questioning the teacher. But that's me. Just my 2 cents.

regarding the bold highlighted: Seisan, Sesan, Seishan, Hangetsu are variations of the same kata. As far as I know this Kata was practiced in all early 1900s Okinawan styles, from Shuri-Te to Naha-te. I don't know when Seishan entered the Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu/Shotokan line but read somewhere that Matsumura already taught it. Looking at the significant differences between the Shuri-Te and Naha-Te versions it seems to have been introduced to Okinawan Karate quite a few generations earlier. From this it seems obvious that all Okinawan styles had some cross-fertilization and/or common sources (south China). To the underlined above - We know that Matsumura Sokon passed this Kata down but from where he learned it, there is no definitive documentation. Some speculate Ason, others Iwah and so on. To the bold above - prior to the Japanization of the Okinawan arts there was no such thing as Shuri-te (Suidi), Tomari-te (Tumaadi) or Naha-te (Nafaadi). These towns are literally within walking distance and all apart of the capital of Naha now. This was the Japanese attempt to categorize the art to fit it into a neat little package because the concept of each teacher teaching something different was not within their cultural ideals. Historians love to say this Kata came from this village or that but in reality most of the old teachers on Okinawa will tell you that there were no lines drawn. Sesan, Seisan, Seshan or whatever your art calls this Kata was one Hsing that came from China and is one of, if not the oldest Kata. The reason for differences and which one is the original or true representation of the Kata has been debated many times here and in most every forum and Dojo around the world. Many will point to the fact that it's most well known as a Goju-Ryu Kata and that all others copied or borrowed it. This is far from the truth as Matsumura brought this Kata back from China prior to other being born. This in no way is to say that it was original to Shuri-te, just that the Kata was taught to many and had been around long before any of them. My personal opinion is that the arts were changing as time went on and changed each time it was passed down do to individual preferences or regional preferences. Depending on how many generations have passed the form would have changed and been altered (albeit slightly) over that time period. Matsumura was in China some time around the 1830's. Higaonna Kanryo went to China in the 1870's. Kanbun Uechi went to China around the 1890's. Gichin Funakoshi- never went to China to my knowledge so would have picked up this Kata from one of his teachers and would not be included in bringing a version of this Kata to Okinawa. All three had different teachers but all studied in Southern China. Whether the form had changed during this time or whether each of these men put their own twist on the Kata is up for debate. Note* - It was not uncommon for teachers to tweak a Kata to make it their own or to add to it. You have to remember that a Kata/Hsing was the art itself. So to imagine that the Kata would change as each generation learned new techniques would not be out of the question. Beyond that I've read that each town or region would have their own versions of the same style of martial art due to influences. It would not be out of the question to imagine that Matsumura may have learned the same Kata but with a different spin than Higaonna or Uechi. This has been hotly debated in terms of White Crane, crane Kata and the differences between arts and whether they match or have anything in common with the original Southern Crane style of Quan Fa but this is for another post. In Higaonna's case he may also have learned this Kata from Arakaki Seisho who was Tudi master in his own right and would certainly have known this Kata instead of when he traveled to China. Matsumura may have learned this from any one of his teachers as well instead of in China. The possibilities go on and on. Having said that the versions do differ from art to art but are in their foundation the same Kata so any one of these examples would and could be plausible for the differences between them. I have learned the Matsumura, Goju-Ryu and Shotokan versions and although different are at their core (at-least in my opinion) the same Kata.

I think that is one of the best explanations I've heard in a long time. I love the analogy and the truth behind it. Solid post!

Curiosity question, if I may... If a student in your organization transferred to your school, let’s say he moved and his previous dojo is too far away, would you make him start at white belt again? If you knew his previous sensei and trusted his judgement? What if your shinshii granted that rank, ie a nidan grantee by your shinshii transferred to your school? If you’re all under the same organization, have the same curriculum, and know and communicate with each other, I don’t see how their rank shouldn’t transfer to another dojo within the organization. I’ll hopefully be testing for shodan next year under Tadashi Nakamura. If I passed then relocated to Hollywood and joined their dojo, I don’t know how I’d feel if they had me wear a white belt while they evaluated me. Granted, I’d have nothing to hide and my abilities would speak for themselves, but I’d also feel like if I was promoted by the Kaicho, then that shouldn’t be subject to their approval. I completely understand and agree with a confirmation phone call, email, etc., it if the head guy promoted me to that rank, who are they to question it (after official confirmation of course)? If I ran a dojo and someone from within the organization transferred to my school, I’d confirm with their teacher and honor the rank. If they weren’t up to standards, I’d address it then. Maybe I’m misinterpreting something? To answer your question honestly... in our organization (pretty small only 500+) I sit on the promotion board. If they were a Yudansha I would know it so yes they would enter wearing their grade. This however is the exception rather than the rule. In most organizations the schools belong, but don't really have ties past that. Basically there is no one over seeing each school and requirements can differ from school to school. A Shodan in one school could be considered a Ikkyu in another within the same organization. This is primarily do to size and number of members and an in-ability to control every school. In these terms they would enter as a white belt. To further complicate the issue, my organization has many, many sister arts. There are around 20 or 30 factions of Matsumura Shorin Ryu organizations. If a student from a sister art were to join (this has happened) they would enter as a white belt and be subjected to a test period before being placed according to their knowledge and skill. To even further complicate the issue, if a student was a Mudansha in our own organization they too would enter as a white belt until such time as to assess them. The reasoning for this is the organization testing board only over see's Yudansha and Kodansha students tests. All Mudansha tests are done in the individual schools/dojo's. Yes our curriculum in theory is the same however there is no one overseeing the management of each individual school/dojo and the instructor is left to do as they see fit as they are the owners up and until the student tests for Shodan. The reason I say this is because I've sat on the testing board for about a decade and I've seen some students come through and pass easily and others that had to return, and in some cases several times. You can pass down your requirements but it's impossible to micromanage every dojo/instructor and what they do within their own Dojo in every state and town. Although the curriculum and standards of the organization are set in stone, this doesn't mean that some instructors place the same emphasis on each grade as the collective does. Therefore a Nikyu may not be a Nikyu in every instructors eyes. As far as wearing a white belt is concerned. I have dawned a white belt every time I have taken up a new art. I also dawn a white belt and have all of my students do the same once a year to take the ego out of the equation. My Shinshii started this and I have maintained this tradition. Why? It teaches you that the belt around your waist means nothing. You are the grade not the belt. If in taking off the belt you feel like you've been somehow diminished you're putting to much emphasis in a piece of cloth and not enough in your own ability, skill and knowledge. When entering a sister arts Dojo (yes in theory the same art) I dawn a white belt and have no issue doing so. I tell them what grade I am and that is enough. Time and observation tell the tail better than the cloth around my waste. As Sensei8 likes to say the proof is on the floor. Hope this answers your question.

