MatsuShinshii

Congrats Twistkick

In my experience for typical rates around here $100 is a starting amount for large schools and a medium amount for smaller schools. If you can operate at $100 a month then you will probably pull in enough students to keep the doors open. Most are between $75 and $145 a month. Just be mindful of your base income and cost of living for your area. Look up typical rates for schools in your area and look at what your rent is and charge accordingly. Make sure you look at schools that have been in business for more than a few years. They will give you a better representation of the typical costs.

strangepair03, I have made the trip many times. I think you will enjoy your time there. Sounds like you have made prior arrangements to train. If you did not already know this, make sure you bring a gift the first time you meet your Shinshii, even if you have previously trained and are returning it is customary to present him with a gift. Good luck and have fun.

After going back and reading quite a few of your posts I now understand your feelings towards this man. I have to say you are justified in your position. I must say though that if this man has the knowledge that you say he does and he were to be selected as the Hombu CI, without the Judan grading and Soke position, I actually see this as a great benefit to your organization. Since it seems that neither you nor your Kancho has the time, this seems like a very logical fit. My question would be, are you going to have to deal with him in that capacity and would this effect you personally? Based on your comments, besides giving him a glass of water, it sounds like you wouldn't use that same glass of water to put him out if he was on fire. Not that I blame you based on your previous posts.

Since it seems we are doing quotes here are two that stuck with me; "Never stop being a student. No matter how skilled or knowledgeable one may be there is always more to learn, maintain a beginners mind" and "never be to full of yourself to think that you have nothing to learn from those you teach, a beginner does not have preconceived notions and often see's what your clouded mind can not" However there is one quote that has always stuck with me, but was not from Shinshii (from who I have no idea); "The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but rather the one who moves on in spite of failure"

To the bold above; I totally agree.

This is a natural process as others have stated. At some point we stop concentrating on what others are teaching and start listening to what our body is trying to teach us. We start analyzing every movement and concentrating on small details. If you think about it, it really makes sense. We strive for perfection of oneself. At some point in your training the body has been trained, muscle memory set and the fine details need to be focused on. This is a good thing. Looking good is wonderful if your in a movie but your brain is telling you there is something not quite right. Focus on these issues and you will become a better Karateka by correcting them. As you mature in the art you also mature as a person and begin to realize your limitations and strengths. You hone in on those little imperfections that no one including your Sensei can see and they become mountainous to you until corrected. This is self awareness. This is a good thing. As to whether to test or not? This is something that no one here at KF can tell you. You and you alone must decide what is right for you. If you feel that you are ready and deserving of the grade then test. If you do not feel ready then respectfully talk to your Sensei and explain that you are not ready and do not test. Either way this is your journey. However as you stated your Sensei see things you do not and knows your level of progress. I would personally have a heart to heart with your Sensei and see what she thinks about this. Be honest in your self assessment and tell her what you have been feeling. Get feed back and then make a decision. Good luck. What ever decision you make will be the right one for you.

Sensei8, I understand your/your organization's position against this man and it sounds like it is more than warranted. To be clear... within SKKA he has been striped of Sokeship and of his Judan. I get this and understand this completely. However, being of a traditional old school back ground I have to ask, How is it that he has no claim to SKKA? If you started over under a new name and would not recognize him as your Soke, I can totally understand this. My Shinshii started his own organization and re-named it to avoid legal issues. However if Soke named it and passed it down to Dai-Soke and he passed it down to San Dai-Soke, then isn't the name proprietary to him? Does he not have all rights to the name and it's branding (Patches, structure, etc)? I mean no disrespect by asking this but coming from my back ground it is inconceivable how an organization can outlaw it's Soke and take the name and branding away from him, much less take away his Sokeship. So I guess this leads to another question; If he started teaching and building up his own organization as Soke and a Judan, can he use the SKKA name and it's branding since Dai-Soke passed it directly to him? I know I'm wearing you out but I must ask one last question. You said only one Menkyo Kaiden was awarded and that was directly to your Soke. This puzzled me until I really thought about it. But to confirm my thoughts I must ask; did your Soke start learning another art and was the total transmission given to him, thus allowing him to form his own art? Why was a Menkyo Kaiden never passed on to Dai-Soke as this is tradition to pass on successorship to the next in line? This is not completely out of the norm but is in no way typical. However Hohan Soken never passed a Menkyo Kaiden down so I know this happens. However the Japanese government, as I understand it, named Kise the successor after Hohan Shinshii died. Did the Regents and Hierarchy name Dai-Soke the successor without the means of a Menkyo-Kaiden? Sorry for all of the questions but I am truly interested in how these things came about. It is definitely not something I have experienced nor have heard of. Truly a unique scenario.

