MatsuShinshii

Congrats Safroot!

Well put Sensei8. I get where you are coming from.

Does anyone train in Chinese wrestling? If so do you have any resources on it. I am researching this and am finding it difficult to find many resources. I have found a few things on line but not exactly what I am looking for.

I feel like I'm a teenager again watching Kung Fu theater on Saturday mornings. Does the story continue or is that the last lesson? I hate to admit it but I'm a sucker for parables and old Chinese tales. I used to buy Zen, Confucian, Buddhist and Shaolin stories because I loved the way it told a story but upon further reflection also taught a lesson. I love this stuff. We should have a section just for these tales.

I appreciate the kind words and also the advice contained. I find what you say very true. I am actually happier than I've been in years. It's like going back to before Shinshii devastated some of us with the news of his retirement. To me normalcy is teaching and helping others follow their path to personal perfection. I literally could not be happier doing anything else. I am holding a Kodansha training session this week end. It will be the first such session in the last 5 years. I am concentrating on the postures and applications of the Kata for the first 4 hours and switching to the ways of transmitting these applications to the students in a way that they get it. I get the greatest joy from seeing our Mudansha students the first time the applications are taught to them and the light goes off in their heads and they finally get it. To me there is nothing more important to the art as once this is discovered they are hooked just like I was 35+ years ago. The second best is when they reach Shodan and we interject the concept of analyzing different attack methods and looking at the postures and applying them to said attack with out the instructors intervention. We then have them implement this and allow them to discover what works and what doesn't and why. When they realize that each posture has a multitude of applications outside of what we initially teach them the light gets brighter and they are on their way to true understanding and inventive thinking. This is the first step to independence and realizing their personal path. At this point the instructor becomes less of an authoritarian and more of a resource that the student can utilize along their journey and the relationship changes. The student ceases to look at their instructor as someone that tells them to do things and more as someone that they can walk next to on their path. They are a resource and a guide rather than a drill instructor. At this point I feel the student grows more so than when totally under the control of their instructor. Most of our senior instructors understand the concept of this but not all have had the opportunity to experience the way Shinshii was able to pass this on to those of us that have had the privilege. My new mission is to keep this practice alive. My journey, other than the last five years, has made up the best years of my life and it is due to Shinshii's views of the teacher/ student relationship and how he passed the art down through his methods and his teacher's methods. If I can effect the way in which these methods are implemented, all of our students and instructors can experience this transition and the method in which it is transmitted will maintain the traditions I have lived my life by. Thus Shinshii will remain even long after he is gone. At least that is my hope. Kosei, who is our new president got to experience this not only under me but later directly under Shinshii and because of this he is now pushing me to pass this on. He feels that once the students experience this they will become our future instructors/seniors and ultimately carry on the traditions and the art to the next generations. I agree wholeheartedly and could not be happier in my role.

As I said I am an extreme traditionalist in terms of old school and years ago I would have told you that your art was not traditional in the terms of how you teach it. However there has been a surge in instructors trying to get back to the old school roots and discover the original intent of the Kata and most are utilizing what is readily available to them as the old ways were lost. Over the years I have come to realize that incorporating Jujutsu, Judo and other grappling arts is due to the fact that they can not find the original Tegumi techniques and applications and this has become a substitute. If the reason that you and others do this is to give your students a more well rounded method to deal with the different levels of combat I will not berate you for your efforts but instead commend you for it. It's unfortunate that so many arts lost the original intent (combat) while transitioning to the now accepted modern methods of teaching the arts. However I commend any instructor trying to give their students knowledge that can and will help them to deal with today's scenarios. God knows the grappling craze is the latest and greatest. Why would you not want to teach them something that addresses this? That and for a traditionalist like me you seem to place the main importance on the Kata which is were my heart lies. Do you utilize the Kata for teaching your students to Fight/Defend themselves? Due you teach the applications (Bunkai)? If you do you are probably more "traditional" than most.

