MatsuShinshii

I started the arts with no ideals in mind other than I wanted to learn how to defend myself. As a few years went by the principles of my teacher where imprinted and my mindset changed. As a student I wanted to learn all I could and improve my skill so that one day I could teach and pass on these same ideals and principles to my students. Skip years ahead, I began teaching and my thoughts were only to learn all that I could and pass on all that I had learned so that one day the flame could be passed on to a new torch that would carry it on to the next generation. I was talking with a friend and he was talking about a subservient coworker and how useless he was because he did not know this or that. I asked him if he had taken the time to teach this coworker the things he was complaining about. His comment was "why waste my time". I asked him other questions about this coworker and he said that he did fine in his job tasks but did not have the knowledge to perform the skills to get to the next step up. I asked why he wasn't willing to help this person and his answer hit me with a revelation of my teachings. He said "why should I take my time to teach someone something that could move him closer to my job"? It got me thinking about my Shinshii's words and his teachings. He said that every student is like a diamond in the rough. They start out like coal, but if worthy, can be polished into a diamond. He stated that if they are worthy of your time and efforts, ignore the small imperfections and see the true potential within and concentrate on perfecting that. His idea of a perfect student was one that surpassed him in both skill and knowledge. His ideal was a student that no longer needed his instruction. At this point the student would be capable of carrying on and passing on the art to his students so that the art would remain as it was passed down to him and thus never cease. Does the world seem less likely to help others succeed? I have noticed both in business and within the MA community that it is far more likely that our seniors hold back knowledge, whether it out of fear of being surpassed or out of fear that the student will feel they no longer need them. Does it make sense to others here to pass on all to worthy students? Does it make sense to endeavor to make your students better than you? Maybe it's my age or maybe the people who taught me, but I was always taught that the mark of a good instructor is shown by the talent, skill and knowledge of his/her students. Is ego and pride such that we fear being passed by our students? Is this such a bad thing? After all if our students succeed is this not our success as well? Just food for thought.

In Shindokan, we DON'T treat the block as a block or a strike, but only as a receiver of a technique directed at us. In that, we're deflecting whilst receiving any said technique, and when we receive said technique we're absorbing the energy of said technique. Sensei8, That is the first time in a long time that I have heard the proper description for Uke outside of my style in a long while. The term block is commonly used but this is not entirely correct. To Receive is the proper terminology for Uke. It can be a block, a sweep, a deflection, a re-direction, or a strike. However it is the action of receiving the opponents attack that gives you the edge. By accepting the attack you have the opportunity to choose one of the aforementioned solutions. I love that you used this terminology Bob. Thanks for the correction.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Tang Soo Do basically Shotokan? I seem to remember back when I was young that the local Tang Soo Do instructor told me that it came from Shotokan after I questioned him about the Kata's being the same as Shorin Ryu Kata's. Things may have changed. Ultimately you should choose which ever art appeals to you and will fulfill your individual needs. My suggestion is sit in on at least three classes and ask as many questions as you need to of the instructor. This will often times make up your mind for you. Good luck in your journey.

When entering and leaving the Dojo, to the Shomen, to the instructor and to fellow Deshi before and after training. Bowing is traditional but it is also a sign of respect and teaches us to be humble. Its a way to show your appreciation for your instructors teachings and its a way to show respect for your fellow students. We bow irregardless of whether its during training, promotions or ceremonies (for which we have very few).

Nidan Melbourne, I do not practice this kata, however I have come across it in my research of Hakutsuru (White Crane) in the past. As I recall Genkaku is one of many White Crane Quan passed down by Go Genki to Miyagi and others during Quan Fa training sessions. Go Genki was one of the later pioneers that brought Southern White Crane to Okinawa and primarily to Naha-Te. Some of these Quan/Kata can also be found and practiced in Shuri-Te schools/arts, although passed down by different teachers like Iwah, Ason, Annan, Wanshu, etc. I called my old Goju Sensei and he said that he has heard of the Kata being taught, although he has never seen it. He said that if taught, it is primarily taught to senior instructors. I have no idea if this is true or even makes sense to you but I thought I would pass his thought along in hopes that it would help. Good luck.

Agreed. Well put.