JR 137 - this was the year before I was born but as a Marine I absolutely agree with you. Some things are unforgivable.

Wow! And I thought we had a lot of politics in our organization! I am a little fuzzy on the facts so if you would be kind enough to clarify a few things... In reading the posts I am not 100% clear on how your San Dai-Soke was promoted to that position. Did he receive a Menkyo Kaiden from his father? Who promoted him to the grade of Judan? I also saw that he was originally a Nanadan and only had a Kyoshi license which didn't seem to change after he was appointed Soke and graded to Judan. That seems very strange to me to be awarded Judan but not receive a Hanshi license. I know of one Soke that maintained his grading of Hachidan and continued to study under his then instructor, his father passed, and went through his grading's as any other would. Of course his teaching licenses were done in the same fashion. But to me it seems highly unusual to receive the grading of Judan, the position of Soke and to have a Kyoshi license. How exactly did the Hierarchy expel him from his organization? I get your bylaws had rulings for an absence but this confuses me as my Shinshii would only have maybe one or two phone conversations with his Shinshii and only visit him at the Hombu in Okinawa maybe once a year. The other item I don't get is what was the issue with moving the Hombu to Okinawa and was he doing away with the USA schools completely? In my mind, moving the Hombu to Okinawa is consistent with most Okinawan arts and having a head quarters in other countries that oversee the schools in that country is consistent as well. I would think that if he was deemed the successor of the art by the last Soke he would be able to do with it as he wished. I would think he would maintain the heirarchy in the USA and make the Hombu the headquarters. I would also think that all positions would be maintained at least for the US. But to be honest I would think he would maintain most if not all of the hierarchy within the organization, unless there are those in Okinawa that out rank and have higher positions/titles/licenses than those here in the US. Just doesn't make sense for him to make such an unexpected move without fully thinking through it and having a plan in place as to not loose his entire US student body. I am also fuzzy on how his position and grade were removed. It has always been my understanding that once a grade, title, license is awarded/granted, especially by the past Soke, it can not be removed except by the Soke. How exactly does one go about striping someone from his heritage and lineage? How does one go about taking away any rights to his own organizations name? I could see starting a separate organization as this is what my Shinshii did when his passed away. He did not get along with the son so he started his own. How many students/instructors are there in Okinawa? Is the totality of the student body here in the US? Did your first Soke have his Hombu in Okinawa and if so how did it get moved to the US? Was it due to the number of high ranking instructors here as apposed to Okinawa and else where? I am just very confused as to why Dai-Soke would want his son to move the Hombu if he did not move it when he had control. It really doesn't compute why he would want to move it if there is not a large presence on Okinawa. It's not like your going to move there and open up shop among the plethora of other arts and expect to build fast enough to get to current numbers or even half of those numbers. Sounds to me he romanced about having a Hombu in Okinawa himself. I would think he moved over there and found that it was not going to be that cut and dry. I am sure you may have other posts that outline some of my questions but as I said I am not crystal clear as to all of the hows and why's. P.S. I do not envy your position. This is in part why I couldn't wait to step down as president of our board. If I could I would walk away from all politics all together and just teach and study the art. Oh the good old days of just enjoying the art.

Thank you sir.

Kata does not teach kickboxing--if it did, it would look much more like you are thinking, I suspect. Instead, kata teaches something more akin to clinchwork. That is, it teaches close-range fighting techniques, many of which involve limb control, grabbing and striking, and takedowns of various sorts. Of course, the kata are cleaned up versions of these fighting methods, either to build proper structure or just to look nicer. As JackD mentions, the stances you see are much more transitional than they appear in the kata. If you want to see the stances of kata in competitive fighting, look to the clinchwork of Muay Thai, the cagework of MMA, and the standing components of arts like judo and sumo. They don't stand idly by in a proper front stance, or horse stance, or cat stance, but they absolutely use them where appropriate for structure, control, and application of technique. You'll also notice a good number of the arm movements of kata, as well, just by the very nature of fighting at that range. Obviously, it isn't 100% crossover, because karate's approach is not identical to any one of those arts, but the similarities are clear, if you know what to look for. Solid post Wastelander.

