MatsuShinshii

I have not actually heard this before. The color of thread is controlled based on your grading? I thought that was what the color of the belt was for. I know, I quoted you twice for the same post, but they're different ideas... I also don't understand why in some organizations different ranks wear different color gis, have different color trim on their gis, different patches (especially black belt club, instructor, and master). Doesn't the belt itself pretty much say all that? I'm ok with it for the little kids if it motivates them and all, but adults? Should an adult get an "awesome kicks!" patch? Do school aged children need honor roll patches on their gis? I see them in catalogs, so I know they're out there. There's a local TKD school that allows students to buy gis (dobaks?) with trim on the lapel and stripes on the pants that matches their belt. That's not just for black belts either. Why? Are they fashion conscious and want their gis to make their belts "pop" or something? It's more likely a way to sell the students more stuff, but still. I'm a fan of everyone wearing an all white gi (or all black if that's the tradition). School kanji and logos either embroidered or on as patches, and that's pretty much it. No huge logos and school names on the back, no multi-colored gis or "demo team" special gis, etc. I guess I'm old school, being 41 and all I'm with you on the patches, multi colored gi's and the like. Our Mudansha wear all white Gi and what ever color Obi they have been grade to. Once they reach Sandan the white Gi top is replaced with a black Gi top. Black belts are black. Embroidery doesn't matter. We wear one patch. We don't teach kids under 16 so I guess a multitude of feel good patches and multi colored Obi and Gi's are not needed. I think it comes down to ego really. All of the additional displays of rank and achievements go hand in hand with the multitude of titles and special licenses these days. I have seen special self defense certifications in some credentials on line. ??????????????? I thought that was what we were teaching. You get additional self defense lessons that warrant certification beyond the art of SELF DEFENSE????????????? Bottom line... EGO! "Look at me strutting like a peacock with all of my special patches, muti-colored gi, special Obi, etc, etc. This shows I am better than you because you don't have these." But what do you expect from a society that gives trophies for losing? Everybody is a winner! Pretty sad. I like your post. I guess us old stuck in our ways guys are a dying breed. We wear all white gis. Seido Juku kanji on the left chest part of the gi, and our organization's logo (Nakamura's family crest; plum blossom) on the left sleeve. That's it. Yondan (sensei) and up usually have their title embroidered in significantly smaller kanji under the Seido Juku kanji. When they're promoted to yondan and up, they're given a new gi with their title embroidered on it. I know a guy who trained at an American Karate school. They wore whatever gi they wanted, and even put whatever patches they wanted on them, so long as the patches were appropriate (didn't say master, weren't Girl Scout patches, etc). Their rationale was who cares what you're wearing, just train hard. I respect that, but I just couldn't ever do it. I saw a group picture of those guys in their gis. It gave me a headache after looking at it for about 10 seconds. Could not agree more. I usually scratch my head in disbelief when I see some of the "adornments" put onto gi's. I personally love the multitude of additional belt options these days. I can kind of see it when it comes to little kids but when you see some funky belts on adults it really makes you wonder. I especially love the camo belt. Don't get me wrong, I love camouflage. I was in the Marine Corps and I'm an avid hunter so I spend ever fall in camo but I just can't see the reason behind this belt. Did they kill a deer with a flying side kick or fight off a pack of ferocious wild turkeys? Maybe they defeated a band of Ninja. I miss the days when you had white belts and black belts. I would even return to the days when we added the green and brown belt to the Mudansha grades sort of like Matsubayashi Ryu. Less is more and it definitely takes the pressure off of America's fast food mentality of earning the next shiny thing. We incorporated quite a few years back a belt to signify your teaching license (Not Renshi). I can leave or take it to be honest. I also miss the days when a black belt meant something. With all of the different types of black belts, mutli colored black belts, and a hole assortment of other colors a black belt is a dismiss-able belt and means next to nothing anymore. I guess I am old because I definitely do not get the whole million patches, 50 different belts, multi-colored Gi's, and every title known to man type of thing. It takes away from the skill and knowledge of the practitioner and places the spot light on the adornments. I was researching a style of Karate that I had never heard of because someone mentioned it and saw a picture in the google images that caught my eye. It was kids wearing SO MANY patches you could not see their Gi under them. When did an art meant for combative self defense become a fashion show? When did trophies, patches, or the latest fashion fads trump actual accomplishment? You know... gaining actual knowledge and skill that takes years of blood, sweat and tears. The kind that you look within yourself to find instead of the kind that is advertised on you like a walking talking billboard. In the end all of the adornments in the world mean nothing when you are on the streets and you actually have to use what you have learned. All the FLASH in the world won't help you then. Just an ego trip IMHO.

I agree. The instructor decides what grade to give and places them where its appropriate based on knowledge and skill.