Counter productive? It is very productive. It conditions the bodies weapons, it teaches you how to strike effectively, teaches proper body mechanics to generate power... counterproductive????????????????? No it is not used strictly out of tradition. Its primary focus is as I described above. Yes some opt to use a heavy bag but to be 100% honest, it has its uses, but I do not feel that it can replace the Makiwara. No disrespect to you or sports/science, but who cares what they think? If you ask a room full of scientists a question you will get varying degrees of answers and less that 10% will agree 100%. This has been practiced for hundreds of years by millions of MAist's and if done properly only benefits the practitioner. Actually I do remember a TV show, sports/science or something along those lines, that studied the effect and showed the benefit. Its called wolves law or something along those lines. They where showing how a human being can break what seems unbreakable. The concentration was on martial artists and Tameshiwari. They discussed the training leading up to actual breaks and the science behind it and proved that it does strengthen the bones by making them denser. My question is... if it benefits the practitioner why would you not utilize the Makiwara in your training? Traditional or not it's an effective training tool.

Finished. Good luck all.

Tuidi (Tuite) is not an art unto itself. It is mixed bag of tricks so to speak. It comes from two distinct disciplines. Quin Na (Chin Na) and Di/Ti. Together with Tegumi and Kyusho it makes up the self defense applications of Karate. It however was never meant to be a stand alone art but rather a contributing factor in a total art. It consists of joint locks, traps, chokes, hyperextension's, bone breaking, and what would be called dirty fighting techniques. Tegumi, I believ is what you might be thinking of. It is a mixture of Okinawan Sumo, grappling and some believe it was also influenced by Jujitsu by way of the satsuma clan of Samurai. And to answer your question... Tuidi coupled with Tegumi is the answer to modern day Jujitsu and MMA when it is used in concert with Karate's stricks and kicks.

They are easy to make. There are two easy ways to make your own. 1. buy two 2x4x8' boards. cut one into 2) 2' pieces. Measure to your breast bone. as an example; if the measurement is 4' cut 2' off the total length of the 8' board. Bury two feet in the ground vertically and take the two 2' pieces and bury one at the bottom of the hole horizontally and the other one about 6" from the surface horizontally so that they are on the back side of the post and touching the post. This will support the post when you strike it. 4' should be above ground. Bury and back fill with gravel up to 4" from the surface and cover with dirt. Tamp and repeat with more dirt if necessary. 2. Buy 1) 2x4x8, a 3x4 square steel tube and some concrete. dig a hole, again using the above example, and place the 3x4" tube in the middle. back fill with concrete and let set. As in the example above cut off 2' off the board. Using a table saw cut the 2' board into a wedge long ways. place your 6' board into the tube and wedge the 2' cut piece behind it. You should have 4' or whatever measurement it is to your breast bone above the ground. As far as the striking surface, I would suggest high density foam or carpet underlayment will work if you do not have high density foam. Wrap this with sisal or sports tape or cover it with leather. I would suggest 1" thick if you have not conditioner before. Once you get used to this you can remove foam or just place a few pieces of leather on the board and wrap with sisal or cotton rope, based on your preference.

I have used several different types of Makiwara over my journey and train on them weekly. As to the why... conditioning of the weapons and setting not only muscle memory but proper body alignment. And as Sensei8 stated it teaches you the correct way to strike. As to the how... that strictly depends on the weapon being utilized and the type of Makiwara used. We start our students out slowly and gradually build up over two or three years to full power/full speed. The idea is to break down the bone (I believe this is wolfs law, not sure of the spelling), more or less micro fractures, so that it will fill back in when the body repairs it. Over time this causes the bone to get very dense and very hard. This enables the practitioner to strike with full force without the fear of damaging the hand, foot, shin, elbow, knee, etc. We do not employ the method by which the skin, tissues and muscles are damaged and badly bruised. Most practitioners start off striking the Makiwara at full force and damage the underlying tissues, joints, and muscles that can lead to issues years later. I know of an instructor that can not fully open his hand due to the damage caused to his knuckles/joints. Major Arthritis. We practice a slow build up and allow the body to repair itself. I have personally been using it for over 35 years and can strike with full power and at full speed without damage. As to types that we use are as follows; Post (flat or board type) - This is a board sunk into the ground 1/3 the height of the post. There are two types that we use; 1. reduces in thickness as it goes up from the base and is generally 3/4" - 1" at the top and 2" at the base. 2. is a straight board that maintains it's thickness throughout the post. Post (round) - This is a round post sunk into the ground 1/3 the height of the post. This is helpful in training strikes that are not employed directly to the front. Any portion of the post can and is targeted. Hanging - this is typically a heavy bag hung horizontally and is used for ascending or descending strikes. Bamboo bundle - this is utilized to strengthen the fingers for Nukite (Spear hand type strikes) and for clawing/grabbing type strikes. I would warn against stationary Makiwara that do not give, as this is dangerous for Deshi to train on. Something has to give. If it's not the Makiwara it's the weapon you are conditioning.