LostAtKarate, It sounds to me that your roles have switched. It sounds like he spent a lot of time encouraging you and you spent a lot of time discouraging him in the beginning. Now it seems that you are finally ready and he has all but given up. Like others have said I would recommend you sitting down with your Sensei and expressing your feelings and telling him that you have been making an effort and that you now feel ready. That does not mean that the outcome will go your way but you will have an answer and can make a decision based on that answer. I am not quite sure of the time line but it sounds like this went on for quite some time. In my opinion he probably gave up. Unlike your Sensei if they show me that I am wasting my time I show them the door. You have to realize that instructors love the art as much if not more that their students but their time is just as valuable as yours is. Instructors, at least in my case, are looking for those that we can pass the art onto. With the limited amount of time we have with students, it is human nature to spend your time with those wanting to learn. The relationship between teacher and student is a two way street. If a student does not show that they want to learn or does not put in the effort this is for all intensive purposes a slap in the teachers face. If an instructor takes the time and puts in the effort to teach the student, they expect the student to reciprocate his efforts by making an effort to learn and put in the same hard work that the instructor is. Based on your post I can't say I blame the instructor. If he has other students that are putting forth the effort he most likely turned his efforts to them. The only way to repair this relationship is to sit down with him and speak from the heart. However realize that actions speak louder than words. Make an effort to show him that you are putting forth the effort. Since he has been trying to get you to help him teach, take it upon yourself to help your fellow students. Make yourself available and continue to ask if there is anything that you can help him with. Over time he will see the change and might start to trust you again. Remember that trust is easily broken. If he feels that he spent a lot of time and effort into getting you to where you are at but feels like it was not appreciated the trust is no longer there. Prove to him you are worthy of his trust. Give 100% every minute of class and show him that you appreciate what he has done for you. Often times, especially with old school teachers, the best way to say you appreciate your instructors efforts is to put in the hard work. Seeing our students skills, knowledge and maturity advance makes the effort worth it. So if you talk with him and tell him your are ready to start stepping up, do it. If you do, I think you will see a change in his personality and the way he interacts with you. However, I'll give you a word of caution... if you truly are at the cross roads and ready to make a change, don't tell him you are and then not put in the time and effort. Show him every day and from the minute you enter the Dojo to the minute you leave the Dojo. Anything less than 100% effort and you will destroy his trust in you forever. Keep us posted on your progress and good luck. It sounds like you are being honest with yourself and are ready to step up. I really hope you do and that you repair your friendship with you Sensei.

I get where you are heading. However and again a child does not, no can not in my mind exhibit my ideal of what a Shodan is and never will. I don't have a problem with other instructors promoting kids if they feel this is right for them and their organization. It's not right for mine. There is a maturity level needed for the grade and I would never teach a child what I teach adults. I'm sorry if you can't convince me as I realize you believe in this practice and are trying to get your point across but for me it will never happen. And as JR 137 pointed out, it's hard to look up to a kid as the ideal of what Yudansha represents. Again old school thinking for an old dog I guess but somethings, especially the core beliefs will never change. I forgot to mention one other important reason why a child would never measure up to the grade. There is a huge difference between a kid and an adult. Maturity as I mentioned above is one thing but their mentality and physiology is very different as well. A 14 yr old has not even grown into their bodies. They have not fully developed in all aspects. I get that there are young BB's running around thinking that they are real Shodan's. But they are not. There is, as I have said before, more to being a Yudansha than just learning the curriculum and wearing a black piece of cloth around your waste. If your 14 years old and wear a black belt, great! But in my mind it's just a black belt worth as much as the one your can buy at Wal-mart. You are not a Yudnasha. This might not be a popular point of view and maybe it's a little harsh but to be quite blunt, it sickens me to see 10 to 16 year old children that think they are true Yudansha. If they think they are, send them my way and I'll put them up against my Yonkyu's and Sankyu's. I don't think they will feel like real Yudnasha for long. There is no patty cake point sparring in my Dojo. In my mind a Yudansha is someone that can handle their own in real Kumite. I'm sure I'll get some heat on this but I assume you that this is not meant to come off as threatening but more so to make my point. They just are not real BB's.

