MatsuShinshii

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After watching the fights I have to agree with Bulltahr's statement. Point fighters fighting full contact. They did not follow up most of the time when they got their opponents in a vulnerable position. They fought in wide stances and lunged in almost hoping to win a point. I probably would not watch that again unless they get away from the point sparring mentality. IMHO... Boring! Big Yawn!

All too often I think it's human nature to judge based on what little we see or understand of a given art and base it in it's superficial appearences. I am guilty of this very thing. I have had my own opinions of certain arts but after taking them have adjusted that opinion based on experience. IMHO all old arts have merit. They obviously were created out of necessity to protect oneself and were used with success. If not I doubt that they would have survived for as long as they did. However many have been altered to fit a persons or a nations prescribed needs and thus has also changed the core intent and focus of the art. On seeing this, outsiders make judgments based on superficial concepts and components of the art rather than digging deeper to find the founders intent. Saying that this art looks a certain way after only studying it for a sort time or worse based on looks alone is without merit or true knowledge and not based on real experience. To state that Karate Kata is more rigid than say Kung Fu is on the surface a very true statement. Anyone can observe this. However to say it has no flow... in terms of what? Are we speaking of the surface or is this based on years of study and decades of experience? I feel as though there is a lot of flow in Kata. In the actual performance of Kata, well not in the terms some speak of. However once you break it down to it's core principles which are the applications it was created to house and pass down and you inject these applications into two person drills meant to teach one to fight, there is more than enough flow to satisfy any Kung Fu practitioner. Or maybe that is just one persons opinion. I think many things are dependent upon how they are taught and what the intent and focus is. If taught like dance you see dance, if taught like combat you see combat, if taught rigid all you see is rigid. Many teach Karate in-particular very rigidly. Some teach it naturally and the movements are free of rigidity. It all depends on the individuals experience. Having said, opinions all too often are based on the norm rather than taking into account those that do not proscribe to the norm. It's like saying that TKD is an art of kicks. Not true but depending on your experience and observations you may well come to that conclusion and pass it as fact. Not everything is wrapped up in the same neat little box. Either way, I feel that many times when statements are made about an art it is based on what we see on the surface rather than what at it's true meaning. Just my 2 cents.

You're partially right. You do want to train with methods and techniques that you would use should you ever be in a real fight but at the same time there are certain training methods and techniques that you would not use in a real fight but are nonetheless good training methods to help you be better in a fight. Two examples would be katas and high kicks. With katas, if you ever do get in a real fight you're certainly not going to start doing your kata but katas do teach you certain patterns of movement and combinations of techniques that can be very effective in a real fight. IMHO yes and no. Yes they do teach movements that are relevant and also the combinations of techniques do help train the muscle memory and can be helpful in a fight. However I do not personally agree that this is all that Kata contains that is beneficial in a fight. These things are superficial and do not speak to the core of the Kata. The applications combined with two man drills teach the combat techniques and instill muscle memory. I will not state that they have the answers to every type of attack but will say that they teach you more than enough to adapt to a given attack and provide enough tools to counter and overcome. I agree with you in terms of high kicks in a real fight. I also agree with you in terms of benefits although we do not use them in training. I however have trained in arts that utilize chest and head level kicks and in terms of flexibility and even execution in some terms, I think they have there place. Having said that we do not utilize them for multiple reasons.

Well put.

Congrats! Well deserved.

LOL!