Hachikyu, Shechikyu, Rokkyu, Gokyu, Yonkyu, Sankyu, Nikyu, Ikkyu, Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, Godan, Rokudan, Nanadan, Hachidan, Kudan/Kyudan, Judan.

You do not need a license to teach like you would need a license to practice medicine or teach at a college. However he may be referring to teaching licenses (Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi) that some organizations utilize to prove that you have qualifications to teach others. However this does not necessarily prove anything either since most instructors start teaching at Sandan, and some even earlier depending on the organizations protocol, and Renshi is typically not granted until Yondan to Rokudan in most traditional schools. I have no idea what this guy was talking about but my bet is he was testing you or just messing with you.

Besides Sensei8's style and maybe a few others most styles do not have testing requirements past Rokudan or Nanadan. Some stop all learning and testing after Godan. I happen to know a few. Either way most organizations promote based on time, contribution to the art and based on ones students numbers and grades past a certain rank. In my art you are tested up to Nanadan and from that point on it's pretty much political and just handed to you. You can as Sensei8 has eluded in past posts, request to be tested. But to be quite honest it is only for the benifit of the recipient of the rank. The promotion is in most cases a forgone conclusion. We do however have a voluntary Kodansha advanced class in which the participants learn various additional Kata, advanced historical research of the art, and further knowledge of Ti and White Crane (Hakutsuru). This is not for rank and is not tested but rather for the betterment of the participant and knowledge of the art. Our Shinshii thought it was a good idea to further ones training after you get to a certain point as to not stagnate and our board has carried on that tradition. It used to be only available to Hachidan and above but it has been opened up to the rank of Rokudan and above since we do not have a Kudan ranking since Shinshii decided to retire.

We allow our students to start weapons training (Rokushaku) at Sankyu. I do not teach kids but as a personal rule I would not start teaching Kobudo to anyone under the age of 16. Maturity goes a long way when placing a weapon in someones hand.

I agree that the school owner has expenses and has to pay bills and make a living and I am fine with that. However I fall back on my Shinshii's statements to all of his instructors when it comes to testing... "you should not have to pay for something you earned". In most schools today a student is charged for classes, personal instruction, seminar's, books (that are required for the student to progress), video's/dvd's, uniforms, etc. etc. etc. Why then would you charge a student for something that they have paid for over and over? They paid for the instruction. They should not have to pay for something they have already earned. Most good instructors already know who is ready to be tested and know that they have already passed based on their performance and progression in class. Why then if not to just gouge and squeeze a little more money from the student, would anyone charge them for what they have already earned? Fine make them pay for their belt, not like it's expensive with quantity discounts schools get, especially large schools. But why would anyone charge them just to show up and test for something that, again, a good instructor already knows that they have passed? I could almost see it if it is a small school and less students to pay the rent, electric, water, and instructors wages but the funny thing is this practice is most prevalent in large schools with a multitude of students. Ego... maybe. Personally I think the better word is greed. For Yudansha ranks up to Nidan I can see a small fee to cover the instructor's time if your tests last as long as ours. However $400+? For what? Considering that most modern school's Yudansha tests take less than 4 hours that is $100 an hour times the number of students testing. Wow what a bargain for the instructor. Really raking in the profits. Sarcasm!!!! If you are the instructor and do not know that your student is at this level and you allow them to test then shame on you. Is it just in case the student doesn't pass? Maybe it's to punish the student for trying. No that can not be it because the instructor decides when a student is ready to be tested for Yudansha grading and not the student. I don't get it. I have been teaching for over 30 years and have yet to get why any student would pay for something they have already paid for in money, blood, sweat and tears. To me it's just not ethical. As I see it this is a proud moment for both the student and the instructor. It is just belittle to a mere business transaction by charging the student to be tested. Obviously I realize that this is not a popular opinion but it's my opinion.