It's been that way as long as I have been with the organization. Most of Shinshii's students are military, police, security, etc. That is my guess, its always about money. Yes, we get queries all the time to change the bylaws and allow students children to train. Unfortunately no. Some of us have brought up the issue with how to incorporate this but have been told that if it passes we will figure it out. I can tell you that if it did pass a separate class would have to be added by those instructor wanting them. There is no possible way that a kid could join one of my classes (even lower Mudansha classes) the way we teach now. For one they could not handle the pace or intensity. And two they could not handle nor understand the combat methodology of the classes. To me the association is either going to change the way we teach and sell out or they are going to maintain things as they are now. I for one will never teach kids so I don't have to worry about organizing special classes that will take up more of my personal time. I don't don't need the money nor the hassle. I own my Dojo so rent is not an issue and I could care less about discounts that are being offered. I have trained and taught the same way for over three decades and I just don't see me changing that because of a vote to increase numbers. I have the second largest student numbers in our association and can tell you that 90% of my students are against the entire concept. I am not going to loose my students over adding kids classes. That and I am way to direct and way to demanding to teach little kids. I would have little kids running for their mommies telling them that Shinshii is mean. That and I could not stomach having someone tell me that they think their kid deserves to test or question my teaching methods. It would not work for me personally. I would never personally do this because I don't have to.

I get where you are heading. However and again a child does not, no can not in my mind exhibit my ideal of what a Shodan is and never will. I don't have a problem with other instructors promoting kids if they feel this is right for them and their organization. It's not right for mine. There is a maturity level needed for the grade and I would never teach a child what I teach adults. I'm sorry if you can't convince me as I realize you believe in this practice and are trying to get your point across but for me it will never happen. And as JR 137 pointed out, it's hard to look up to a kid as the ideal of what Yudansha represents. Again old school thinking for an old dog I guess but somethings, especially the core beliefs will never change.

We had this same problem (not really a problem). We held testing every 4 months for the lower Mudansha grades. And yes we would get complaints from those that joined in say february to use your example. However at the time we told them it would only happen once and that did satisfy most. About 6 years ago someone suggested to Shinshii that tests be offered every two months instead of four. This worked out pretty well as it limited the time you would have to wait to test. Of course this was and is not perfect because you still may have to wait 5 months, but it's better than 7 months. I personally hold testing every month on a set day. Those ready to test are able too, those that aren't wait, but once they are ready the longest they wait is a month. However I must clarify that this is not a set cycle. Our students do not get to test every 4 months unless they are ready to test. It could be 6 months or 3 months depending on their effort and on the instructors discretion. So to be honest it doesn't matter how often you have a testing cycle if your students aren't ready. Time in grade to me is more of a suggestion not a set in stone date because everyone progresses at different rates.

I could have seen this one coming... but your not going to like my answer. I also do not see gender as an obstacle. We all have deficiencies, strengths and weaknesses. The key is to teach your students how to maximize their strengths and to use their weaknesses to their benefit. It kills me that Karateka would ever question how someone could overcome a stronger or larger person. Is this not what we teach our students? Is this not what we find within the Kata/Bunkai. We are taught every day how to overcome larger opponents. We are taught how to capitalize on our opponents weaknesses. So yes she would fair just fine. Is ego a weakness? It is when you go into a fight thinking you have already won because you underestimate your opponent. I can take a larger man down just as fast as a smaller one. I see no difference. The body can be damaged if you understand it's weaknesses. A large man is the same as a small man. You obviously approach each situation differently and assess them according to their strengths and weaknesses but lets face it, if you strike me in the throat do I not gasp for air? To answer your question she would fair about the same as a 18 yr old 115 lb male. The strategy would differ, their approach would differ, their strengths and weaknesses differ but when they square off they will do as they have been trained to do and they will through their own way hold their own. I have seen mountainous men be taken down by the smallest of men. The worst I have ever been beaten was by a guy that weighed a 100 lbs soaken wet. It did not matter that I was trained or out weighed him by more than a 100 lbs. I have also witnessed women take down larger males by utilizing their strengths and their training. Why train if it doesn't matter if you actually meet someone that out weighs, is stronger, is scarier than you? Women can be just as dangerous as men if trained properly. It's also a matter of mentality. How willing are you to be maimed? If a woman hurts you enough and you start to realize that you may be permanently injured do you quit? It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog. Oh and let me clarify. I do not give a pass or take it easy on someone just because they are a girl. They train the same and test the same as the men. Gender does not give you a pass out on the street so there is no pass in the Dojo. Again, some might think me to old school but it is what it is. This is how I have been brought up in the arts and this is how I bring my students up in the arts. And yes before someone else asks, there are those students that do not share my mentality and do not stay with me. But again that's just the way it is. I am not there to baby sit. I am here to teach and to pass on the art that I love to worthy students. I do not have favorites and all students are treated as equal and as such are trained and tested the exact same no matter age, gender, size, weight, or any other difference. I do not see differences, I see students. And as such I take their training seriously and expect them to as well. Lets face it we are not training to patty cake with a mugger, rapist, or murderer. We train so that if (God forbid) we meet that person that looks to do us harm, we can defend ourselves and walk away so that we can continue to live our lives. That's as simple as it is. Having said this I do not put the thought in my students mind that their is someone or some type of person that they can not beat. To me this is self defeating and guarantees them to loose if placed in this situation. Why then would I say that a 18 yr old 115 lb girl could not hold her own and/or do damage sufficient to walk away from an altercation with a larger man? I wouldn't because I believe if trained correctly anyone can stand up to anyone. I know it's coming so I'll further clarify... No I am not saying that everyone of my students can whip anyone in the world. I realize that others may be further in their journey and have more skill and knowledge. I get that a Shodan may not be able to beat a Sandan or a girl may not be able to ward off a trained professional MMA fighter. I am not invincible nor would I claim to be. I am old and can't do some of the things I could do as a younger man but I can say I can hold my own against larger, stronger, and younger men because I do it on a weekly basis. You don't have to be the badest you only have to know how to end the fight if you need to.