I have no idea. It's probably what you describe below: Still, it'd be nice if I was thrown a bone every once in while in terms of understanding things a little more deeply. Sounds like you have an old school type teacher (most likely a westerner) that believes that the student should find their way with very little help and/or they feel that if you can make it to Shodan (based on time in grade) then you are serious and therefore worth teaching. IMHO a student should be guided by his/her teacher but not spoon fed. Meaning that the student has to have the drive to discover, through training, things for themselves and helped along with those lessons not easily learned through training. I agree with your instructor in that the student will learn more through experience rather than being led by the hand in all things. However, and I say this with respect as I don't know your teachers intentions or methods, I do not feel that waiting five or more years to start to teach ones students makes any sense in terms of the students growth as a martial artist nor in fostering the drive their students have towards the art. My Shinshii always told us that "you give a sip and the student thirsts for more, you give them a gulp and they no longer thirst, you give them nothing and they will die". Essentially if you guide the student along the way and give them enough to come to their own discovery their enthusiasm and drive will increase and they will strive to learn more. If you teach them everything and do not allow them to grow on their own they will eventually loose their passion and become lazy. If you teach them nothing they will eventually leave because you have not instilled anything worth striving for. Having said this I also picked up on your comment that you wish they would "throw you a bone" in terms of understanding things more deeply. Do not take this the wrong way as I may be reading to much into your statement but if your teacher is teaching you the curriculum, the same he was taught and in the same manner, then he is doing his job in teaching you Karate. Wanting more is a product of this new generation. Again please do not take this wrong but, if your instructor is teaching you the Mudansha curriculum and you are progressing as such because of that teaching, then you have nothing to complain about. I feel, based on your comment, that you think you should be learning the curriculum of higher grades than your's and there is nothing to say that your instructor has to teach you these things. In fact I would say he should not. I spent 7 years learning the Mudansha grades. Back then this meant you learned 4) Kata. This may not sound like much to learn to get to Shodan. However I personally think that we learned mountains over what is taught today. To spend on average two years per Kata and being forced to perfect not only the movements but to discover and understand the applications as apposed to learning 8 to 10 Kata in less time. It's great to learn a new Kata but if you move on before understanding the last one what then have you really accomplished? Knowing the movements and being able to copy is different and worlds apart from true understanding. There are lessons to be learned that those that rush to just learn movements can never understand. As I have told others here... slow down and enjoy the journey. Take the time to perfect the basics and learn the lessons they teach. You can't get this time back. Take full advantage of it and stop looking to the future. It will still be there. You have a unique benefit as you have the time to learn all that you can. If your Sensei requires you to spend "X" years before testing then you can either spend that time perfecting what you have learned and be all the more better for it and have an advantage over those that did not or you can spend your time wishing you where learning the next step and loose that valuable time. Worse if you do not spend the time perfecting what you have learned who's to say you get promoted at all? Nothing in life is guaranteed. Earn it and it will mean 1000 times more. Too many want things right now and miss out because they are too busy skipping ahead. Sooner or later you will have to retrace your steps or forever stay where you are at. You'll hit the wall of knowledge and ability. If I graded you to Shodan today do you think you would grade to Nidan along with everyone else that spent the time learning the lessons that you missed or do you think it would take you much longer? Sooner or later you will have to learn the lessons to move on. May as well do it when you have the time. After all you said it yourself, "they are not allowing you to learn anything advanced". Why not take the time to perfect what you know and be the best you can. Then when you hit that magical time in grade mark you will be twice the Karateka and you will have earned the grade. And more importantly if your instructor is the type to test to see if you are worthy, when you come to test and have perfected what he has taught you, you will earn his respect and he will most definitely take your training serious from that point on. Trust me it means a thousand times more... no... a trillion times more when you work hard for something and then accomplish it. Squeaking by eventually means others will eventually pass you by. Just my 2 cents. And again forgive me if I misread what you intended. This is however what I interpreted from what you wrote.

To the bold - I'll just say that if you are a year away from testing for Shodan and you have not improved since you have started there is something wrong. Not talking about you personally. If you have been training for "x" number of years and have not improved substantially and gained confidence in your abilities to defend yourself they is something missing. I mean, I sure I have, but I don't feel like I am anything special, if you know what I mean I get it, however you should not feel this way with only a year till you test. By that point you should have confidence in your abilities and should be able to see marketable improvement from when you started.

Struggling_Mudansha, First off I want to apologize as I misunderstood your post. Second I want to comment on the "Students do not earn the right to train until they make Shodan." quote in your post. I have no idea what this means and do not understand this statement. The only thing I can come up with is what I consider the students probationary period to verify they are serious about training and have the right mentality and character. However not having the right to train until you are a Shodan makes absolutely no sense to me. What exactly does this mean? Are you not taught the curriculum of the Mudansha grades? Are you treated as a guest rather than a student until that time? What does this actually mean? All of my students (once they prove that they are there to learn - probation) have the right to train.