Good point. Mustering up the courage to strike out into the unknown is a step up above those that are not willing to put themselves on the line and try. Well said sir.

This is targeted more so at instructors/practitioners of traditional Okinawan Karate rather than Japanese or Modern Karate. The question is how many of you learn or incorporate/teach the Ti (Original Okinawan combative art) methods along with the Toudi (Chinese Quan Fa) methods? I will give an example; How many teach the natural/diagonal punch? If you do not know what this strike is, it is similar in some respects to the Isshin ryu vertical punch but instead of vertical the fist ends up diagonal. The more widely utilized method of striking is the reverse punch. The fist starts out above the hip with the palm facing up and ends with the arm straight out and the palm facing down and parallel to the ground. The thumb is tucked under the fingers. This is believed to have been incorporated thru the teaching of the Chinese Quan Fa instructors when passing on thier arts to our founders. The natural or diagonal punch is executed much the same way with some fundamental differences. It starts much in the same way with the fist held above the hip but it ends with the palm diagonal to the ground versus parallel. The thunb is tucked to the side of the fist along the pointer finger much like a boxers fist when wearing a glove. The reason for this is it is thought to be more natural and in perfect body alignment and the thumb supports the wrist. To illustrate; stand with your arms hanging at your side and relax. The palm is not parallel to the side of your leg when in it's relaxed state. It is slightly diagonal to the leg. In this position the arm is in perfect alignment and all of the bones are lined up within the arm (or at least this is the belief). Now make a fist and tuck your thumb under the fingers as we are all taught when starting our training. Now with your other hand grab your fist and try to bend your wrist while resisting with your fist hand. The wrist bends. Now tuck your thumb along side of your pointer finger (side of the fist) and do the same experiment. The wrist is harder to bend. It is believed that by tucking the thumb along the side it puts the wrist in better alignment and engages the tendons and muscles that support the wrist. Essentially making it easier for you to strike with full power without the risk of spraining or hyper extending the wrist. This is the benefit but without much practice the down fall is the thumb can be injured if the target is missed and the thumb contacts the target instead of the knuckles. Isshin Ryu practitioners utilize this method but instead of allowing the fist to turn completely over as in the reverse punch or diagonal their punch is vertical. This is just one example. Utilizing the Toe kick or the bear hand or the single finger strike are a few others but the list goes on and on. I have dabbled in a few other arts and some still utilize these methods and some do not. I wonder if any of you practice these methods and if so what are they? Do they replace an accepted method (example: we replaced the reverse punch with the natural punch) or are they added to your curriculum?

I respect your view point and I somewhat agree with you because I understand where you are coming from. However I somewhat disagree with you as well. Coming from an Okinawan back ground you must know that the Kata was the fundamental means of transmission of old. Kihon was all but non-existent in terms of today's meaning of the word. Kihon was utilized to focus on a singular technique in terms of conditioning and learning the proper body mechanics in order to learn to gain full power potential. The original practitioners did not stand in a line and practice Kihon for half of the class. Furthermore Kihon comes from the Kata itself. The individual techniques are extracted to teach the student, again, how to gain full power when using the technique. But they were also not typically implemented as a singular technique but a group of techniques combined to allow the student to understand how they are used in conjunction with others such as blocks, grabs, kicks, sweeps, etc. etc. Kumite is essentially applying the techniques and combination of applications found within the Kata in a more free interpretive way. This was a way to allow the student to learn how to apply the techniques in motion by drawing from what they had learned and to teach them that unlike Kata, real life is ever changing and not confined to a set group of techniques and applications. This also teaches the student to analyze and utilize what they have been taught in different ways and to combat a wide range of attacks. Kumite was taught in stages in some schools and more free and non-restrictive in others but if you look at the applications themselves, they come from the Kata. IMHO Kata is the foundation and Kihon and Kumite are the walls and the roof. Take one away, as you say, you no longer have a complete structure. So again a somewhat agree with your premise and somewhat disagree with it. I guess its all in the way you look at it and how you were taught.