To the bold - great book! Can be applied to life, business, relationships, combat, etc., etc.

I've lost count of how many times I have read this book over the years.

MatsuShinshii, I agree with your distinction between the two. Some people are predisposed from birth to be braver than others. It is a character trait, much like some are born faster, or stronger, or more intelligent, etc. However, courage is something you can build in yourself and train to make yourself better. The best way to do this is to constantly put yourself out of your comfort zone. Do things that make you uncomfortable so that, once you accomplish the task, you realize you can succeed in this type of environment. There are many forms of courage. I guess I was mainly speaking of the courage it takes to defy your own fear, common sense and self preservation for others. Basically - to lay down ones life, if necessary, to save others. And even though this could be skewed towards the Military (which would be 100% true) this also extends to the fireman, the policeman, the strange on the streets that stops to help another stranger because it's the right thing to do, those that would make that snap decision, throw away common sense and rush to the aid of others no matter what their occupation or predisposition is in life. Courage is fighting every fiber in your body telling you not to do something but based on your convictions, you push the fear back and do it anyway. I have known many brave people in my life and have had the honor to know a few courageous people in my life. Believe me there is a huge and distinct difference between the two.

In terms of life... the lessons my father instilled in me and my family. In terms of the arts... my teacher, my students and my never satisfied need for knowledge. In terms of work... my family, my men (employees). Motivation is comes from our desire to do better for our selves and for those we care about.

Don't get me wrong I'm not defending anything and everything Dillman. I'm just using him as an example because he's known. IF he had anything legit he ruined it for himself and anyone attached to him. I have checked out his pressure point book a little and some of the stuff was pretty good, but that all goes down the same drain. There is something I heard the other day that kind of relates to that. If you take a drum of sewage and add one glass of a very old and expensive wine, what is it now? ................Sewage! If you take a barrel of very old and expensive fine wine and add a glass of sewage to it, what is it now? ...............Sewage! Great analogy. Very true.

I guess that depends on the definition of legit. Dillman was a Kata and breaking champion for 4 years according to most respected Karateka of the time. However some of his other claims are fraudulent, and that's putting it nicely. When Mr. Dillman first started teaching his Kyusho-Jutsu he made many claims that proved to be incorrect. First off he saw Seiyu Oyata Shinshii in a seminar demonstrating Kyusho. He started "studying", if you can call it that, under him for a very short period of time (rumor was a few seminars) and then instantly over night was a Kyusho master and claimed that Oyata was his teacher. Oyata was pretty upset with him and denounced him as an instructor under him (which he was not and never received any teaching credentials from Oyata). When he was asked who he learned Kyusho from he said Hohan Soken trying to distance himself from Oyata. However this is another lie. He met Hohan Soken at a seminar, once. He never studied under Hohan and it was proved so he backed away from that claim and stopped discussing who his teacher was all together. He claims to have been professional boxer for three years. There is no proof of him ever being a professional boxer. Ever! The worse is the fact that he is a self promoted 10th degree black belt. I don't know the time line of this man but I remember reading a few years back how he started under Harry Smith in Isshin Ryu in the 60's, was never promoted to Shodan but would wear a black belt around others in the attempt to get honorary grades in their arts. Since Oyata and Hohan did not actually teach this man for much time, in the later not at all. And neither promoted him to a legitimate grade how did George attain the grade of Judan? I was wrong. The worst is the fact that this clown claims to be a psychic and can knock you out with out ever touching you and scams 1000's of students out of their money teaching something that will do little except get them beat down. Legit? I guess that depends on your definition of legit. IMHO he's anything but legit.