MatsuShinshii

That is exactly what I am worried about. The problem is there is a 50/50 stalemate between those that feel we need to be more modern and those that want to maintain what we feel is the core essence of our teachings.

Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the kind words.

So I guess I'll get right to the issue first... our new president has put forth for a vote to allow instructors to start taking on children. I said allow but based on his language and demeanor I think this would become a requirement. I'll put it this way; It was more of a statement than a suggestion. I know most here will say "whats the problem" and I understand the view point. I was training at the age of 10 in a different art and this sparked my life long passion for the arts. So in one respect I get where you would be coming from. On the other hand my Shinshii always had a rule that no one under the age of 16 would be accepted to train. This over time began to make sense and I saw the benefits of this decision. And, well, it's our tradition. Now to the main point - I sit on the board of instructors, there are 8 of us, and have a deciding vote. Since Shinshii retired the board has been pulling more and more away from the traditional aspects of the art and leaning towards more modern methods. This is for a few reasons but the biggest reason is the size of our organization. We are a little over 500 in total and our president and a good majority of our board members feel that it's Shinshii's traditions/rules that are the reason for this. A few examples of more modern methods would be the incorporation of more than three colored belts for the Mudansha grades. Some felt that this would keep students interested and give them something to look forward too. They have also put more emphasis on self defense training. I don't mean that we do not teach self defense, we do in ever class, I mean creating a stand alone self defense class. Since we train and teach self defense in everything we do I do not see the purpose of this. I really did not care one way or the other when it came to adding belts. When I started we had white, brown and black. My Shinshii had white and black. They incorporated green when I was a Shodan and now they want to add yellow, orange, blue and purple. The concept of Shodan-Ho (I hope I spelled this correctly) was also brought up. Not sure what color this would be or if it would just be another step of brown. It is my understanding this is a purely Japanese concept which we are not a Japanese art so I was against this. I am usually very stanch in my views and very much unyielding. However since I have joined KF I have read many other points of view that have me questioning my steadfastness. The vote is pretty much a even split 50/50 at this point. About half of us want to maintain Shinshii's traditions and half want to modernize. I feel that by moving more to the modern ideals of training today we will loose what makes our art what it is. On the other hand I understand the drawl of allowing children to join to increase numbers. A lot of students would bring their kids to class immediately if they could. My worry is how far it could go. I know some of my views are not aligned with some on KF as I am very much old fashioned and very traditional in terms of my upbringing in the arts. I do not agree with the thought of child black belts and worry that this is the direction we would head in based on some of the things that have been brought up for a vote in the past. So to give you my point of view and a little more insight: I personally feel that once children are allowed to join we will then be contending with the fast food society of "my boy has been training long enough and should be tested, give him a new belt or I'll take him else where". I feel that our president is taking us down the road of mandatory numbers of students as he has suggested the possibility of discounts for schools that have "x" students. This does not effect me as much as it will others in our association as I currently have more Mudansha training under me either directly or under one of my students than any other dojo. However if these requirements are enacted as a must rather than an option, I fear that this will cause an environment that caters to the whims of parents and students alike and pull the power away from the instructors to choose their students. I have always chosen my students and have told those I deemed not worthy to find another teacher. I am too old to care about whether they enact this as there is little they can do to force me one way or the other. My school is not leased by the association nor am I getting discounts to help pay rent because I own my school. However the younger instructors are not in my position and this would effect them and they could be pressured to do whatever the association wants them to do or risk loosing their schools. So what do you think? Please give me your opinion. I need to see other opinions besides my own and those that think like me and also besides those on the board that are pushing alternate agenda's. I think if I get other points of view it may help me to make this decision. We vote at the end of the month and this could either be a great thing that builds our numbers or a really bad thing that turns us into just another McDojo with 5 year old's running around with a black colored belt around their waste's and thinking they are actually Yudansha. I would never subscribe to this way of thinking and would never grade someone under the age of 18 to Shodan! To be honest unless one had prior training in our art (which has happened since not all in our lineage line subscribe to Shinshii's traditions) this is an impossibility as this would mean they reached this level in two years. The quickest anyone has reached the grade of Shodan in our art was 4 years. Earned not given. So to be more accurate it would be more like 20 or 21 years of age. This brings up another fear. We have always subscribed to the mantra "earned not given". If pressure is imposed to bolster numbers it would be possible that instructors, feeling the pressure to boost numbers, could potentially promote with out merit so that little Johnny shows his friends his shinny new belt to entice them to join as well. I know, I'll old and very old fashioned. So you do not have to say it, I already know and it's already been said a million times before now.