Whoever is telling you that your Shorin Ryu is not real doesn't actually understand old school Suidi (Shurite) which is what Shorin Ryu was born from. Suidi contained grappling. Tegumi (a culmination of Okinawan wrestling and Shuai Jiao) was and still is practiced within old school styles of Todi (Karate). Tuidi (Tuite/Torite) which incorporates Qin Na (Chin Na) grappling was and still is practiced in old school Karate (To-Di). Yes many that do not understand or know the original techniques/applications found within the Kata will substitute with Jujutsu/Judo/Hapkido/Aikido/Etc. but they are more or less staying with in the original concept of old school Karate (I hesitate to use the word Karate because this word equates to modern rather than old school). Are they original? No. But the thing most modern day Karateka do not understand is that what the founders passed down was for all intensive purposes the first mixed martial art and incorporated more than just Kihon, Kata and Kumite. Side Bar - I think I need to clarify the last statement. They do not understand that old school Suidi Kata taught the practitioners how to fight. It contained more than just the movements and contrary to modern day beliefs, it was not utilized as meditation in motion or as just a means to learn how to move and to strengthen the legs. It contained many postures for which each represented many applications and still does which also consisted of the same or similar grappling applications that you are teaching. Suidi was made up of Ti'gwa which was a culmination of the indigenous percussive art of Ti (Hand) and Muay Boran which was the predecessor of Muay Thai, several Quan Fa arts to include Crane, Five Ancestor, Five Animal, Monk, Wudang, etc. which also incorporated Qin Na, Shuai Jiao and Dim Mak. Qin Na incorporated into Tuidi, Shuai Jiao into Tegumi and Dim Mak into Kyusho. All of which are found within the Kata. If you are utilizing Jujutsu, Aikido or Judo techniques (throws, sweeps, take downs, etc.) you are actually not far off. Many of the grappling techniques are similar and in some cases identical to the ones utilized in these arts. Some say this is because they all derive from Shuai Jiao (which is rumored to have been spead throughout the asian world to include Japan) and others say that this is due to Matsumura studying Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan. Just like the Okinawans and Chinese empty hand arts were practiced with the weapons arts. This was due to the fact that these arts were taught to the military of the time. It is thought that Matsumura also learned the grappling art of the time which I have been told was Jujutsu but this may not be correct. Either way the techniques are too similar to be just a coincidence. Ne Waza - even though there was not such a word then was also incorporated via Suai Jiao's ground techniques. So again even though these may not be the original applications you are staying within the realm of what is taught within the old school (original Suidi or To-Di) arts. I would venture to say that the ones that are condemning you for not being strict to Kihon, Kumite and Kata have not the first clue of what they are talking about. For Modern Karate I would say yes they are correct that you are outside of what they perceive as traditional. However their definition of traditional does not describe what is truly traditional and came before their traditions. Let comments like that fall off of you like rain on a slicker. Trying to explain what traditional is would be akin to banging your head against a concrete wall. You just will not get through. If you are brought up thinking something is right, others are very hard pressed to get you to see another way. For all intensive purposes, they are not wrong. If you look at the history of Karate from it's inception. (meaning when Suidi or To-Di changed to Karate) they are correct in thinking that it's traditional. Because for their art, the minute it became Karate it also became traditional in the sense that they had formed new traditions and new methods. So you I guess you could say they are right. But who cares? Teach what you want to teach and let the naysayers say whatever they wish to. It neither effects you or your students.

So I guess I'll give a few updates... Shinshii was pretty upset with our previous associations President and board and decided to evict them from the Hombu. He still owns the building and was renting it to us. The way I heard it was he gave them until the end of the month to leave. In the mean time he offered it to Kosei, our new president, for the same price. In another post I mentioned that we had Yudansha testing in the Hombu. This was were that testing took place. Our organization finished our bylaws. It's half the size of our old association bylaws and pretty much puts all of the important issues in stone unless a vote of 100% of the student body is caste. My life is much less politically aggravating now and I'm thoroughly enjoying my duties as Soshi. I have gotten to meet and train with our student body and our instructors and do not see myself getting bored of it any time soon. Basically I'm doing what I have always wanted to do which is teach. If I have any complaint it would be the traveling and losing my weekends but this too will get better as I am just making rounds to every school. In the future I will only do this once a year unless there is a necessity for it. Our new patch designs were sent to the student body for a vote and was chosen. Our student and instructors manuals have remained the same except for the cover which was changed to the new name and logo and was sent out to the student body last week. Other than that, I have not been bothered with board meetings, trivial disputes or for that matter even heard from the board members except during the testing cycle. Life is good. Our old president is however threatening to sue us for brand infringements and steeling his student body. However our lawyer tells us that these are just idol threats and has no basis to bring these accusations as he did not own the branding, Shinshii does and we changed our branding so there is nothing to sue over. As far as the student body leaving him, he would have to prove that we somehow forced them to leave with us which is impossible to do since they came freely. I doubt I will have much more to contribute to this or to report on unless he actually takes us to court. I doubt this will happen as his lawyer will most likely advise against it so this chapter in my MA life is over and I'm moving into the next. The grass IS much greener on this side.

Welcome to the forums RyannMMA.

I see nothing wrong with having supplements as long as it does not take away from your main purpose and main art. If this is extra to your art and does not take away time allotted from your main art, then I see no issue.