You certainly stated my thoughts better than I could. This is exactly how I feel even though it is not a popular point of view now days. I could not say it any better. When I was coming up we looked at BB's as if they were the best of the best and the baddest around. We knew that if they wore that grade they were not someone you wanted to mess with. We also knew what they went through to earn that rank and we were both excited and terrified to get to the point that Shinshii would tell us we were ready to test. It was a respected grade. I feel like now days the respect for the grade has diminished to such an extent that even instructors say "it's just another grade" as if it were just above Hachikyu (white belt). It means much more than the piece of cloth around your waist. It is a symbol and as such should be held to a higher standard and stand apart from the Mudansha ranks IMHO. And I agree that our Shodan do represent us and who are what the outside world judge us by. Why then would anyone want to lessen the requirements? Who wants to be represented by the mediocre? I want to be represented by the best. After all what better symbol is their for a potential student to join you, than when they see what they could become?

Majority. There are 8 instructors that sit on the board. All have 1 vote each. If the vote leans 5 to 3 either way it is enacted or rejected. In order to answer this I will have to fill you in on how we became a board ran association. As you know our Shinshii retired a few years back. At that time he had three (used to be 4 senior students but 1 passed 8 years ago) senior students or as he put it in-line students. I was number three in rank and number two in time of the three. At the time the association was in an up roar and many where fighting over who would be the successor. To me this did not make sense as I thought he would naturally hand it down to the first in-line. I cared little for the bickering and as usual concerned myself with teaching and my research. Rumor had it that Shinshii was not going to pass the association down to the 1st in-line and due to this he left the association before the anouncement was made. Due to this Shinshii upset the entire student body by asking me to take the reins instead of the 2nd in-line. I of course turned this appointment down due to lack of rank (Rokudan) and for the fact that I knew this would topple the association. I also felt I could not fill Shinshii's shoes. This turned out to be a terrible mistake but that is another story as we ended up loosing students/instructors in mass. Instead of offering the position to the 2nd in-line he decided to create a board of instructors. We never had a board before this unless you count the position of treasurer and Shinshii as a board. He placed me as the "instructors instructor" so to speak, and put me in charge of curriculum, history, applications and testing and made me the president of the board. He bestowed the title of Soshi (to which I had no idea what it meant since this is not a term we use but he told me it meant most knowledgeable instructor or head instructor). He placed the 2nd in-line as the VP who latter went the way of the 1st in-line and was replaced. He placed an instructor as secretary and treasurer and the last two as just board members with no responsibilities except to assist us and attend meetings and cast their votes. Making a total of 6 instructors. He further established a rule that each instructor on the board would over see "x" number of instructors/schools and their students and would represent them in the voting process. It was set up that every 2 years the student body can vote to replace or retain said board members. To further explain; if a item is up for a vote an email goes out to all schools outlining the issue at hand. The instructor then talk to their senior students and contact their board instructor and tell them if it is a yea or nae vote. What should happen from that point is the instructor compiles the votes along with his and votes according to the majority. This seldom happens as I have heard the rumblings and complaints of other instructors charges. So skipping ahead to 2 years ago the 1st in-line and 2nd in-line returned to the association. Due to the fact that the 1st in-line has the highest grade (Hachidan) and the 2nd in-line had the second highest grade (Nanadan) the board voted by a majority to place them both on the board. I was happy as a lark to step down as president as I have a full time job, several schools to oversee and test, and my own students not to mention a family and hobbies I had not been able to do for some time. The board took a vote and the 1st in-line was made president the 2nd in line was made VP and I maintained my position of being in charge of curriculum, history, applications and testing. We actually maintained the other two bringing our count to 8. Now to answer your question my exact position is one of 8 chairs. No more power and no less than any of the other chairs. Unfortunately no. It was never set up this way. It is on the honor system or is supposed to be. No one can keep an issue from entering for a vote. Believe me a wish we had a "that's stupid" clause where we could just move on instead of wasting time on issues no one will pass. It's a good thing 90% of the time because anyone can bring an issue to a vote which means the entire student body has a voice. However there are times, that last 10%, that you shake your head and ask yourself or the member next to you why would anyone even ask this of us. Well the way we have to fight against them is debate and the fact that the board is pretty evenly split between traditional and modern. Basically a stalemate. If something is to pass one of the sides must cross over and vote for or against an issue. If not it stays stagnant. No. I have never heard of this but I will be looking it up. Thank you. Yes. Every two years. Which is what worries me. I personally feel that our P has sour feelings about Shinshii's decisions and a concerted effort in the guise of increasing numbers has been pushed forward since he was placed on the board. The president has personally put forth issues that would make Shinshii role into his grave. I have caught wind of some of his feelings from the VP who is more traditionally minded. However the board gets voted on the first of next year and I already know that I am one of the obstacles he is trying to get replaced. Unfortunately no such thing exists in our bylaws. The only way someone can be removed is by voting them off the board. Agreed. This is the only reason I remain as a board member. Personally I would rather just train and teach and leave the political gobbly goop to others. If I felt that his legacy was not under attack I would have stepped completely down when the 1st and 2nd in-line came back and just concerned myself with my own betterment and the betterment of my students. Agreed. I appreciate the advice and your comments on the matter. Sounds like you have a ton of knowledge and have played this childish political game longer than I, so I will look into the books you recommended but I doubt it will do much good as it does not sound like we are set up like you. In fact it sounds like the way we are set up is childlike compared to your organization. These things were not established because no one thought they needed to be. It's exhausting to even think about. I do however appreciate your insights. Maybe I can gain something from this and put some tools into my pouch that I can use to stop some of this nonsense. I guess time will tell.