Congrats Bushido_man96! I am sure it is well deserved.

I know I can go to Google and find out what Pell training is but I would rather learn it from someone that understands it from a practicing point of view. Could you explain what you mean by pell work and how it can be incorporated into weapons and empty hand so all of us can learn, understand it and possibly incorporate it into our training? Thanks in advance.

Solid points. I agree.

I think I pulled this post off track by concentrating on the weapon used. Let me clarify my thoughts; If a person trains in the practice of a combative method and uses a (any) weapon (stick, steel, or skin and bone) and endeavors to master it for the purposes of self preservation/self defense/ combat, he would be considered a martial artist. If said weapon whether empty hand or an extension of the hand is trained in with the intent of mastery to protect ones self or for the use in a combative method, it would be considered a martial arts weapon. I was using the analogy of a hair pin to illustrate that any weapon or the practice of said weapon could be considered a martial art. A martial artist in generic terms would be anyone that trains there body for combat,conflict/war. We all know it encompasses more than that and this is an over simplification but at the root of the word martial you have war. So in terms of a weapon if it is practiced for martial applications and a curriculum or training method is established for said weapon for the purposes of combat, then yes it would in general terms be considered a martial art. Again I point back to the cane. I doubt anyone, if asked before the american cane system was invented, would have considered a cane to be a martial arts weapon. On the other hand just because a MA'ist uses a particular weapon to defend themselves does not mean that that weapon or the use there of meets the guidelines to be a MA weapon. Any weapon (pencil, paper clip, scissors, etc.) in the hands of a trained MA'ist is effective but that does not mean that one would develop a training system to teach others to utilize it nor does it mean that it would be effective in combat under different circumstances. What is a MA what makes a MA'ist? I think it boils down to training, commitment and whether it's a life style or a one time hobby or interest. Someone that learns how to "fight" from watching Kung Fu theater and acts out what they saw is not in my opinion a martial artist. A weapon (any) that is picked up by a layman (un-trained) does not mean that it will be effective even though it is classified as a MA weapon, nor does it mean that the layman is a MA'ist because he is using a weapon that is classified as a MA's weapon. A martial artist is someone that has spent his/her life studying the arts of war. A martial art is a tradition of combat training. They are practiced for the means of self defense, to strengthen ones self physically, mentally and spiritually. It is also a means of self mastery. Obviously this does not encompass what it means to all martial artists. But on the surface, does a decent job of defining the core. So to further clarify... anyone that trains in a system for combative practices would in generic terms be considered a martial artist. In terms of weapons - any weapon that is a system for combative practices would meet the criteria of a martial arts weapon. In terms of a martial art - any codified system for the means of practicing war/combat in which the participant learns the practices of self defense/combat would be constituted as a martial art. There is obviously more to being a martial artist and a lot more for what constitutes the criteria for being a martial art or a MA weapon than I have time to fit into this post.

I agree that you know in advance of promoting a student but this was not typical for Shinshii. I have been asked several times to test throughout the years for different grades/licenses and Shinshii always respected his students decision if they felt they were not ready and would not force the test nor automatically promote them. I have been a Rokudan for 10 years and have had my Renshi License for over 15 years. If he was going to force the issue he most likely would have a few years back. He never said anything when I told him that I wanted to wait until I was ready to test due to my knee. He never gave any indication that he had already promoted me. He is typically forth coming and very direct. He is definitely not good at keeping a secret, or I guess he was considering no one knew about this. Crafty old guy. After talking with our president he seemed to think that Shinshii knew he was retiring and decided to not wait as he would be retired before I was able to test and that he wanted this to come from him. If this was his mind set at the time he was right. I am only about 95% and have not quite regained all of the power or speed in that leg. If he waited until I felt I was ready he would have been 3.5 yrs too late.

Occam welcome. I normally would not offer this but after reading your post you seem very mature. I do not take on students under the age of 16 so you do not have to worry about classes structured for children. I live in Verona, KY about an hour away from you. Hopefully your Tai Chi classes work out but if they don't and are looking for a traditional art and do not mind the drive, pm (private message) me. I teach Matsumura Shorin Ryu Karate Jutsu and Kobudo. It's very traditional and I teach every Saturday (4 hours) at my house since some of my students do not have time or do not want to travel to the Dojo. Some live 40 minutes from me and an hour and a half from where my Dojo is located.