Done. I don't see how this has anything to do with MA. It reminds me of a survey to identify whether you are liberal of conservative minded.

Love the story Alan. Reminds me of starting out when you did not ask questions you just obeyed. Sooner or later you begin to realize that what you might not understand is actually working. I love old stories that are handed down. They have a message that writings today just do not convey in the same way. Thanks for sharing.

Understood. Do you require this and do you think it is needed? I have not and will not ask any of my current students to get a release but I am seriously considering it for new students. This whole thing has got me thinking about the liabilities of not doing it and as someone mentioned a liability release, as I currently use, may not hold up in court. God knows this country is sue happy.

Ouch! I need to go to my doctor to get a release to teach now. I guess that's what I get for asking a question. Honesty that stings. Yeah, but it's YOUR dojo. Who are you going to sue? Yourself? I sued myself last night and won. Or did I?

To the bold above. I absolutely understand where you are coming from with displays of achievements but I must point out that, at least for me and my peer's, the pictures of those that came before us is not used as marketing or as decoration but rather as respect for them and their teachings. It's a remembrance of their contributions and a thank you for the art that was handed down to us. A sign of respect. I know you did not mean it this way but I felt compelled to interject this for those that might not yet understand why the founders and those that came before in the lineage line are hanging on the Dojo wall. I did not want young Mudansha to get the impression that they hang there only as a means of promotion, marketing, or as mere decoration to fill space.

Patrick, You make it hard to stay in the non-tek world my friend. Those are compelling arguments for having a website. I did not have a clue how easy it was nor did I know about the sites you mentioned. I have no idea if they will go for the website or not since I no longer sit on the board but I am seriously considering this for my self and my dojo, if for no other reason it would be an easier way than phone, email to get information out to my students and the schools I oversee. Great info! Thank you for taking the time to post, I really appreciate it and you definitely taught me something.

They were all scheduled to test prior to the gobbly goop that went on within our previous organization. That all got put on hold for approximately 7 months for the average but when we decided, due to prodding from our student body, to form our own organization, grading's where at the forefront and was made a priority. Since I no longer have to deal with the politics or sit on the board it was easier for me to just set a date, organize enough instructors and make it happen. Since Shinshii was renting the Hombu to us (old organization) we were able to take it over when the previous president made Shinshii mad and decided to throw them out. This made it perfect for me to hold grading's as it has plenty of room and I was bale to get enough volunteer instructors to sit for testings. Typically we only have one to two Yundansha testing but there is the odd occasion that we get more but those are typically Shodan grading's. But to your point, yes it was quite an undertaking and my body still feels like I tested for a grading even though all I really did was observe. Sitting for three days should be easy but those stiff uncomfortable chairs really create havoc on my body. I can say that I do not want to test a variety of grades like this again. To say the least it was very difficult to really observe enough of the students performance as I would have liked too and had to primarily rely on the other instructors opinions and observations. Lesson learned through trial and error.