I wonder about this sometimes. Let me throw in a scenario. In our style, we have several arm lock techniques. They can very broadly be divided into two categories. One involves hype extending the opponents elbow, forcing their arm straight. The other doesn't depend on their arm being straight, but instead takes advantage of their bent elbow as leverage to put torsion on their shoulder. I prefer the latter. I personally find it much easier to apply and sustain. But our club teaches both. So even though I don't like the straight arm version, I'll still teach it to newbies. Simply, because I don't think I could really adopt the technique doesn't mean someone else can't. I also don't like some of the more acrobatic kicks, but I'd still help teach them, because our younger, thinner, lighter students have no bodyweight to rely on, so for them the fast longer range stuff is their advantage. So I sometimes wonder, if a teacher doesn't like a technique, yet sings it's praises, is he really a hypocrite, or is he acknowledging that everybody is different, with their own strengths and weaknesses, and what is really a bad technique for one might be very well suited to another? I understand what your saying and agree that we all have preferences. I found that I do not execute wrap around throws well but can use other types of throws with devastating effectiveness. Others are able to utilize these throws effortlessly and are very effective with them. I would never say that these throws are useless because others can use them very effectively. Yes it's my preference not to use them because they do not work well for me, I think primarily because of my body type or mechanics. In your example; we use both forms of manipulation and have found both very effective based on circumstances. I can use either with devastating efficiency and love executing both. You prefer one over the other but teach both. This makes perfect sense as you understand that it works for others. The difference in your example and what I previously posted is you understand that it may not work well for you or you may prefer one over the other but you do not dismiss these techniques as you understand they are effective. In my post I was speaking directly to those that would put on one face while in one set of people and then turn around and put on another face in front of others. I guess it boils down to this - if you had been told for decades that this is the best thing since sliced bread and later you happened to see your instructor with their peers and over heard them say that what they were teaching you was useless what would you think? I'm not saying you have to drink the kool-aid, but to teach something that you know in your heart of hearts is useless (at least in you opinion) but turn around and tell others it's effective makes you a Hypocrite or a charlatan. If you do not believe in something at all, why would you teach it? If a technique doesn't work for me and conversely for anyone else then I will not teach it. If I did I would be a fraud. If it doesn't work for me but does for others and I teach it to my students then I'm a teacher. This is what we are there for. The student can discover if it works for them on their own after they are taught it. There is a difference between something not working for you and acknowledging it (I tell my students that this technique doesn't work well for me but it works very well for others, try it and form your own opinion) and teaching something that you feel strongly enough that it's useless that you would tell your fellow instructors your views but then turn around and put on a totally different face in front of your students. There are instructors that are of the opinion that Kata is useless and they refuse to teach them. I respect this. I think they are wrong but I respect them for their stance and strong beliefs. I feel that Kata is invaluable and teach it as such, they think I'm wrong. Neither of these are hypocritical. Its a strongly held opinion that others may not agree with but you hold to your convictions. To say one thing but think another is not a conviction, it's hypocritical IMHO.

Worst mistake - Giving too much power to a senior student. Circumstance - Student thought that he was in charge of the students he was teaching. Took steps to undermine my teachings. Treated his student with no respect. Fix - removed him from that class and took it back over myself. What I learned - to identify a students character and actions before giving them my trust. Back ground - I was getting over loaded at work and five night a week were starting to take it's toll so I had one of my Nidan students take over a class on Tuesdays and Thursday nights so I could catch up and relieve a bit of my stress. My mistake was not thoroughly evaluating him teaching prior to putting him in that position.

Just keep training and enjoy the journey. All things become possible with time and practice. You'll reach your goals, just don't get hung up on time.

To the bold - I'll just say that if you are a year away from testing for Shodan and you have not improved since you have started there is something wrong. Not talking about you personally. If you have been training for "x" number of years and have not improved substantially and gained confidence in your abilities to defend yourself they is something missing.