Thank you Sensei8. I appreciate the explanation.

I would submit that Buki-Gwa (kobudo) is a martial art and most would agree. What then would be the difference between a sai and a bayonet? Martial arts encompasses anything in which one can utilize to protect/damage/kill another in respects to warfare/combat. It is the art of combat and as such anything that is utilized and is practiced with the intent of utilizing said instrument (hand, foot, elbow, knee, sword, kama, sai, eku, knife, bayonet, bow/yumi, or just about anything that can be used as a weapon) would meet the martial arts criteria. Lets not forget the first form of combative means was a rock and a stick. This may sound funny but what then is a Rokushaku Bo, Yari, Tuifa, or any other weapon made from wood. Goliath was killed with a rock. The original Suruchin was two stones connected by rope. Is this not a martial art if practiced to defend oneself or to be used in combat? I submit that a pencil in the hands of a martial artist is just as deadly as a knife in the hands of a layman. If it were practiced and techniques developed why then would it or anything else practiced not be included as a martial art. Who ever thought a cane could become a martial art unto itself. But... it is in the hands of a martial artist. Yes a crossbow or the practice there of would be a MA. Crossbows were utilized by most countries for battle. It was practiced as much as any other weapon and thus one could make the argument that it is a martial art unto itself. Kusanku (Kata) was practiced with hair pins. Most of the Pechin class (more or less Samurai for those that do not know what this is) wore hair pins to keep their top knot in place and it was a sign of upper class. They practiced this because weapons could not be carried in certain places or under certain conditions. The hair pins were worn with distinction and thus always available. Funny how something so insignificant can be turned into a weapon and the practice of said item can be considered a MA.

See, I don't think it is any less important, but there is a larger margin for error. You can be hit by a glancing blow from a fist, foot, knee or elbow, possible even a bo, and still be generally ok. A glancing blow from a longsword is not gonna have the same effect as a clean cut, but you will NOT be ok. I can't really agree entirely with this, because we manage to teach it all the time. The secret is in understanding range finders during the fight. Now, this MUST be refined by practice, but it also should be taught in the first place. A good example of what I mean is the concept of the forte, metza, and foible in italian fencing. A key component of ranging and safety is knowing that when your forte is above and against your opponents foible, it is safe to attack and you are likely in range. The various "guards" of swordsmanship are designed around the idea of disguising this range and safety from your opponent while allowing you to, hopefully, recognize it in your own situation. Once again, this MUST be refined through long practice, but it can be taught. I understand your point of view and I think we are saying the same thing. Yes you must explain to the student how to read distance but what I was referring to is feel. You can not teach a student to judge distance, they must develop the feel on their own. It doesn't matter how many times you show them distance, it will not sink in until they put this into practice and get the feel based on the weapon utilized by the opponent. Of course understanding the attacking techniques and capabilities of the weapon also go into this. Basically one must learn to use the weapon both as offensive and defensive to develop the feel for distance. Just because the weapon is exactly 42" and the opponents arms are 28", does not mean the safety zone is 70" from the opponent. This can only be learned through experience and practice. You can show the student distances but until they put this into practice and begin to understand what that actually means and how ranges constantly change, and until they are able to adapt as the ranges change they will not get it no matter how much they are shown. This has been my experience at least. It's something that just happens without thinking about it. The body responds without thought. We call this Mushin (no mind). And again this IMHO can not be taught. If it could every student would be an expert without the need to learn through hard knocks. If this can be taught without the student developing the feel, that is by showing/telling the student, they can face down an opponent without having developed their own feel for ranges, fluctuations in range, then please share the secret. I have been in the empty hand arts for 30+ years and the weapon arts for 30 yrs and it took me most of that to develop these skills. No one was ever able to teach this to me, it was developed through thousands of hours of training. To address your sword comment above, I have been studying the art of the sword (albeit not the same type of sword in your reference above) for many years and distance is typically measured in hairs. There are only three outcomes and two are not good for you. Waiting until the right second to strike and moving just enough to not be struck (if your lucky) can only be learned through doing. This takes literally years to get proficient at and possibly a life time to gain enough mastery to actually walk away from a real altercation. I can not, no will not say that I can come even a little bit close to claiming I am at this level. However and again this is developed through years of doing and developing the feel for not only the opponents weapon, your weapon, the range/distancing, but also understanding what can be done within a given range both offensive and defensive. Again I think we are saying the same thing but if not please explain to me how one teaches a student to develop this by just showing/telling. I personally do not see this as a viable method. Just my personal opinion.

