MatsuShinshii

Welcome to the forum.

I have not actually heard this before. The color of thread is controlled based on your grading? I thought that was what the color of the belt was for.

Thank you for your explanation Spartacus. I was asking Wastelander based on the fact that he stated they learn all kata before Shodan. I was interested to know how many kata they learn and how long it takes to achieve Shodan grading. I find the idea interesting because every style of Karate I have taken or know about continues kata after Shodan. I would love to understand the benefits and down falls of this practice.

Agree with both you and Spartacus. Out of curiosity how many Kata do you have before Shodan? I know you train in Shorin Ryu (Shobayashi-ryu?) and others so I am very curious how many Kata you learn prior to your Shodan grading. How long on average does it take to grade to Shodan? I agree with both of you about the number of Kata. We only practice 16 Kata and with Bunkai this is a good deal of a life time of study. However we learn the Bunkai as we learn the Kata and also learn two man drills along with them. On average it take 5 to 7 years to grade to Shodan but some students take longer. Along with Spartacus we learn Passai at Shodan. There are seven Kata that we learn prior to Shodan and the remainder are learned by Godan. We do however have 11 Buki'gwa (Kobudo) Kata as well.

Kenpo is a Japanese term for Quan. I believe it mean fist law or law of the fist but it's been many years and can't remember if that is right or which is right. I do however know that the term was used instead of the Chinese term Quan.

Hit the nail on the head.

On appearances I would agree wholeheartedly. However there is one thing you are failing to understand. If you look at 90%+ of Okinawan arts, non of them look like Chinese arts. This is primarily because they are not Chinese. The Okinawan founders were not just influenced by the Chinese and because of this they interjected not only the Chinese arts but also their own and others that had prior influence. One other thing to consider is the fact that tradition was to make the art your own. Each subsequent teacher put his brand so to speak on the art. There were subtle changes to the Kata as they were passed down from one to the next. Even within the same school the Kata was or could be taught slightly differently from one student to the next. The argument that "since it doesn't look exactly like this it must not be" isn't valid unless you can with utmost certainty debunk it. The Kata that was taken directly from the Chinese Hsing is even different from the way it is performed in China but if inspected closely one can see the connection. The applications (Bunkai) are another place to look for comparisons. Do I buy into Bai He Quan being the main Chinese art that influenced Toudi? No. I would not even put it into the top three, but there is definitive proof that it did influence Shuri, Tomari and especially Naha Toudi. You need not look further than the multitude of Crane techniques within the different Kata. If crane had little to no influence there sure are a lot of techniques and applications that now have no explanation of how they got into so many Kata.

I have just looked at a map of okinawa and japan and they are 1000 of miles apart! how can karate be influenced by okinawa or china? japan is closer to korea and russia. i would say tkd is more likely influence of karate. as for russia i don't know want they do. pink TKD was influenced by Shotokan Karate. Japan did not influence Karate prior to it being brought to Japan by Gichin Funakoshi who was Okinawan. I am not sure where you are going with the closer to Japan idea but I think you still think Karate is a Japanese art.