And THAT is the proper response! When joining another art/school/club/organization, the instructor will decide where you fit in. To wear your previous rank is presumptuous at best, down right disrespectful at worst. If you have never taken the art, have not graded in the art, and have little knowledge of the art why would anyone assume that because they are a certain rank in one art it automatically transfers t the new art. The respectful thing, the humble thing to do is exactly what you just said. Leave your black belt at the house and enter as what you are, a beginner. Walking in to someone else's Dojo and into a different art wearing your BB is nothing short of stroking your own ego. I say get over yourself and start as anyone else would, as a white belt. If you are skilled and have knowledge you will climb the hill to Yudansha faster than your fellow Deshi anyway. The instructor knows what you were in your previous art. You don't have to flaunt it.

Must be a typo. I have seen it spelled Ti and Di in Okinawan and Te or De in Japanese but never Tee. Must admit I found the spelling to look odd also... Anglicizing oriental words can be spelt any way that gets the sound across (therefore it isn't a typo) what is most important is the meaning above all; agreed? How many different spellings are there for the style of Wing Chun? Apart from spelling preferences, how did you like or dislike the documentary? I'll accept that but would add that whoever spelled it that way probably has no knowledge of the Okinawan or Japanese language or of the art itself. This is definitely a western spelling by sounding it out. They did not know that "i" is pronounced as "e".

Spartacus, is correct. Peasants did not create Toudi (Karate). A farmer/peasant could not afford to travel to China to train nor would they have access to the Chinese emissaries. Since we know that Chinese Quan Fa contributed to Toudi(Karate) this refutes the argument. Ti and Muto (Tegumi) were a product of the upper military class and the arts that were merged with these were a product of the Aristocratic classes (Chikudun, Satonushi, Pechin, etc.) not the commoner class which included farmers, fishermen, laborers and the such. This is purely a romanticize theory of western Karateka. Just like the Samurai of Japan or the Knights of England, the noble class of the Ryukyu kingdom were the warriors and were afforded the opportunity to learn martial arts, writing and the like. Oh and other than Kiwa and Eku, Buki (Kobudo) weapons were not a product of farm or common implements either. Just in case this would be the next topic for a history lesson.

Agreed. The order of the Kata's learned are also different from some schools within the same style. Some styles teach Naihanchi to lower Mudansha grades and some teach it to Nikyu or Ikkyu grades. Some teach Useishi (Gojushiho) at Ikkyu and others teach it later in the Yudansha grades. Our first Kata at the Shodan grade is Passai. Others may teach this Kata later or sooner. JR 137 is right in the fact that you should be asking your school what the Kata's for Shodan and above are rather than asking others from other styles as this will not help you with your art. Some arts have Kata's evenly spread out so that all grades have Kata requirements and others do not teach Kata past a certain grade such as Godan, Rokudan or Nanadan.

What you say is true Spartacus. The Okinawans were influenced by many countries and thus their martial arts were as well. What I know of the history of Okinawan martial arts is as follows; The Okinawans had their own indigenous arts which we know as Ti and Muto (if in Shuri) which most call Tegumi. They traded with the Siamese empire prior to China, Korea, etc. During this time and as you have already stated martial arts were part of the noble classes culture and as such Muay Boran and other fighting methods (most likely from Annan [Viet Nam] and Burma) were incorporated into the Okinawan's fighting methods. China played a huge role in both trade and cultural exchange. The Chinese sent emissaries to Okinawa and vice versa. We know based on what little documentation exists that Okinawan's like Matsumura traveled to and trained in Southern China and learned their arts. During this time Okinawa also traded with Tiawan, Korea and other countries and with the information we already know it is very plausible that the Okinawans exchanged culture and martial arts with these countries as well. You could say that Okinawa was a cultural sponge. The Japanese also had some influence on the Okinawans and their fighting method. We know this because Matsumura trained with the Satsuma and learned the use of the sword (Kenjutsu) among other weapons and most likely their empty hand arts like Ju Jutsu. The point I was making was that, yes, these cultures influenced what we call Karate but Karate can not be contributed to one or the other. This is because the Okinawans like Bruce Lee's famous quote took what was useful and incorporated it into their art. One can not contribute Karate as Chinese or Siamese or any other countries origin. It is uniquely Okinawan. I was also pointing out that it most certainly can not be attributed to the Japanese unless you are talking about "Modern" Karate. It was brought to Japan and pretty much dumbed down to what you see today for two very distinct reasons. One the Japanese hated all things Chinese. Toudi (Karate) at the time had major influences from Quan Fa and this did not match the Japanese vision. Two the Japanese wanted everything to fit into a nice little package and Toudi at the time did not. It was taught differently from one teacher to another and there was no set consistent group of techniques from one style to another. It also was a combative art and did not fit into their ideal of Kendo, Iaido, Aikido, Judo, etc. This is not to lay blame on the Japanese for the loss of combative applications. Itosu removed or disguised all combative application long before it was introduced to Japan. However the introduction changed the art further into what we now call Modern Karate or Karate Do. Yes the art has been influenced heavily by the Chinese arts but one can not call it Chinese. To do so would be to ignore the original foundational arts of Ti, Muto and later the Siam influences among others. It is for all intents and purposes the first MMA. Cross training before it had a name. You can whittle it down to the individual techniques and arts like, Muay Boran, Jiao Di (Shuai Jiao), Qin Na, Ti, Muto, Quan Fa, etc., that created it on the microscopic level and see that it can not be considered primarily one art or another. When you consider that all of these arts were merged into one you can only come to one conclusion... it's uniquely Okinawan.