Occam, My suggestion would be to find a school or teacher before you and your friend start going to town on each other. If you have a Shinai it will be made from four pieces of bamboo and will flex, to some degree, when struck against a surface. Make sure you are not using Bokken (wooden sword) as it will not flex and a jacket will not protect you. In fact you may just get that broken bone. All the safety equipment in the world will not replace proper training. I get goofing around but believe it or not, the first time you get hit hard with a Shinai you will know it and I forgot to mention, they pinch and not just a small pinch. You'll know it and feel it for days. I would also look into proper Kendogu gear.

Distance is incorporated into all training both with and without weapons. I do not feel it is any less important when not wielding a weapon. Ranges are pretty much set based upon the weapon (hand, foot, elbow, knee, sai, nunchacku, eku, rokushaku, yari, etc.). Knowing the safety range and the engagement range of a given weapon is something that can only be learned through constant practice to build the depth and range perception one needs in a combative altercation with or without weapons. Having said this, it is taught in every lesson and is an important lesson that must be learned. However, and again, I do not feel that anyone can teach you per-say proper distances. This again has to be learned through doing. One must also learn what safety range means. Most would assume this means outside of range when in fact this can also mean being at a range that the weapon can not be effectively utilized. You can not effectively swing a Bo if the opponent is right next to you. This takes away it's effectiveness and allows someone with say, nichogama, to capitalize due to the fact that the weapon is effective at close range.

You address a few reasons you feel like you need to leave your current Dojo. However I can not tell you if they are good reasons or bad. You point out that all of your friends have left to join another Dojo. This sounds to me like you want to join your friends. I can understand this but you also need to realize that friends go their separate ways. It sounds like your Sensei has spent a lot of time training you and it seems that you like your Sensei. You state that you can not train or do not feel like you get the same training with your older peers. I take it that these older peers are lower grades? I can tell you that up until the age of 45 I could hang (Speed, power, mobility, flexibility) with anyone of my students. Age has slowed me but knowledge and skill take it's place. Ask your Sensei to practice Kumite with you. I'm sure you will find that this will challenge you more so than your peers. Make sure you are leaving for the right reasons. Ask yourself if you will get better training in the long run and learn more from your current Sensei or if you will benefit from this other Sensei. Ask yourself if the allure of joining your friends out weighs your years with your current Sensei and his knowledge base, and your future in the art. What if your friends decide to leave this new school and your in the same position again. My point is you have to do what is right for you, because in the end it's your journey and no one else can take that journey for you. Good luck and give it some thought before you leap.

Thank you for your explanation. I understand where you are coming from and respect your point of view.

Yes. The more one trains the better one becomes.

I had an interesting phone call last Friday night from our board president. He informed me that I would be receiving a Nanadan grade certificate and Kyoshi teaching license in the mail and to be looking for them. This immediately brought to question how, as I had not tested for this rank or license, and was going to argue the point but... He explained that he had finally gotten around to going through Shinshii's files in an attempt to clean and organize and found both of these back dated, signed and stamped by Shinshii from two and a half years ago. He went to the register and found that it had been filled out and stamped as well and the copy was filed. [side Bar - a little back ground; our Shinshii retired two years back and turned over the association to myself and a few other senior instructors and created a board of instructors. Why he did not name a successor is for another post and is quite a long story. Anyway I ended up blowing out my knee a few months before I was scheduled to test. Shinshii wanted to just promote me based on the fact that I had turned down a previous invitation to test but I told him that I would wait until I healed and would test then. Obviously I never got the chance but it turns out it was going to be a forgone conclusion anyway.] Knowing that I would possibly question this and not accept it he put it to a vote with the other board members and explained that the board voted unanimously to give me the post-dated promotion and license. I sit on the board but there need only be a 70% vote to pass anything. He said that it made sense since it was already in the register and the copy had been filed, and finished by stating "it's already been done". I got off the phone and realized that this would be the last grading and license that I would be issued from by my teacher. I decided to accept the grade and license (not like there was really a choice). [side Bar - I did not figure on testing until the end of the year as I am still not 100% and thought I would need this time to get back to where I needed to be to test. I guess Shinshii got his way and had the last word in the end.] I have never really put much weight in grades. I have never been one to race to the next grade or even test if I felt that I was not ready. In fact I have turned down multiple invitations to test because I did not feel ready. Having said this I find myself both excited and a bit depressed at the same time. I am really excited to receive these as they are signed and stamped by my teacher but I also feel a sense of loss in realizing that these are the last grades/licenses I will ever receive from him. I count myself luck to have trained under him as long as I have and for that I am grateful. I know that a tested grading is worth more than one given, but I have to say that this grading mean more to me than the rest because of the fact that it was/is the last time I will receive a grading from him. I can truly say I am honored by this. It also means I have been a Nanadan for the last two and a half years.

