MatsuShinshii

To me a belt (any belt) represents hard work, years of sacrifice, knowledge and proficiency up to that point in your art's and in your school's curriculum. Outside of your own art or school it means nothing. Outside of your school/art it represents to others, an assumption of a level of skills and knowledge. Why an assumption? Because no two arts or schools will have the same expectations. A Shodan from one art might be equivalent to a Sankyu or a Sandan in another art. Why? because not every art, organization, association, federation, school or instructor hold the same expectations. To walk into another school in another art and expect that your accolade given by your art/organization/school/instructor would be the same as the expectations of a completely different art/organization/school/instructor is ludicrous and arrogant. We all want to believe that our style is better or tougher than any other out there, our teacher was the baddest, most demanding out there, etc. So it stands to reason that the grade you were given by "x" should, in our minds, translate to the same grade in "y". Right? NO! The reality is, as humans we all have different expectations and ways of doing things. In reality an instructor will not do things exactly like his/her instructor nor will they have the same expectations or requirements. Why then would anyone think that this symbol, that only symbolizes their teachers expectations and requirements would be accepted by another teacher with their own set of requirements and expectations? The reality is those same people that would walk into a Dojo expecting to wear their grade from a different art would be the same people that would expect to be elevated to that grade without ever having taken a single lesson. Does this sound like a the trait of a true Yudansha/Kodansha? IMHO it does not. Would it not be expected to be tested for your actual skills and knowledge vs your perceived skills and knowledge and be placed accordingly? If not why study a different art? If you insist on being a BB even though you have never taken this art then why ever step through the Dojo doors to begin with? You're already a BB, right? Then why study another art if there is nothing to be gained by starting out at the beginning? If I have a masters in education would I expect an employer to accept this as a substitute for a masters in engineering? Why not, you have masters degree? Would you allow a family doctor to perform heart surgery on you? Why not? He is a doctor? Same thing right? Ludicrous expectations of the ego? IMHO absolutely! It is my opinion that those that wish to wear a given belt or retain a given title are those that are not secure in their own abilities and need a visual aid to let others know what and who they are. If you are what you say you are, others will know it. You certainly do not need a belt to let them know. Like Sensei8 says, "proof is on the floor". Your abilities will speak volumes without the need for visual reference. After all the reference is not for others anyway... it's for your own ego.

Honestly I had never even heard of the word(s) prior to joining this forum. I've studied Okinawan and Japanese arts and never heard an instructor or student say either of these words. As others have said I would think it is art specific and caught on from there via students migrating to other arts or other arts picking it up after hearing it. You know how we westerners are with words we do not understand... we latch on and believe we know the meaning even if we do not. Bunkai for example. Not the word for application. But somehow we made it so.