I can not take all of the credit as only one of these is my direct student. I can also not take full credit as there were 12 other instructors that sat on the testing boards and helped me with scoring and observations. We have four testing area's within the Hombu or should I say two Dojo's that we split in half to make four testing areas. The Shodan and Sandan were in one Dojo and the Nidan and Rokudan were in the other. Three instructors sat on each testing board and I oversaw all tests and bounced around between them but mostly concentrated my time between the Shodan and Sandan testings as these are our bench mark grading's and take more time than other ranks and are closely scrutinized. Shodan takes on average three days to complete, as it is a total culmination of the Mudansha curriculum. The student must be very proficient in all grades from Hachikyu to Sankyu and be proficient in Nikyu and Ikkyu. They must have a very good understanding of the postures within the Kata and understand and be able to show the applications of each (Bunkai). They must understand the history and be able to answer questions without the aid of the student manual. They must be able to dominate Ikkyu and hold their own against Shodans and they must be able to go three rounds against Nidans without quiting. Essentially they must re-test all of their previous grades, fight one grade down and two grades up (how ever many show up for the testing, but typically 10 of each minimum), demonstrate proficiency and understanding of the applications contained within the Kata's to their grade level and understand the history, terminology and traditions of the art. It is the hardest grading we give. Sandan is done over time with observations of the student teaching classes under the supervision of his instructor, they must write an essay on three subjects (they have the choice of subjects that they can pick from a list), They are given a written test under the direct supervision of their CI and finally a one and a half to two day physical test to include the curriculum of their grade (Kata, applications, curriculum) and teaching grades senior to their own (typically the testing board instructors). Our Sandans are basically taking two tests, one for the grade and one for the title of Shinshii (Sensei). If they can prove that they are capable of passing on the art in a concise and coherent manner they are awarded the title of Shinshii. Note: the title is not guaranteed at Sandan or for any rank. We do have a few that hold the grade but not the title. Not all can teach. The Shodan and Sandan tests started on Friday morning. The Sandan tests finished Saturday at 10:00am and the Shodan tests finished on Sunday at 2:00pm. The Nidan test took 4 hours on Saturday and the Rokudan test took 5 hours on Sunday. Our new Rokudan will have the chance to return in a year to a year and a half to test for his Renshi teaching license. I re-read my post after some of the comments and realized I made it seem like I pulled this off by myself. This could not be more further from the truth. The truth is I would have to clone myself many times to pull this off. I was just the senior testing instructor and merely oversaw the testings and oversaw the instructors administering the tests. I guess you can say I spent three days jumping around. Sit/observe, walk to the next, sit/observe, walk to the next, repeat for three days. About every 15 minutes I went from one to the next but as stated previously I spent the majority of my time between the Shodan and Sandan tests. Once the testing instructors tallied the results, I met with them to discuss their results and interjected my own observations then approved or denied the grading's. We did have one student fail miserably for Shodan. He barely held his own against the Ikkyu grades and did far worse against the Shodan grades. We did not even ask him to participate against the Nidan grades as we did not want to see him get hurt. I spoke with his instructor and was told that he probably choked under the pressure but assured me that he was more than ready prior to the test. This is the very reason that Shodan is scrutinized so vehemently. We do not oversee Mudansha gradings but leave this directly up to the CI's. It's only when the CI sends their students up for Shodan that we get to see what their students level is at and in this we can gauge the instructors themselves. This is the first of this particular CI's students that has tested for Shodan. I will be visiting his Dojo to observe a few of his classes and, if needed, offer guidance and or assistance. All in all it was a good Sunday when I got to announce the results. There were a good many proud instructors knowing their students passed and the students were pretty stoked as well. I love this part of teaching.

I am pleased to announce that I conducted our first testing cycle for our new organization. Of course all would have been tested under the old organization but still an achievement. I promoted 1 Godan to Rokudan, 4 Nidan to Sandan, 2 Shodan to Nidan and 3 Ikkyu to Shodan this weekend. It was a good day. We started on Friday and concluded on Sunday. Funny how worn out you get watching others test.

Absolutely agree with your statement. All of my old cert's and licenses are in my file cabinet in my study but if I were to display them all it would be at home.

I agree with Sensei8. I display only my current grade certificate and teaching license. There comes a time in which, as Sensei8 stated, it becomes vanity. It you are now a Godan, everyone knows that you had to pass your Yondan, Sandan, Nidan and Shodan test to obtain your Godan. So there is no reason to display these unless you are trying to create a shrine to yourself. The same is true for licenses or titles, if your organization gives documents or certificates for these. If you hold a Kyoshi teaching license there is no reason to hang a Renshi next to it. Common sense tells others that you have obtain this in order to get to Kyoshi. This can go much farther and become as stated earlier, a Shine to you. Humility is one of the many tenants of Karate. Showing off every award you have received since you started could be perceived to your students that you are strictly in this for your own personal gratification and not for the betterment of your students.

This was the reason I asked. I agree that my personal medical history is my business and no one else's as is the case in most businesses. How then do you know if you do not ask and in asking does this not put the student in a awkward position if there is something there but they do not want to divulge it. This is the conundrum in whether to require a release or not. However I would think that the doctor could ok the student for training or not without divulging personal information on the release form. Be it a simple box that is checked yes or no.

That was a very in-depth explanation. I appreciate your knowledge of the subject and I'm very impressed with the depth of your knowledge on the subject. Even though I have never studied this art I think most have an appreciation for it through TV, movies, books and magazines. That was a very interesting and informative read. Thanks for posting that.

Thank you for the explanation. I find value in this and will actually be trying this out in training to see if this works. I appreciate this information. I know that this month has been... hectic for you to say the least, but I would be interested in hearing what your results with the pell were if you get a chance.If you've read any of my last few posts, you will hopefully not take what I say next as an insult or disrespect for the knowledge you have shared with me. I actually have not had the opportunity to delve into this with my students as of yet. I have however made a, weapons Makiwara, if you will but have not gotten around to actually employing it in actual practice. I will being testing this with my students to see if it has favorable results as you have stated. No matter how it turns out I will definitely let you know. I appreciate your knowledge on this subject and hope you understand why I have not yet tried it. No disrespect was intended I can assure you.

To the bold type above... Spot on.