Agreed. However when talking to most modern martial artists they only understand the more modern day terminology which happens to be Japanese in terms of Karate. Most no longer utilize the Hogan dialect of old to describe something and even some natural born Okinawans do not understand their original language. If I said that I practice Todi or Toudi or Suidi, most would have no idea what this meant. I would loose most modern day Karateka due to translation. I am utilizing "Koryu" in terms of those arts that were not swallowed up and changed by the modern Japanese machine and forced to conform to their ideal of the art. Basically dumbing down the art to be able to be taught to school children. I refer to the arts that still practice the original Toudi and Ti techniques and incorporating them into everyday practice. I use this term because most understand this to mean old or original. I guess I could use the term traditional but this term means different things to different people. Depending who you talk to traditional could mean that the school still teaches Kata. As many McDojo's that are out there these days, this term could represent any school teaching the art without the incorporation of everything but the kitchen sink to make more money by incorporating "extra" to create more belts and thus make more money. Hopefully you understand that I merely use the word because this is the most accepted term to describe old ways. By the way excellent descriptions and explanations of the two meanings of Kata. I really appreciate your knowledge and learned something new today. Excellent post.

I disagree here. I don't think kata is a requirement or prerequisite for a Martial Art. There are many Eastern styles that do train kata, but I don't think the lack thereof means there is no Martial Art. I understand your point of view but I must point out that without Kata, which was and still is the delivery system for passing down the art, you would not have Karate. I understand that some arts are not passed down via Kata, Quan or even set routines. I guess my statement should have been there would be no Karate/Gung Fu without Kata/Quan. My point in fact is arts (lets take some modern day Karate styles) that do not teach Kata or only show their students Kata but do not explain what it is and how to extract the true intent of the art, but instead focus on Kihon (individual techniques such as blocks, strikes and kicks) and Kumite are not passing on the art but only a portion of it. Yes the argument can be made that one can learn the fundamentals through these practices but I argue that they are missing the true intent and the reason they are doing what they are doing. Kihon can only teach so much. Kumite without the foundation and understanding of the applications and how to utilize them will only teach so much. It is the Kata, and what they can and do teach us, that fills in the blanks and shows us what these other practices fall short of. I understand where you are coming from but you show me a Karateka that does not train in Kata and I'll show you a Karateka that fails to have a true understanding in the art. I'll go one step further and say I can show you a Karateka that is lacking in skills and knowledge of all of the applications and weapons available to him. Without Kata you can not IMHO truly have a firm grasp on the art. IMHO I will even go as far as to say without a true understanding of the Kata, one has no chance of mastering the art. This may not be popular with some modern day styles/schools but I have trained with some of these instructors and IMO they are lacking to say the least. Yes they can execute a perfect front snap kick or a back hand but are missing the glue that ties all of these techniques together and gives a broad understanding how to utilize them and when. Kata is like a book and Kihon are some of the individual sentences that make up the book. You have an understanding of what the sentence means but without reading the entire book they are pointless. Not to mention that you totally miss the other sentences such as the "hidden" techniques (Ti, Quan Fa, Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) that are not readily apparent. Without knowing the order of the sentences the book makes no sense. Do you have an understanding of the individual sentences? Yes. Do you fully understand the art as a whole? No you do not. You are using the "no true Scotsman" informal fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Reality is, there is many ways to have that eureka/light bulb moment and kata is one of them but...its not the only way! With all due respect to your point of view I stand with my statement and believe it to be true. I am sure there are plenty of ways to have a eureka moment but I am talking about understanding the art that the founder created through his training and insights. I am not sure how a eureka moment makes sense in the context of my statement. Yes we as Karateka need to discover our own way but if you are not first shown the original intent you have no foundation to build from. Again I repeat my original statement, "if you do not understand Kata which is where the entire art is derived, you do not understand the art itself. 