When I used to train as a teenager, in wado then kung fu, the instructors were very mean. But they were mean because they were instilling discipline while teaching combat. Back then, this was the 1980s, I've heard it was even worse going further back, being a martial arts instructor was a free ticket to be violent. They would step us mid technique, make us hold our position and focus while having a leisurely walk around inspecting. And then they test someone at random. A totally unprovoked punch to the face to see if you block it or evade in time. Or a leg sweep to test how solid your stance is. It sounds horrible, but it sharpish develops your mental readiness and attention to detail. If you blocked or dodges their random attack, they'd look at you for a moment, you'd look straight back at them with no emotion on your face whatsoever, they'd pause, you'd keep staring, then they'd give a subtle nod and move along the lines. I remember one day at kung fu. We had a new guy. He was only on his second or third class. Our grandmaster visited from China. I guess if he'd known this guy was only on his second or third class he might have cut him a bit of slack. Anyway, he'd stopped us mid technique for inspection. There we all were eyes forward, no expression on our faces, machine like. Except the new guy who was looking about and smirking. I saw grandmaster in my peripheral vision slowly heading down the line inspecting us. He got to me, made some subtle adjustments to my posture, and moved on. I remember being surprised that he walked straight past the fidgety guy. Then suddenly, all I heard was HAI. ... BOOM. The grandmaster had delivered a dragon tail sweep and the fidgety new guy had literally gone airborne, and crash landed flat on his back. He never came back to class after that day. I started in the 70's and I can attest to the difference in teaching styles then compared to the softer gentler side of teaching now. I have many stories of walking home with a broken nose, bruises and the occasional broken finger or toe. Even a few ribs. However I did not perceive it as being brutal. All instructors were the same in their methods of teaching. They were all very strict and they all believed in contact. However none of them, at least in my opinion, were out to hurt you. You were hurt in the process of training because you missed the punch and got hit. It wasn't vindictive or an excuse to beat on their students, it was real. I agree that now days these same men that we revered and respected back then would be looking at aggravated assault charges but then it was just common place and to be expected. I don't condone instructors using their students as punching bags, what-so-ever, but I do feel that the lessons then taught students how to fight vs the soft side of training that is seen in the vast majority of schools these days. 90% of schools practice no contact or very, very light contact. This might be great for those that are looking for a good work out but I feel it hinders those looking to actually learn how to defend themselves. I feel it robs them of lessons that can only be learned with contact. Do I feel that training might have stepped over the boundary line from time to time back then? Most assuredly. However there is something to be said for the lessons that contact teaches. 1. you loose your fear of being hit and realize it's not the end of the world. There are those in the MA's that have never been hit (really hit). I have known some of these people and it's interesting to see the first time they taste a solid strike. Lets say that the vast majority of the time they do not react like they thought they would. 2. you learn very fast. You don't want to get hit again so you improve very fast out of necessity. 3. you learn what works and what doesn't work. Lets face it, those that have never experienced the pain that some strikes produce on the body can be sold just about any bridge. A friends kid was taking, what he called Karate, and was showing me what they were learning. He was explaining what happened if you hit someone here or there. I asked him if he had seen the effects first hand and he admitted that they do not actually contact other students or instructors for that matter. 30% of what he thought was effective would possibly cause some minor damage and 70% would just serve to anger the attacker more unless you were fighting a complete wimp. 4. you actually could fight by the time you reached Shodan. Believe it or not there was a time that you had to be able to defend yourself by a given time to be promoted. "I know, I know, it's just another step on the rung and just another belt". I've heard it all before but there was a time when you had to prove your ability to fight and the way you were taught fostered those abilities and produced students that could not only handle themselves but do it well. Of course that was then and this is now. Nothing lasts forever. Nothing good anyway. There are some that would say there is never a reason for contact. I for one believe whole heartedly in it. I personally do not believe that you can teach a combat art without realism. Brutality, No. Contact and realism, Yes. But then again, that's coming from someone that didn't think teachers back then were just violent people with a license to brutalize their students but actually people that wanted their students to be able to fight. Maybe I'm wrong.

Happy Birthday JR 137!

Welcome to KF!

Good luck!

Congrats on earning your Sandan. Shodan and Sandan were the toughest.

That's pretty much it in a nut shell.

As singularity6 eludes to there are exercises that you can do to strengthen the fingers. Stretching the fingers also helps. Missing a block and catching the full impact of a kick does tend to jam the fingers. Since you are un-prepared for this type of impact I'm not sure if exercises would do anything to help.

You're hitting the proverbial nail on the head.