To the first point... wikipedia is not exactly the end all truth to anything. Yes Bai He Quan is one of the main Quan Fa that influenced what we call Karate and so did five ancestors, five animals, Lohan Quan just to name a few. You are unfortunately under the understanding that Karate is a Japanese art. It did not come from Jujutsu or Judo. Karate comes from Okinawa. The term Karate however is Japanese. Toudi (Tang or China hand) was changed to Karate (Empty Hand) to appease the Japanese who hated everything Chinese. Since Chinese martial arts had a vast influence on the Okinawan combative arts most, if not all, Okinawan Bushi called the art Toudi or was termed after the area it came from like Suidi for Shuri, Tumaidi for Tomari or Nafadi for Naha. However it was not, as some would suggest, a Chinese art. There were many influences before the Chinese arts such as Siamese Boxing (Muay Boran) and not to mention the indigenous percussive art of Ti and the grappling art of Muto (Tegumi). Many Westerners have a skewed understanding of the art and this is not the first time that I have heard someone claim that Karate comes from Jujutsu or Judo. This is of course impossible as what we call Karate pre-dates Judo and the predecessor of the name Karate which is Ti was definitely not influenced by Jujutsu. Some however have suggested that Ju Jutsu influenced Karate in some respects because Matsumura "Bushi" Sokon lived and studied Kenjutsu with the Satsuma and it is very plausible that he learned or at least picked up some Ju Jutsu during his time of study. Some suggest this because a few of the throws, take downs, joint locks and submissions within the Kata, which we call Muto (Tegumi) are very similar or exactly the same with minor differences as those practiced in Ju Jutsu. However based on my research I would debunk this as I have found that these same techniques are contained within Jiao li or what is now called Shuai Jiao (Chinese Wrestling) and also within Quin Na or Chin Na (Joint Seizing and Manipulation). This actually leads me to believe that Ju Jutsu was influenced by Chinese arts due to the fact that Jiao Li (Di) predates Ju Jutsu. Either way Karate in the sense of pre-japanization of the art has nothing to do with Japanese arts and especially Judo and most likely Ju Jutsu although there are small comparison techniques as stated before, which again can be debunked. Karate today in most modern arts is heavily influenced by the Japanization but this does not change the fact that Karate or Toudi is not a Japanese art in terms of creation. The Japanese had no influence on Toudi up until the time Gichin Funakoshi introduced it and its name was changed and the techniques and Kata's were changed to suite the Japanese ideal of the arts at that time. Old school Karate (Toudi) is a combative art based on the indigenous percussive art or Ti, the grappling art of Muto, Siamese boxing and Chinese martial arts to include weapons. Nothing about Toudi was ever influenced by Japan. It's the direct opposite. Toudi was well received by Japan and so much so that they decided to make it their own and coined the name we all know today as Karate and changed the way it is practiced. In doing this they also lost the main intent of the art which is combative in nature. The Kata and two man drills being the main focus was replaced by Kihon and Kumite in modern terms. Kata was (is in some arts) the focus. It was practiced loosely and the applications that the movements or postures represented where focused on in two man drills. The intent was to teach the practitioner to fight. Today's focus is on sharp, crisp and snapping techniques and how well they look and sound rather than on the function of the applications the Kata represents. No! Karate is not Japanese other than the name.

If you have tools and the ability you can just make them to fit you. I had a store bought pair but never liked the feel so the subsequent three pair I have owned, I made myself. You can customize the size, type (square, round, paddle, etc.) and what it is made from (oak, walnut, iron wood, osage orange, etc) and it is very easy if you have access to the right tools. Even if you do not have access to a lathe you can make a round tonfua with an oak hand rail. They are roughly 1-1/2 to 1-3/4" so they would work. Or just by square or rectangular blanks of wood close to the length you want and cut them down. You can shape your handle with a drill and sanding disk, again if you do not have a lathe. Where there is a will there is a way. If not, like others have said, cut the ones you have down to the proper size. For the handle, it depends on how it is attached. If it is fitted and has a peg or pin you can remove and just file/sand it a little higher, cut off excess and re-attach. If it is glued in place then as others have described, cut it in half and drill each half to fit a peg and glue together. I'm sure if you look hard enough someone else has had this problem and most likely posted a vid of how to correct it. Good luck.

All old grade certificates, Obi (belts), etc. are in the closet collecting dust. The only grade, Obi, awards and the like that matter is the present ones you have earned. This was brought up in another post about displaying "ALL" of your certifications. I feel this is more of an ego thing personally. However if you want to display them you definitely can. As far as old weapons... it depends. If you have small children around the best place for these are in storage or under lock and key. If not I see nothing wrong with displaying them. Many display Daisho in their home/Dojo or have their favorite weapon prominently displayed. For me displaying all of the belts and awards you have ever been given is just for the gratification of your own ego. If you are presently a Sandan then everyone with any background in the arts knows you wore all of the colored Mudansha grades, Shodan and Nidan Obi's to get to your present grade. Why display them since it is obvious that you had them to get where you are now? What reason, other than to make your walls look more impressive, is there for displaying them? The same goes for displaying every grade certificate you received. If anyone ever asks it's easy to pull them out of a drawer or closet and show proof. Just seems a little self serving and egocentric to me. If you have gradings in other arts I could see displaying them. However mine are in the same place my old certs and obi's are. Having expressed my personal opinion, you earned them so you can do as you wish. This is just my 2 cents.