I know a lot of others have junior black belts and I see the point of view however it kills me to see kids running around with BB's on their waste when I know they could never measure up to the real grade. I get that it's not the same as Shodan but I think it's the perception that bothers me and others in my organization. This has been brought to a vote several times by our president but has been shot down every time. I guess this is part of my old time thinking that I just can not get past. I was adamantly apposed to the whole concept but after reading others reasonings behind it I can see their points. However for me, I just can not bring myself to give a child a BB. It's just not in me. I have nothing against those that do anymore but it's just a personal thing for me. However that does not mean my association will not eventually pass this practice. After I found out what ShodanHo was it took a few minutes to catch my breath at this suggestion. However I am told that the student does not wear a black belt but a different belt for this grade so I find little harm but do not understand why it would even be needed as we have utilized Ikkyu since I started and it worked out just fine. I guess just a way to add more belts to comply with the masses. I still don't get it but I'm trying to see the value in these things, just having culture shock I guess. To the bolded above, can you please elaborate on it please? Yes holding a Black Belt does convey a message to others that they know how to protect themselves and do so competently. But let me put this to you; what if all martial arts schools didn't use ranks, would those students measure in ability of the curriculum required? When I grade students to Black Belt, and irregardless of age I do not promote them to that rank if I personally don't think 1) they deserve it and 2) Does this student have the technical ability of existing black belts within' the club. You don't necessarily need to add more belts to it, because if you run a Junior Black Belt Line they can wear the Black Belt w/ a White Stripe down the middle for their Dan Grades up until they reach your minimum age requirements to grade to Shodan-Ho or Shodan (whichever you grade to immediately from 1st Kyu). At my current dojo we have 9 Kyu Grades + 11 Dan Grades (this includes Shodan-Ho), and any student eligible for promotion to Black Belt is able to. But they are expected to perform at that level and compare well to others. I knew this was not a popular subject that I should have avoided. Ok here is my opinion on this subject. First I do not think it is just about learning and knowing the curriculum. Yes to have the knowledge is very important but this is only half of what I believe makes a Shodan. Not going to be popular but here it goes... If I put a, lets say 14 year old, up against my other Shodans and Nidans they can not handle their own without these other men holding back. Our Shodan and Sandan tests are the hardest we give. This is for a few reason but at the top of the list is the fact that no one is awarded Shodan without deserving it and proving that they are worthy of the title. I have said I am old fashioned before so everyone should know this as I explain what I mean, our Shodan test takes a minimum of a day and a half but usually takes three due to exhaustion and the student needing the opportunity to pace themselves. The normal requirements are tested but instead of just showing that you know and are somewhat proficient in the Mudansha Kata, Kihon, Tuidi, Tegumi, and Kyusho techniques you must prove that you are very proficient. I hate the word mastered but this would be a very close word to describe our requirements. This consists of all curriculum from Hachikyu thru Sankyu and a decent proficiency for Nikyu and Ikkyu requirements. This tests the students knowledge and proficiency in the curriculum. To test the students skills and abilities in utilizing this knowledge we put them up against every Nikyu, Ikkyu, Shodan and Nidan in the school. They must be able to best all Nikyu, most Ikkyu and hold their own against Shodans and be able to hang in the fight against the Nidans. Again I have yet to see a 14 year old able to measure up to what we consider worthy of the grade. In my mind your students represent you as an instructor and more importantly represent the art. If I promoted a youngster to Shodan they would need to be able to hold their own against other equivalent grades no matter the size or age. We have everyone mix it up with everyone. There are no size/weight limits because you will not run into a 200lb hoodlum that walks away because you are only 100lbs. We do not make exceptions for age in that only 16 yr olds fight other 16 to 18 yr olds. They fight 20 to 40 yr olds. There are no rules on the street so why implement them in the dojo? The bottom line is I do not feel that a child would be able to meet our criteria for promotion and I would never hand the belt to someone that I thought was not worthy. Please do not take this as a judgement on you or any other school that awards BB's to youth. Requirements are different from school to school and from art to art. This is just my point of view and my requirements based on my Shinshii's requirements. They do not work for everyone and I realize there is merit in what you have stated above. However you asked me to clarify so I felt obligated to do so. I also realize I have no filter or political correctness so please do not take what I have said as a condemnation although it might come across that way. I certainly do not mean it that way. I respect your choice and reasons to do what you do as well as any other instructor here on KF. However these are my reasons and I stand by them based on my personal experiences as they have proven to be true in our particular art/school.