To the bold, this is a student. I would enforce the wearing of the white belt as well. In total agreement with your instructor. My question is, if you accept these students who insist on wearing belts from other schools/organizations/styles of MA, what kind of students are they actually going to turn out to be? Ones that expect their way every time? That precedent has already been set from day one. Will they cherry pick techniques rather than actually learn the techniques’ context within the art, let alone the entire art (or as much as an entire art can possibly be learned)? Wanting or better yet insisting on wearing a belt from elsewhere says a lot about the prospective student to me. And not very much of it is good, to put it mildly. My CI had a great line in there somewhere. It went along the lines of “how ridiculous would it be for me to expect to wear my 7th dan belt and be treated as a 7th dan on my first day as a judo student? I’d be just like everyone else who stepped onto a judo mat for the first time - a white belt.” I really can’t top that line. Totally agree. Unfortunately there are those that think that because they earned it (in another style/art) they shouldn't have to go through the process again. They think they should be extended some sort of courtesy as if what they accomplished should be accepted and transfer to your art. Many, many moons ago a 8th dan in TKD visited our school and wished to take a class. My Shinshii told him he was welcome to take a class and told him to return on a day and at a time. He entered our Dojo in his Dobok (not sure of spelling) and was wearing his belt. I was teaching the class (Mudansha) and he noticed my grade (Sandan at the time) and realized that the students were beginner and intermediate grades. My Shinshii, as was his way, was sitting in his office watching me and the class. The 8th Dan saw him and walked a bee line into his office and shut the door behind him. Not sure of the content of the discussion but after a minute of discussion Shinshii handed the man a white belt and pointed at the class as he muttered something. The 8th Dan stormed out of his office, threw the Obi across the floor and left. When the class was over and it was just me and Shinshii, he told me that no matter what grade I reach never allow it to go to my head. He said that a true MA'ist always maintains a beginners mind and as such doesn't care what color belt is tied around their waste. The next week he came into the Dojo, as if to make his point, carrying a box. He walked to the front of the class and opened it and started passing out white belts. No one knew what to make of it until Shinshii himself removed his belt and put on the white belt. He then instructed us all to do the same. We all wore white belts for a month. At the end of this period he asked us, "did wearing a different colored belt change your level of skill", "Did you feel differently"? To this he added "you make the belt not the other way around, we are all students of the art no matter what grade you wear. When you reach that place that you have nothing left to learn you can wear any belt you choose and anywhere you like, but until then your still students". Since then I and so many others have utilized this lesson with our students and ourselves when ever grade/rank/belts/titles become whats important rather than our training. I figure if I can remove my grade and dawn a white belt in my own art I should have no issue wearing it in any other art. If you enter a new art under a new teacher in a new Dojo, you are a beginner. Beginners wear a white belt. No one cares what belt or title you hold in another art. I figure if you really love that belt that much and insist of wearing it, then you should do so in your own Dojo. In mine you'll wear a white belt and if you join at the right time you might see me doing the same. I just don't get how wearing a belt (any belt) somehow diminishes you or elevates you. The belt is a representation of you. In your art it represents your a BB. In a new art the white belt represents you as well, as a beginner. In my mind you're not much of a BB if such trivial things are so important to you.

In Naihanchi, I would say all of the above. If you think about the applications, they pretty much cover the spectrum you just described. Obviously not both feet at the same time. Meaning if you're executing a technique to the right side the arrows would be inside for your front foot and outside for your rear foot based on the direction of force. Obviously from a front view there would be no front or back foot. Hope that made sense.