Yes but you have been teaching for a long time and that is not changed by turning 60. You are not starting over in a new art, you are continuing your journey in your art. The only thing that changes is you are not in the same town, do not have the same governing body and you will have new students. When I started Judo my instructor was 70+ years of age (He told me his age but I can not remember the exact age he said) and yes at first I wondered if he was the right guy but that changed the first time he threw me around the Dojo. His technique was excellent. Age is a number and you are only as young or old as you feel. If you have been training non-stop for 52 years then the students that see your age will soon realize that it was wrong to judge you for it. If your heart is in it, do it.

I thought bunkai was application of kata performed together with at least one training partner. Thank you for such a reassuring reply Bunkai is breaking down the Kata to it's core applications or series of applications. Kihon is the individual technique extracted from said Kata/Applications for the purpose of perfecting that one technique. An example of this would be Gedan Barai. Within the applications (Bunkai) this is a throw, balance break, strike, brush, trap, etc. For the purposes of the modern practice of Kihon this is a lower block and is practiced as such. The height, angle from the body and method of delivery are strictly adhered to. Bunkai is not this way. As we know that any technique could be thrown at any height, angle, and the method of delivery can vary as well. When you speak of breaking down the Kata I took this as the study of the Kata, which is Bunkai, Bunseki and Oyo.

Bob, I would have to cry bull on this one. Age has nothing to do with it. The longer you are in MA the more knowledge you obtain. If that were the case my Shinshii or for that fact his Shinshii couldn't teach. We all get old and the older we get the smarter we become. Technique trumps strength. On the few occasions that I was able to learn directly from my teachers Shinshii, I wasn't thinking about how old he was (68 the 1st time and 83 the last). I didn't see age because the old guy could kick my you know what. That and his knowledge of the art far out weighed his age or the potential physical obstacles his age presented. Technique, knowledge and skill trump youth when it comes to teaching. Your not a professional fighter and nor do you need to be. Your a teacher of the arts. Who would you rather learn from, a 30 year old Sandan or a (insert age above 30 ) old Nanadan? Sure the Sandan has youth and physically better looking but the Nanadan can wipe the floor with him in all categories. Better yet, would you rather learn from the founder of the art if he was in his 80's or a 30 year old Sandan that he taught. I'll take the first hand knowledge every time. Age is just a number. It doesn't negate the knowledge you have obtained over x number of years.

How about doing away with the honors and titles and just be an instructor of the arts? Seems to me that you are done with politics and Hierarchy so why not just teach? The bottom line is your students know who's in charge based on knowledge and skill level and the very fact that you are the Dojo owner. So there is no need to have a Kaicho unless you wish to have your own organization. Maybe you need to start your own organization of you style to lend legitimacy to your grades. If that is the case then run it by yourself as the Kaicho (if the title is needed) but if not why not just teach and leave the politics behind you?

I was told by my Shinshii at a recent seminar that many of the techniques we use in Tegumi comes from Shuai Jiao. He knows that I have been researching many of our Kata's applications and one part in particular (throws and take downs) have been very hard to research. I was always told that these came from Qin Na but in my research I have not been able to find the connection. What we call Tuidi fits into Qin Na not Tegumi. They are similar in some respects to Judo but are executed slightly different. In talking with him and one of or arts Okinawan seniors I was told to look at Shuai Jiao for answers. Unfortunately finding the exact throws, sweeps, and take downs is very difficult because there is not a ton of info out there to research. That is not to say I have not found a few in watching the few Youtube vids I could find but finding more than a handful of examples has proven very difficult. I am also not looking for the competitive sport examples. Do you have access to throwing, sweeping and take down applications that you could share specifically in Shuai Jiao? If so PM me I would love to see them. The deeper you research an art the more elusive it becomes and the more questions you end up having. Any help would be much appreciated.