Welcome goju1971. I joined for the same reason and have been very please. I think you will like it here. Good people and a lot of knowledge.

Welcome xwingday.

Welcome back.

LeighSimmsMA, Excellent points. I tend to agree with you on most of your arguments. Thank you for sharing this with us.

Sensei8, I believe you have stumped me as I have never heard the term Dento Bunkai. It may be a difference of terminology (Japanese to Hogan) but would you be so kind as to explain to me the definition of this type of Bunkai? I understand it is a stage, I just do not understand what it represents. Although we do not use this terminology I know the terminology for Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, and Henka Bunkai, but have never even heard the term Dento. Hate to show my ignorance but this one has stumped me and could not find anything on Google search to help enlighten me. The closest thing I got to a description is that Den means traditional. Admittely I haven't heard of Dento, Kakushi & Henka Bunkai either. However from a quick google search and landing on Iain Abernethy's website this is what I found which was posted in response to a similar question you just asked and I am qouting it exactly as what it said by a person called Holger: If you would like to check where i got it: https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/different-terms-used-bunkai Also another good link that might help: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=wrNAfgmdcRkC&pg=PT200&lpg=PT200&dq=Dento+Bunkai&source=bl&ots=ye46UVI13U&sig=9TJ-UZ6lzBTtUGYn5DAE4z0nPk8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB-PKK9pXRAhWDU7wKHXfVDJ8Q6AEIPzAG#v=onepage&q=Dento%20Bunkai&f=false Thank you Nidan Melbourne. We do not use any of these terms but I have heard all of them used in other schools I have studied in except Dento. I appreciate the help.

Since our association went through a bit of a self destruction I have know idea what the exact number of inactive Yudansha and Kodansha there are, however I can tell you how how many active we presently have; Inactive/Deceased/Retired Kodansha Judan - 2 (died in 1982 and 2007) Kudan - 1 (Retired in 2015) Hachidan - 1 (died in 1994) Active Kodansha Hachidan - 1 Nanadan - 2 (Me) Yudansha Godan - 8 Yondan - 13 Sandan - 18 Nidan - 15 Shodan - 48 Mudansha Ikkyu - 44 Nikyu - 64 Sankyu - 37 Yonkyu - 14 Gokyu - 72 Rokkyu - 63 Shechikyu - 75 Hachikyu - 81 Our registry is fairly old school as we still use a rank registration book, a master and copy certificate program. However our associations ranks are listed in our associations yearly news letter, which is where I pulled this information from.

Permission to use this quote, Sensei8? I love this quote as it hits right to the point. We all started as beginners. Today's fast food mentality is so eager to get the next grade that they sometimes fail to appreciate what was taught in the grade they are in. I have a friend that is almost 20 years younger than me that will be testing for his Rokudan. He is in a different art but was a former student of mine and still trains with me on occasion. He asked me if this makes me uncomfortable that we will be the same grade and wonders why it doesn't bother me that I am not farther up the belt food chain so to speak. Maybe it's the way I think but I feel I am exactly where I am supposed to be in my life and in my grade. I have been offered Nanadan three times in the last 7 years and can't imagine why I would accept it as I am not in my own mind ready for it. Personally I can die a Rokudan and be happy as a clown with what I have accomplished. For that matter they could bust me down to Hachikyu and it wouldn't make me loose an ounce of sleep. The belt does not define us. This is what I think students miss today. I would rather move to Shechikyu as the best Hachikyu with nothing left to learn and nothing left to perfect than to be given the rank before I am truly ready. If the foundation is strong the Shodan will be strong. If it is weak the Shodan means little as it is weak as well. The better the white belt is the better the black belt will be.