20 eureka moments do not add up to 1000's of proven applications. Again with all due respect I stand on my original statement based on my years of training in both traditional, Koryu and Modern day Karate styles. If you have a valid counter point that I have not experienced please share it as I do not claim to be an expert but merely passing on what my experiences have taught me. I may have misunderstood your point. Just to make sure we are on the same page, what your saying is, kata is about understanding the art as oppose to mastering? I will be honest with you, maybe my past is clouding my judgement but when I was a kid, I trained Shotokan and I remember on Friday nights, there was a very verbally abusive teacher that LOVED katas. I was not good at them and kept saying in front of the class "Are you stupid? "or he would ask if I was a slow person ( this site is very sensitive to language so I toned it down the "slow person", he used a different word which starts with R...) My disagreement is that Kata is the only or best way of understanding the art. Boxers shadow box, some judokas only do drills and randori and they develop mastery and same with various grapplers who are mostly about drills and sparring. One thing to mention, most Okinawan karatekas train in Hojo Undo and from what I have been told, they believe that Hojo Undo is the soul of Karate and every karateka should train in it. You are partially right in the first statement. However if you do not understand the art (what is contained within the Kata) you can not master the art as it was created. This does not mean that you can not master the physical aspects of the art. It simply means that you will not have a true understanding and therefor can not hope to master the art as it was passed down from the founder. Again just my opinion as it pertains to my years of training and the teaching passed down to me. In the second statement above... this explains where you are coming from. It sounds like your teacher was about the competition aspects of Kata rather than the self defense/combative aspects of Kata. More focused on snap and flashy techniques. If you had my experience you would see a different side of Kata. It's not all about hitting you mark everytime or snapping your Gi the loudest. It's about what the individual techniques and the combined applications actually represent and how to utilize them to defend yourself. If you are really interested find an old school teacher that is not interested in tournaments but rather passing on the art as it was passed down thru the generations as not only a "Do" but as a "Jutsu". A combative answer to an attack. I am using the Japanese terminology because that is what most understand today. (For Kusotare) If you watch the old instructors there were no flashy snappy movements. They concentrated on the effectiveness of the technique and visualize how it is applied while performing the Kata. In your third statement... you are partially right. Boxers and Judoka learn by more or less Kumite alone. However the techniques that are available to them are openly trained and shared with the participants. They are also limited by these set techniques/applications to an extent. In Kata there are Bunkai. Bunkai meaning to disassemble - the Kata is disassembled into individual techniques and combined applications as handed down by the founder. The student learns the original Bunkai and then the student is allowed to analyze the techniques and applications with the guidance of the instructor (Bunseki) and then allowed to apply them to different scenarios (Oyo). This gives the student an unlimited amount of techniques, applications and combinations with which to answer different attacks. Karate is also different in that each area (Shuri, Tomari, Naha) and each individual style and instructor had techniques that were unique and what they considered the soul of what made their art. These techniques for the most part in modern dojo's are long forgoten because they do not train in Kata and do not teach the Bunkai to their students. The Kata and it's Bunkai contain the teachings of not only the Quan Fa styles that said founder learned but also their own families Ti/Di (indigenous Okinawan combative art). If all you learn is Kihon and Kumite, all you learn is half of the art (and I'm being very liberal saying half). Yes Hojo-Undo is very important to training, however IMHO it is far from the soul. Again without Kata there is not art. If all you had was Hojo-Undo, you would be strong and have conditioned weapons without the knowledge of how to properly implement them. And again, I mean no disrespect to your experience in the arts that has made up your points of view. This is simply my point of view based on my experiences.