A great source of stress, anxiety, sleepless nights and even depression. I promised myself that I wouldn't be swept up by the idea of achieving a black belt; I would train to the best of my ability, regardless of rank. And for the most part, I've done just that. I have everything but two drills memorized that is required for all color belts (and I'm still just a sankyu). I even managed to pick up two black belt katas from a seminar last year. However, after three years of my scrawny body getting put through the ringer three times a week, the mileage is starting to show. Training now is causing me a great deal of stress because I've lost the enthusiasm I had a few years ago. It feels like I'm just hanging on for that mystical belt and certification. I've also found out that I'm not fond of teaching. I mean, I enjoy helping anyone who asks for my help (and I'm honored that those people approach me) but teaching kids with ADD can be a nightmare sometimes. My trips to the dojo used to be a way for me to get away from my stressful life, but now that luxury is gone. Finally, the black belt can be a symbol of oppression at times. What I mean by that is some Yudansha feel it's taboo for a colored belt to learn anything higher than their grade. Some of the more open-minded black belts don't mind, but whenever I practice Gojushiho (our first Shodan kata), I get a few stinkeyes. In many cases, I feel I'm ready to start training more advanced drills or forms, but the belt system makes that almost impossible. My favorite thing about seminars is fact that I can jump into a group of black belts and have the ability to train like one, regardless of my colored obi. All I've ever wanted to do from the very beginning was learn Karate, but the unfortunate reality is that I wont get that luxury until I make Shodan. I'm now in a rut to where I'm going to have to wait another grueling 2 and 1/2 years just to get that simple desire. I think the most depressing thing is I might be another one of those students who'll quit after I make it to shodan, because the journey was so arduous that I'll have absolutely nothing left. There are so many things I want to address in your post; 1. "A great source of stress, anxiety, sleepless nights and even depression." 2. "Training now is causing me a great deal of stress because I've lost the enthusiasm I had a few years ago. It feels like I'm just hanging on for that mystical belt and certification." 3. "Finally, the black belt can be a symbol of oppression at times." 4. "In many cases, I feel I'm ready to start training more advanced drills or forms, but the belt system makes that almost impossible. My favorite thing about seminars is fact that I can jump into a group of black belts and have the ability to train like one, regardless of my colored obi." 5. "My favorite thing about seminars is fact that I can jump into a group of black belts and have the ability to train like one, regardless of my colored obi." 6. "All I've ever wanted to do from the very beginning was learn Karate, but the unfortunate reality is that I wont get that luxury until I make Shodan." No disrespect intended but you are not a Shodan. I understand that you feel like your at that level but it's obvious your instructor does not feel the same or they would have already given you the grade. IMHO you are missing the point altogether. The Mudansha grades are a chance for you to learn the basics. The foundation to all principles, theories, techniques, movements and applications that you will learn beyond that point. This is a typical problem I have seen since I first started teaching. Everyone wants to skip over the most important time in training to get to a belt. Forget about the belt. If you do not master the basics that belt will literally mean nothing. To me it sounds like your in a hurry to achieve something that in your mind obviously means you've arrived. My 2 cents is slow down and enjoy your time and learn all you can. Fast forwarding to BB just means you get to wear a black piece of cloth that will mean nothing. Concentrate on perfection of the basic skills and the basic Kata and the belt will come and more importantly have meaning other than a piece of cloth. You say all you ever wanted to do is learn Karate and you can't do that until Shodan. This makes no sense. There is a reason that everyone starts at the beginning and works up from there. You have to learn to walk before you can run. It's not personal and everyone has to go through it. There are lessons that you will learn beyond memorizing a bunch of techniques. This takes time and can not be fast forwarded. The lessons do not come from a manual, they come from constant practice. Your not a Shodan and that is why your not treated as one. Your Sensei doesn't teach you advanced Kata because your not at an advanced level yet. There is a reason why it takes the time that it does. You have to mature both physically and mentally. If I taught you advanced principles and techniques you wouldn't grasp them fully. Because of this you have to first understand the basics and the lessons that they teach you. Not just being able to memorize and perform them but know them and understand them. Just because you know a few cords doesn't mean you understand how they fit together nor how to make them sound like music. If you quit learning after knowing a few cords, yes you can strum your guitar but you're never going to be Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Les Paul or anyone else that paid their dues to become great. You can't reach to those heights because you skipped past the most important lessons. Hopefully you understand what I am saying. Spend time trying to understand the lessons found in learning the basics. They give you a foundation to build from and eventually you will have the many ah ha moments when you suddenly realize what was once not apparent. This will never happen if you skip past these lessons. Advanced Kata is like all other Kata. They all have lessons to teach the practitioner. One does not hold all of the secrets which is why you learn them all. Again all in due time. Slow down and stop stressing about a belt. The belt is just another beginning. If you truly feel you'll quit after receiving the belt you might as well quite and just go buy yourself a BB now because again you will have missed the point altogether. It's a LIFE long journey. Three years is literally a drop in the bucket and Shodan is not the end of the journey but a beginning.