I just answered a simple question. Where does this kick rank technically relative to other practitioners. I got a reply that it's below 1st Dan in Karate (and presumably then TKD) , and referenced a seminar in return where every single black belt apart from the instructor threw sloppy, slow roundhouse kicks. And I have already mentioned that I am a red belt in TKD, which is brown belt equivalent in Karate. A lot of assumptions. You're trying to make comparisons and that just doesn't work. Just because some random practitioner from some other random art is wearing a BB doesn't mean he meets the requirements of every art or even every school within a certain art. To say that this technique or that is of this or that level is ridiculous. Who says that it's of a certain level? You? What do you base your information on? Have you studied under an instructor that has very high standards? Have you asked them where you rank? By your own admission your a red belt. What years of study do you draw upon to make such assumptions of what level a technique is at? Kind of arrogant if you think about it. Your statement on your level vs Karate... what art? who is the instructor? what are their standards. This is an assumption based on generic statistics. Why is it so important to judge yourself against others? Are they going to take the test for you? Are you building your case in case you don't pass your test? Are you going to show your instructor these video's of others and point to that and to validate what you believe? This is not in the spirit of the martial arts. Your responsible for yourself. Your instructor doesn't judge you based on how well or poorly someone else executes a technique. I think you have the wrong impression. Techniques and the execution of said techniques is just a part of what your are judged on. A small part. Your character will also be judged. Arguing with others about what level you think your at, when they are at or well above that level, doesn't show respect for those that took the time to give you advice or their opinion and it certainly doesn't show humility. Tearing down someone else to make yourself look good is NOT a trait of a Yudansha. Period! Your asking for others opinions. When you don't get the feed back you wanted maybe that should tell you something. We are all here to learn and to pass on the knowledge that we have accumulated over years (and in some cases a life time) in the spirit of becoming better and helping others become better. I've been studying for over 3 decades. With all due respect; if you were my student and showed that lack of respect and humility I would not grade you to Shodan no matter how excellent your kick was. Bottom line.. your kick might very well be at the level you think it is but "you're" not at that level. Ask for advice in the same spirit that others give it. They are not knocking you by telling you the truth and they are certainly not answering you because they have nothing better to do. They do so because they love the arts and wish to help others. Instead of defending what "you" believe to be true take this and use it to become better. After all that is why we are all here. In life we get knocked down a lot and get very little affirmation. You have two choices; fight with everyone that disagree's with you or take what you can from it and improve. My advice... join a school and find out what your asking of the members here. NO ONE is going to be able to grade you off of 2 second video's so you'll never get what you seek until you find an instructor who can judge you for your skills, all of them. Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

To the bold, this is a student. I would enforce the wearing of the white belt as well. In total agreement with your instructor.

To the bold above; yes they wear their BB if they are teaching. If I get invited by another art to teach then I wear my grade as I am there in the capacity of a teacher not a student. If I were going there to learn I would wear a white belt as I would be considered a beginner.

To the bold above, Ego, you hit the nail on the head. I personally don't understand this thought process or what is in someones mind when thinking that a grade transfers to a new art. It's great that you earned a BB in another art. Wear the belt when you study that art. In a new art you're a white belt. You know nothing about the new art so in what universe would someone think that wearing a BB is acceptable. It sends the wrong message all the way around. If a student has a problem wearing a white belt then they know where to find the door. I have never worn a black belt when starting a new art nor would I ever think it was ok to do so. Conversely I've never allowed a student to wear a BB until they had earned it. Ego Seems to be common place anymore. Humility seems to be the exception. Personally I see no need to feed into someones arrogance and ego. Wear a white belt/ wear no belt or hit the door. Personally I wouldn't waste my time on someone that would be arrogant enough to presume they could walk through the Dojo door wearing anything other than a belt that defines what they are in my art, a beginner! The way I was brought up in the arts... I wouldn't even think to ask to wear my BB from another art or presume I could. It's rude. But then I'm that "traditional" type of guy.

Depending on who you talk to you will get varying accounts of when or when not to teach students applications (Tichiki). I teach as my Shinshii taught me. The Kata is taught in it's entirety. Once the student has a foundation (has the rudimentary movements down) we start to teach them the applications and also focus on the movements, body shifting and weight distribution. This does not all happen at once. We might focus on the first few movements and the different applications they represent and incorporate the movement, body shifting and weight distribution to give better understanding. Once the student has learned a few applications we have them partner up against students of various sizes to utilize their new knowledge. At first the partner is cooperative. After a bit of time the partner becomes less and less cooperative until the partner completely resists and tries to thwart the students attempts to apply the application. This allows the student to understand what works for them and what doesn't. I do not believe that every application works for every student. Body types, mechanics and the like will dictate what works best. I personally have studied arts that hold off all explanations of Kata and what they represent until you reach the Yudansha grades. However I have never understood this. I personally feel it is best to teach the student the applications when they start to learn the Kata. In this way it gives the Kata meaning and I don't have to double back once they reach Yudansha to re-teach them every Kata. It also gives the student a deeper understanding of the art from the start. May not be right for everyone but that is how I was taught and it's the way I prefer to teach the art.