I disagree here. I don't think kata is a requirement or prerequisite for a Martial Art. There are many Eastern styles that do train kata, but I don't think the lack thereof means there is no Martial Art. I understand your point of view but I must point out that without Kata, which was and still is the delivery system for passing down the art, you would not have Karate. I understand that some arts are not passed down via Kata, Quan or even set routines. I guess my statement should have been there would be no Karate/Gung Fu without Kata/Quan. My point in fact is arts (lets take some modern day Karate styles) that do not teach Kata or only show their students Kata but do not explain what it is and how to extract the true intent of the art, but instead focus on Kihon (individual techniques such as blocks, strikes and kicks) and Kumite are not passing on the art but only a portion of it. Yes the argument can be made that one can learn the fundamentals through these practices but I argue that they are missing the true intent and the reason they are doing what they are doing. Kihon can only teach so much. Kumite without the foundation and understanding of the applications and how to utilize them will only teach so much. It is the Kata, and what they can and do teach us, that fills in the blanks and shows us what these other practices fall short of. I understand where you are coming from but you show me a Karateka that does not train in Kata and I'll show you a Karateka that fails to have a true understanding in the art. I'll go one step further and say I can show you a Karateka that is lacking in skills and knowledge of all of the applications and weapons available to him. Without Kata you can not IMHO truly have a firm grasp on the art. IMHO I will even go as far as to say without a true understanding of the Kata, one has no chance of mastering the art. This may not be popular with some modern day styles/schools but I have trained with some of these instructors and IMO they are lacking to say the least. Yes they can execute a perfect front snap kick or a back hand but are missing the glue that ties all of these techniques together and gives a broad understanding how to utilize them and when. Kata is like a book and Kihon are some of the individual sentences that make up the book. You have an understanding of what the sentence means but without reading the entire book they are pointless. Not to mention that you totally miss the other sentences such as the "hidden" techniques (Ti, Quan Fa, Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) that are not readily apparent. Without knowing the order of the sentences the book makes no sense. Do you have an understanding of the individual sentences? Yes. Do you fully understand the art as a whole? No you do not. You are using the "no true Scotsman" informal fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Reality is, there is many ways to have that eureka/light bulb moment and kata is one of them but...its not the only way! With all due respect to your point of view I stand with my statement and believe it to be true. I am sure there are plenty of ways to have a eureka moment but I am talking about understanding the art that the founder created through his training and insights. I am not sure how a eureka moment makes sense in the context of my statement. Yes we as Karateka need to discover our own way but if you are not first shown the original intent you have no foundation to build from. Again I repeat my original statement, "if you do not understand Kata which is where the entire art is derived, you do not understand the art itself. 20 eureka moments do not add up to 1000's of proven applications. Again with all due respect I stand on my original statement based on my years of training in both traditional, Koryu and Modern day Karate styles. If you have a valid counter point that I have not experienced please share it as I do not claim to be an expert but merely passing on what my experiences have taught me. I may have misunderstood your point. Just to make sure we are on the same page, what your saying is, kata is about understanding the art as oppose to mastering? I will be honest with you, maybe my past is clouding my judgement but when I was a kid, I trained Shotokan and I remember on Friday nights, there was a very verbally abusive teacher that LOVED katas. I was not good at them and kept saying in front of the class "Are you stupid? "or he would ask if I was a slow person ( this site is very sensitive to language so I toned it down the "slow person", he used a different word which starts with R...) My disagreement is that Kata is the only or best way of understanding the art. Boxers shadow box, some judokas only do drills and randori and they develop mastery and same with various grapplers who are mostly about drills and sparring. One thing to mention, most Okinawan karatekas train in Hojo Undo and from what I have been told, they believe that Hojo Undo is the soul of Karate and every karateka should train in it. You are partially right in the first statement. However if you do not understand the art (what is contained within the Kata) you can not master the art as it was created. This does not mean that you can not master the physical aspects of the art. It simply means that you will not have a true understanding and therefor can not hope to master the art as it was passed down from the founder. Again just my opinion as it pertains to my years of training and the teaching passed down to me. In the second statement above... this explains where you are coming from. It sounds like your teacher was about the competition aspects of Kata rather than the self defense/combative aspects of Kata. More focused on snap and flashy techniques. If you had my experience you would see a different side of Kata. It's not all about hitting you mark everytime or snapping your Gi the loudest. It's about what the individual techniques and the combined applications actually represent and how to utilize them to defend yourself. If you are really interested find an old school teacher that is not interested in tournaments but rather passing on the art as it was passed down thru the generations as not only a "Do" but as a "Jutsu". A combative answer to an attack. I am using the Japanese terminology because that is what most understand today. (For Kusotare) If you watch the old instructors there were no flashy snappy movements. They concentrated on the effectiveness of the technique and visualize how it is applied while performing the Kata. In your third statement... you are partially right. Boxers and Judoka learn by more or less Kumite alone. However the techniques that are available to them are openly trained and shared with the participants. Karate is different in that each area (Shuri, Tomari, Naha) and each individual style and instructor had techniques that were unique and what they considered the soul of what made their art. These techniques for the most part in modern dojo's are long forgoten because they do not train in Kata and do not teach the Bunkai to their students. The Kata and it's Bunkai contain the teachings of not only the Quan Fa styles that said founder learned but also their own families Ti/Di (indigenous Okinawan combative art). If all you learn is Kihon and Kumite, all you learn is half of the art (and I'm being very liberal saying half). Yes Hojo-Undo is very important to training, however IMHO it is far from the soul. Again without Kata there is not art. If all you had was Hojo-Undo, you would be strong and have conditioned weapons without the knowledge of how to properly implement them. And again, I mean no disrespect to your experience in the arts that has made up your points of view. This is simply my point of view based on my experiences.