Thank you for the explanation. I find value in this and will actually be trying this out in training to see if this works. I appreciate this information.

I know a lot of others have junior black belts and I see the point of view however it kills me to see kids running around with BB's on their waste when I know they could never measure up to the real grade. I get that it's not the same as Shodan but I think it's the perception that bothers me and others in my organization. This has been brought to a vote several times by our president but has been shot down every time. I guess this is part of my old time thinking that I just can not get past. I was adamantly apposed to the whole concept but after reading others reasonings behind it I can see their points. However for me, I just can not bring myself to give a child a BB. It's just not in me. I have nothing against those that do anymore but it's just a personal thing for me. However that does not mean my association will not eventually pass this practice. After I found out what ShodanHo was it took a few minutes to catch my breath at this suggestion. However I am told that the student does not wear a black belt but a different belt for this grade so I find little harm but do not understand why it would even be needed as we have utilized Ikkyu since I started and it worked out just fine. I guess just a way to add more belts to comply with the masses. I still don't get it but I'm trying to see the value in these things, just having culture shock I guess.

Agreed 100%. I have no problem with other instructors wanting to teach children. The issue is right now it is worded as a suggestion but the body language and tone lead me to believe this will not necessarily be the case down the road. None in a perfect world. The problem is the president has suggested a discount for instructors that have "x" of (fill in the grade). This in my mind leads to a scary place where instructors feel pressured to advance students to get discounts. Well that is one of the items for vote that I did not bother to include in my original post. The CI's are not necessarily what bothers me on this subject. It's more so the views and agenda of the president and a few other members of the board. One of the items for vote is the decrease in the time it takes to achieve Shodan. Right now the so called time in grade is 5 to 7 years. This really means nothing as it it solely up to the student as to how fast or slow it takes to be ready for this grade and it is at the instructors discretion whether they are ready. It has been suggested that this verbiage be removed from the student manual and replaced with a more "today" friendly time frame. This is to make the suggestion that it is possible to achieve said grade in less time, or so they are telling us. My personal opinion is by changing the verbiage this enables them to reduce the requirements so that like other schools, Shodan becomes just another rank. The way Shinshii set our structure up was that all Yudansha were tested at the Hombu with the students instructor sitting with Shinshii during the test. If the student was not ready this enabled Shinshii to question the instructor why a student was ever suggested in the first place. This kept instructors in check and maintained the quality and requirements for each grade. All Mudansha grades where directly held by the students instructor. The way it is structured now is all Yudansha up to Godan test before myself or the vice president and the students instructor. All Rokudan and above must travel to the Hombu to test before the president, VP and myself. The student instructor may attend but does not sit on the testing board. All Yudansha grading require three signatures. The requirements are what is in question right now and some are suggesting that they be reduced so that the ranks can be bolstered to make it seem more enticing to new students. Don't ask me how this makes any sense. Believe me when I say you are lucky. Politics galore. If I did not see a concerted effort to change Shinshii's legacy I would step down in a heart beat. Too much time and too much arguing about petty things IMHO.