I can take what I give. Unfortunately the older I get the more I have to take and the less I give. Not fair. As I have said before I was taught old school so I believe in hitting and getting hit. In fact this very point is why I had my knee blown out by one of my students. I feel that if your going to teach someone how to defend themselves you have to get physical and that does not mean slow speed or a game of patty cakes. Having said that, the older I get the more I rely on my knowledge and techniques rather than brute force and speed. Other than conditioning my weapons I do not do much body conditioning. Better left to the young. The old you get the longer it takes to heal and the worse you feel the next day. Tough does not translate into proficiency and does not make you a good fighter. It just means you can take a punch. I'll take skilled and intelligent over rough and tough any day of the week.

My understanding is that sports medicine is both preventative and restorative. Basically they teach you how to move, the stretch based on the activity, anaerobic vs. aerobic training for said activity to prevent injuries and the same to strengthen and get you back to your activities after you injure yourself. But since this was not a big thing when I was a kid, I'm just going off what I have heard from others.

I hear that!

This is by definition Kihon or a Kihon drill. Many styles incorporate the bare bone techniques, isolate them and practice them to perfect the movement and the body to achieve power in the technique. It's also utilized to observe students and to make corrections. When talking about breaking down the Kata you are talking about it's Bunkai. the applications or series of applications that the individual techniques make up. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. In fact a lot of styles utilize this as part of their class instruction. A style of Karate I took as a child list these as Kihon in motion as apposed to stationary Kihon. You essentially shift in a chosen stance while performing the technique (strike, kick, etc), usually forwards, turn and back to the starting position. Your building muscle memory through repetition.

Sounds like someone was embarrassed. Having said that, Bunkai is meant to make you think and respond according to the specific attack unless its basic "generic" Bunkai. Not everyone kicks the same or strikes the same (speed, angle, technique, power, etc). Just because you strike at a specific height in the Kata does not mean anything in most instances. I would have took the opportunity to adapt to her kick and effect a slightly different response and if she said anything then I would point out that she was not being a good Uke. This is how we learn. The one thing I hate about modern Karate is the boiler plate "strike like this height, angle, speed, power, etc.". You will be hard pressed to find the same way of striking on the streets so why practice this way? You must adjust to the attack and if one application does not fit the mold utilize another or just adjust it to work. Nothing is perfect in a fight. It's messy. Why train clean? All you end up doing is building muscle memory and when the time comes and that perfect strike doesn't happen, you get clocked. Not you specifically it's more of a general observation that your post brought to mind.

Welcome to KF.

Welcome to KF.

As in so many other posts it comes down to Modern vs. Old School (pre-japanization which is why I did not say traditional as they use this word a lot to describe Karate). Most modern Karateka do not understand that Toudi and Buki'gwa were practiced hand in hand with each other and that each complemented the other. Today Tegumi, Tuidi (Tuite, Torite) and Chibudi (Kyusho) are taught as a separate class. You even have a few that have made arts and curriculum out of one or two of these as if they are a stand alone art. Dillman and his Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu comes to mind. Why would you expect that Buki'gwa (Kobudo) would be any different? Modern vs. Old School. Whatever did not fit into the ideal curriculum was caste aside and discarded.

You are correct that he is executing the first movements incorrectly. Having said that you don't know why he is doing this. Instead of TELLING him, you as a student should ASK him. To presume that you know something when you don't comes off as rude to an instructor. However approaching him and saying that you have seen Unsu being done this way and asking him why they do it differently (Notice I did not say why he is doing it differently) is far less rude and as a student he/she expects you to ask questions. As your instructor he/she has an obligation to explain to his/her students what he/she teaches. However if you tell the instructor he/she is wrong you may be the one that gets embarrassed because there may be a legitimate reason he/she is doing what he/she is doing. He/she may know full well that it's not the way to execute the Kata but they may be doing it for a reason. My guess is to see if any of his/her students is paying attention. There is nothing wrong with approaching your teacher to ask questions. Having said that there is nothing to say that you'll get an answer. Always assume that they know what he/she is doing until they prove that theory wrong. Never presume. Ask.