Sounds good. If the teacher is good and respectful, then I wouldn't worry too much about other students. When you step into the training hall, there are really only 2 people in there. You and the teacher. Of course you have to be aware of everyone else, so you don't collide with each other. The exception being in any form of partnered work. Then there is only you and your training partner, and an awareness of the teacher. Every time we set foot in the training hall, our goal is to become better in some way than we were last time we practiced. The goal is not to be better than anyone else. It is to be better than your earlier self. If there are people there laughing at you, that means they are comparing themselves to you, which in turn means they are not focusing on their own improvement. If you can focus on your self in spite of others laughing and judging, then you have an immediate advantage. You will improve faster than them in every way. Good luck and stick with it. Your determination and focus will pay off. To the underlined above, very solid points! The martial arts is not about how good or poor others are but about how well you become. There is rarely anyone to fight your battles so to waste time analyzing your fellow students is a mute point. Concentrate on yourself and ignore those that would judge you. As stated you will overcome them in due time and that will end the ridicule and laughter.

I'm with you on this. I have never found a reason to use high kicks.

To compare ones self or ones technique to a belt is not reasonable. One technique does not qualify one for a specific grade (rank/belt). It's the culmination of years of study, knowledge and skills that an instructor judges a student by and thus grants a grade to signify that students level based on the totality of said skills and knowledge. This is akin to saying because I can hit a 90 mile an hour fast ball I should be classified as a pro even though I can't throw or catch a ball and do not understand the game. It just doesn't work. Being able to throw a perfectly executed kick is different from understanding how to do the same in in an actual fight. To be able to punch through a 2' concrete wall is useless if you can not hit your target because you do not understand how to set it up. Its a ridiculous assumption. One technique does not mean anything no matter how well you execute it. If your looking to find out what level your skills are at I would suggest joining a school and finding out. The instructor after a few months of classes will place you according to knowledge and skill.

We use a very natural/relaxed stance (you could call it Shiko-Dachi). The back is straight, butt pulled in to align the hips and spine and the stance is high. The feet are pointed slightly outward but not quite as much as a traditional Shiko-Dachi. The stance is however called Naihanchi-Dachi. I guess our version if you will.

Congrats Shortyafter. Well deserved.

After this is all said and done, the talking and articulation begins. This is what will likely make or break you in the eyes of law enforcement. But it depends on the agency and who you get. What could happen is you get detained for a time, explain your side of what happened, they hear the other side of what happened, and then they decide who, if anyone, goes to jail. Or, citations could just be issued, and you have to come to court. It just depends. Having good witnesses always helps. What could also happen is that cops show up, see two guys fighting, and they step in and arrest both parties. Then you get to go to the station to write up your statement. Hopefully, there are some witnesses they get statements from that corroborate your side of the story, and you come out without charges. Here's a third scenario. No cops are involved, so you avoid that aspect of it. But they guy you fought ends up going to the hospital and gets treated for injuries, however serious, and then wants to try to stick you with the bill. If there is nothing criminal being filed, he's likely to come after you in civil court, at which point you're looking to hire an attorney and have to pay those fees to defend yourself in a whole new fashion. So, there are a few scenarios to mull over. If you have further questions on one or more, please ask away. You make some good points. When involved in a physical confrontation the police might or might not be involved and criminal charges might or might not be pressed as well as civil charges. But the fact of the matter is, if you hurt somebody you do have to own up to it and you do have to answer for it. Depending on how badly you hurt them, you could very well end up in court. My principle is not to attack innocent people and not to go picking fights but if a grown man gets physical with me I will respond with physical force and usually to a much greater level than if its a woman or child. I would also like to point out that if my assailant has the name Christopher that should give me more of a right to use force and hopefully I should be able to use that in court to my favor. I wouldn't want it to come to that but if somebody else insists on having a physical confrontation I will deal with them as I should. I've read and re-read this but still don't understand the significance of the name Christopher. Is there an inside joke here or what am I missing?

Me too.

Although I don't teach kids I am a father so I will give one piece of advice; Patience, patience, patience, patience and a lot of Tylenol.