Yes it was. In most cases the alteration was in the smallest details. Things as simple as the direction or angle of a technique or the target of a technique can make it 100 times more effective. Some things we do were kept the same without change as was passed down from the founder but were not as effective as they should be because the smallest detail had been lost or altered through the years. Small details made the difference and put our segment of the art back on track with what I personally feel is what the founder would have passed down as he learned it. I think for the most part this is common place and just part of our own vanity as instructors or a misinterpretation or misunderstanding (lost in translation from the east to the west). I think we all put our own personal spin on the things we teach based on what we feel is effective or justify and adapt for what we do not understand. I have no doubt now that those that came before me did the same. Just goes to show that we are all human. Having said that I will also say that there are some applications that have been changed and are more effective because of the changes. So it really goes both ways. The really cool thing is that in many cases we kept the "passed down" version and also incorporated the original (Quan Fa) version if they were both effective. More or less adding more tools to our tool chest so to speak.

What you are describing Sensei8 is a hypocrite. Those that teach something but do not believe its worth teaching either needs to find another art that they can believe in or they just shouldn't be teaching at all. IMHO this is also ignorance or arrogance.

I didn't realize I came off so harshly. I apologize. I can tend to be matter of fact and fairly outspoken. It sounds like you took the advice in the spirit is was intended though. Nothing wrong with being a perfectionist. However you must also be a realist. No "master" of any art or trade got there over night. Keep your goals high but keep your feet on the ground. You'll get there. In time all things are possible. Keep training.

Holy cow 2000? does a manual equate a book or a small print out? I have several hundred books but not two thousand (at least not yet) so i go by the adage that if your not reading your not learning. i will agree with others that pictures of technique is somewhat useless Youtube now would be better. but its not the pictures or techniques that matter its the idea's that you gain that make a difference. the books you read and the people you meet have the greatest impact on your personal journey. there was a time when i would go to the book store and i remember looking at the karate books and thinking to myself that there was nothing there anymore to learn from. i was wrong. the problem was i was looking at the wrong books! then i started reading psychology, biomechanics, biology, neuroscience, histories greatest military strategy books the topics go on and on and on. the key is do not limit yourself to the "sports" section of the local book store. martial arts books for the most part are very first grade. at some point you have to graduate to a university level. it will make a huge difference in your understanding of your art. Over! I have been collecting books, manuals and references since I first started. We used to have a little shop in the city that imported oriental goods. One of the main items was martial arts manuals and books from various countries. Even though I had no idea what they said I bought a few every month when I got my allowance for doing chores. Keep in mind I only received around fifty cents to a dollar a week so you can imagine how cheap (or expensive depending on you perspective) those items were. Some are very old. Could be originals but I've never looked them up since I have no idea what the cover says to research them. Once it closed I started ordering books and going to the book stores. I could afford far less due to the prices of books but was able to amass a small library. The bug stuck with me into my adult life and any chance I got to get my hands on research material I would buy it. When over seas I bought all that I could afford. I'm a major martial arts junky to say the least. My wife would love to see them disappear in a blaze but even to this day I still look through them and use them to research. They have actually been invaluable as some of them can not be gotten anymore and actually show a lot of postures and applications that are present in our Kata. I can not read a majority of them as they are from many countries around the world (India, China, Japan, Greece, Italy, Spain, France, Burma, Thailand to name a few) but I think most MA'ists with a decade or so can get the meaning by pictures alone. I have had a few translated over the years with mixed results in helping me research. I guess that makes me a book worm or a major nerd. I'll let you all decide but I love my collection and wouldn't trade it for all of the youtube videos in the world.

Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the info.

I think it's relevance boils down to how one learns. Some can watch a video and pick up techniques quickly and others need to see it in still pictures to fully understand and still others need one on one interaction. I think it really depends on the individual. I have roughly 2000+ manuals that for me are invaluable as you can not easily find their contents online or not at all. Having something tangible that you can pull out when you need it without doing a google search is priceless, at least to me. In the realm of research I also find that older manuals and books are a valuable asset. If performing a search online you will find somethings you need and a whole lot of useless information. Don't get me wrong, I find being able to find a video at a click of the mouse very valuable but for me it does not replace the books just adds to them. Just my 2 cents.

The thing to remember is you'll get there. All too often students get upset because they are not meeting goals that they came up with on their own. These goals are good but if you do not achieve a goal (that is not based on fact or any amount of experience) it should not be the end of the world. Setting lofty goals are good in that you strive harder to meet them and will in fact reach them faster than if you did not set the goal in the first place. This is often overlooked because it's not readily apparent to the student. Judge yourself on the small successes as these are the way you know your improving. Just because you can not perform a perfect side kick or back kick or whatever doesn't mean you have not improved nor that your not taking steps down the path. Measure success on the individual steps not on the end of the path. Hint - you'll never get there. Not if your serious about mastery of the art. It's not possible as there is always something more to learn and something more to improve. Bottom line it's about personal perfection. We are not capable of perfection so we can only strive to be. As I said - life long journey. Just enjoy the journey and don't get hung up on the set backs. It happens to the best of us.

What if you're not young? I've been giving a lot of thought to trying this out but have a few ailments that might pose an issue. I have had surgery for a torn ACL that has not healed to 100% yet, Cubital tunnel syndrome (right arm), and a worn out rotator cuff 9told I'll need surgery - left shoulder). These obviously do not stop me from training or fighting but the ground game is a whole different arena in that your arms and legs are actively manipulated and a lot of stress is put on them during training. Is this something you would take up in your 50's or 60's? What about with a few aliments? I'm not unaccustomed to pain nor do I make it a habit of turning away from a challenge but the older I get the longer it takes me to recuperate. I'd hate to join today and need surgery in a month (trying to hold off as long as possible so I don't have a lengthy down time from training). So this is definitely a concern I have. What's you thoughts/advice?

First things first - we are all human and as such we will fail. IMHO you are not giving yourself a break. You have to realize that this is a life long journey and the knowledge of the heavens is not going to magically appear nor is the skills earned over decades going to be bestowed upon you in your first few months/years. It's a life long journey. Cut yourself some slack and learn to enjoy your triumphs and failures. If you never have any hiccups you'll never know what your doing right and what your doing wrong. Embrace these bumps in the road as a chance to improve. Not getting one thing down in some mystical time limit is impractical. Your body and mind are both growing while your training. Sometimes the body lags behind and sometimes its the other way. This is totally natural and in time you'll get it and wonder why you worried about it. This is your journey and as such you should enjoy not only the successes but also the failures. Through failures we learn what not to do. This is sometimes more valuable than just natural ability. To understand the whats, hows and whys makes you better all the way around. Enjoy each day and what it brings no matter good or bad because it's all good if your learning about yourself and improving based on that knowledge. Just remember it never comes all at once. As with anything worth doing it takes time to do things the right way. A master of any trade did not become that way over night. It's called practice, practice and more practice. Eventually you'll get there and when you do it will be all that much sweeter because you had to work for it. Enjoy the journey.