I disagree here. I don't think kata is a requirement or prerequisite for a Martial Art. There are many Eastern styles that do train kata, but I don't think the lack thereof means there is no Martial Art. I understand your point of view but I must point out that without Kata, which was and still is the delivery system for passing down the art, you would not have Karate. I understand that some arts are not passed down via Kata, Quan or even set routines. I guess my statement should have been there would be no Karate/Gung Fu without Kata/Quan. My point in fact is arts (lets take some modern day Karate styles) that do not teach Kata or only show their students Kata but do not explain what it is and how to extract the true intent of the art, but instead focus on Kihon (individual techniques such as blocks, strikes and kicks) and Kumite are not passing on the art but only a portion of it. Yes the argument can be made that one can learn the fundamentals through these practices but I argue that they are missing the true intent and the reason they are doing what they are doing. Kihon can only teach so much. Kumite without the foundation and understanding of the applications and how to utilize them will only teach so much. It is the Kata, and what they can and do teach us, that fills in the blanks and shows us what these other practices fall short of. I understand where you are coming from but you show me a Karateka that does not train in Kata and I'll show you a Karateka that fails to have a true understanding in the art. I'll go one step further and say I can show you a Karateka that is lacking in skills and knowledge of all of the applications and weapons available to him. Without Kata you can not IMHO truly have a firm grasp on the art. IMHO I will even go as far as to say without a true understanding of the Kata, one has no chance of mastering the art. This may not be popular with some modern day styles/schools but I have trained with some of these instructors and IMO they are lacking to say the least. Yes they can execute a perfect front snap kick or a back hand but are missing the glue that ties all of these techniques together and gives a broad understanding how to utilize them and when. Kata is like a book and Kihon are some of the individual sentences that make up the book. You have an understanding of what the sentence means but without reading the entire book they are pointless. Not to mention that you totally miss the other sentences such as the "hidden" techniques (Ti, Quan Fa, Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) that are not readily apparent. Without knowing the order of the sentences the book makes no sense. Do you have an understanding of the individual sentences? Yes. Do you fully understand the art as a whole? No you do not. You are using the "no true Scotsman" informal fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Reality is, there is many ways to have that eureka/light bulb moment and kata is one of them but...its not the only way! With all due respect to your point of view I stand with my statement and believe it to be true. I am sure there are plenty of ways to have a eureka moment but I am talking about understanding the art that the founder created through his training and insights. I am not sure how a eureka moment makes sense in the context of my statement. Yes we as Karateka need to discover our own way but if you are not first shown the original intent you have no foundation to build from. Again I repeat my original statement, "if you do not understand Kata which is where the entire art is derived, you do not understand the art itself. 20 eureka moments do not add up to 1000's of proven applications. Again with all due respect I stand on my original statement based on my years of training in both traditional, Koryu and Modern day Karate styles. If you have a valid counter point that I have not experienced please share it as I do not claim to be an expert but merely passing on what my experiences have taught me.

Update; Feeling bad about the outcome I tried several times to contact him to clear the air. I understood that I let my own feelings and disappointment drive my actions rather than to take an approach as a board member. I thought that my long time friendship with this man and the betrayal had dictated my words when talking to him. He did not answer any of my calls or e-mails. I received an email from him asking for a chance to explain his actions. He felt as though he owed that to the organization and to me and wanted a chance to clear the air. I petitioned our board of instructors to state his case. He has a meeting set up with the board next month. He has expressed a desire to come back. I have no idea what the outcome will be but I feel like he is acting like the student I have know for so many years. If nothing else he will be able to face his demons and put them behind him. Still have conflicting feelings but I do feel like he is taking a step in the right direction.