They are suggesting we open it up to students as young as 8. Yes the day care issue had occurred to me and a few others. This is definitely a concern. I am not against the belts per say as long as we maintain the integrity of the grades. They added a grade when I was a Shodan and it didn't seem to change anything because the requirements to achieve said grade were not changed. I am not for adding grades for the sake of making students happy. I do not want the focus to be on the goal of achieving a grade rather than on striving to perfect oneself. The grade to me means absolutely nothing. It's the quality of training and the students ability, knowledge and skill level that means something. A black belt tied around the waist of a beginner doesn't make them a black belt. To be honest I wish we would go back to just a white belt and a black belt. When you did not ask when you could test you were told. It takes the pressure of getting to a new grade off and you are able to just concentrate on the lessons that are being taught. It tends to make you concentrate on perfecting the lessons instead of racing to the next belt. Always keep a beginners mind and train the basics. I personally would rather have a quality Shechikyu that has spent 5 months perfecting what was taught instead of a 3 month Shechikyu that does just enough to get by because they want the next grade. We have grades but the student maintains their current belt. Example - Hachikyu to Rokkyu are white, Gokyu to Sankyu are green, Nikyu to Ikkyu are brown. As it is we see beginner students getting discouraged until they figure out that they will be awarded the next belt when the instructor feels they are ready to test and not before. I fear that the push to award discounts based on an instructor having "x" belts/grades in their schools will make some want to pass to get the discounts and the integrity of the grade will be diminished and degraded to mean nothing. I also do not want the instructors focus to be on how many (file in the blank) grades they have. This is not a competition and it is not a race. A student should be promoted when the student has shown they deserve said promotion. This is dictated by the students ability and knowledge not the need to have so many "x" belts. Including a Yellow, Orange, Blue and Purple belt is not the issue as much as the draw to promote to encourage more students to join. Don't ask me where these colored belts fit in. They did not tell us and I didn't care enough to ask. You hit the nail on the head... it's always about money. Right now no one pays for testing. Shinshii always felt that you paid for the instruction and there is no reason to charge someone for what they earned and have already paid for. Rank is not for sale but instruction is. Along with the extra belts, a rider goes along with the vote (not mandatory [right now] but a suggested way to bolster revenue) to charge for testing. If you are a full time instructor (we have very few) I can see this being a draw to vote yes. However I feel the same way as my Shinshii in that I am charging the student for classes, a patch (per patch), for the student manual (one time fee), and for their new Obi (belt). I can't see charging a student for something they have already paid for and earned. After all I already know the student is ready for the test before I invite them. Why then charge them for something I know they have already earned. I am sure I'll get kick back on this but this is how I personally feel and to this day I have never been charged for a grading and have never charged a student for a grading. It just goes against my grain. I agree that change can be a good thing. I have actually changed my mind and point of view on a few things while ready posts here on KF. That is why I am bring this topic to all of you so that I can see other points of view to help me make a decision. As it sits right now no changes will happen because we are stalemated. However as I said some of the topics for vote are not per say an issue for me and I could swing either way. In asking my students, depending on the topic being put to a vote, some are strongly against, some are for. It's a stalemate for the most part with them as well so I falls to me to make a decision and I want to make a good decision that isn't skewed on what my president says are out of date view points. Well if I'm honest he says my views are like a rotary phone in today's age of smart phones. A little insulting but I get where he is coming from. However I feel that his views are more in line with what I would call a McDojo than with Shinshii's view which are very traditional. So I guess I can see both sides but I tend to fall on the side of tradition and Shinshii's views rather than the modern views of our president. In knowing this I figure I would step outside of my traditional views and get other view points. What can I say I'm old, but I'm at least trying to see good in modern methods and view points. I guess than means an old dog can learn new tricks.