Hair is a definite disadvantage in a real no rules fight.

I have never thought of modern Tai Chi as a combative art although it is a martial art (thus I guess combative at least in nature). The issue I have with the statement that MMa is out to prove that Chinese martial arts are not effective or are "fake" is that MMA is a sport and sports have rules. The whole premise that Chinese martial arts is not as effective as another shows a lack of understanding of the history of martial arts. You can pretty much trace most martial arts back to Shaolin. I am not a Chinese martial arts practitioner and have no stake in defending their arts but I would bet that the Tai Chi practitioner is not the best that they have as most highly ranked and experienced practitioners do not tend to have the need to prove their prowess. This does not in any way take away from the MMA fighter. And again, maybe it's just me but Tai Chi vs MMA would not be the match up that would come to mind. Maybe Wing Chun or Fu Jow Pai or maybe San Shou or Shuai Jiao or a Shaolin monk. Tai Chi? Maybe this is my own ignorance or lack of knowledge of the art but it definitely is not the first Chinese art that comes to mind when I think of a hard core combative martial art.

I have not actually heard this before. The color of thread is controlled based on your grading? I thought that was what the color of the belt was for. I know, I quoted you twice for the same post, but they're different ideas... I also don't understand why in some organizations different ranks wear different color gis, have different color trim on their gis, different patches (especially black belt club, instructor, and master). Doesn't the belt itself pretty much say all that? I'm ok with it for the little kids if it motivates them and all, but adults? Should an adult get an "awesome kicks!" patch? Do school aged children need honor roll patches on their gis? I see them in catalogs, so I know they're out there. There's a local TKD school that allows students to buy gis (dobaks?) with trim on the lapel and stripes on the pants that matches their belt. That's not just for black belts either. Why? Are they fashion conscious and want their gis to make their belts "pop" or something? It's more likely a way to sell the students more stuff, but still. I'm a fan of everyone wearing an all white gi (or all black if that's the tradition). School kanji and logos either embroidered or on as patches, and that's pretty much it. No huge logos and school names on the back, no multi-colored gis or "demo team" special gis, etc. I guess I'm old school, being 41 and all I'm with you on the patches, multi colored gi's and the like. Our Mudansha wear all white Gi and what ever color Obi they have been grade to. Once they reach Sandan the white Gi top is replaced with a black Gi top. Black belts are black. Embroidery doesn't matter. We wear one patch. We don't teach kids under 16 so I guess a multitude of feel good patches and multi colored Obi and Gi's are not needed. I think it comes down to ego really. All of the additional displays of rank and achievements go hand in hand with the multitude of titles and special licenses these days. I have seen special self defense certifications in some credentials on line. ??????????????? I thought that was what we were teaching. You get additional self defense lessons that warrant certification beyond the art of SELF DEFENSE????????????? Bottom line... EGO! "Look at me strutting like a peacock with all of my special patches, muti-colored gi, special Obi, etc, etc. This shows I am better than you because you don't have these." But what do you expect from a society that gives trophies for losing? Everybody is a winner! Pretty sad.

Welcome to the Forum.

Sounds like a good opportunity.

White belt. If you, after a period of time, decide he is at a certain grade based on knowledge and skills you can grade him up at that time. But that is up to you and your organization. Extending respect to him by allowing him to continue to wear his belt as a beginner in your art is disrespect for your art. If it hasn't been earned he's not worthy of it. The issue here isn't whether he is a Yudansha or not. It's whether he is graded as a Yudansha in your art/style/system. He is not. Issue him a white belt and allow him the courtesy and respect of learning your art just like any other student would so he can EARN the grade he wears. Being a Yudansha in another art does not make him any better or deserving of grade than any of your other students. If he wishes to join your class he can join as a white belt and earn his grading just like anyone else would. If I started a new art today I would wear a white belt out of respect and the fact that I am not a Yudansha in that art. To presume that a grade transfers is not a trait of a Yudansha/Kodansha. If he expects to maintain his grading then IMHO he is not worthy of teaching.

Hit the nail on the head. Great analogy JR137.

Well I hate to disagree but Bai He Quan is very much apart of Karate. It is one of the many Quan Fa that influenced the art. The main reason most do not readily see the comparisons within the Kata is because most do not have a grasp on the history of Toudi (Karate) nor the Okinawan's as a people. Karate is the first MMA if you will. The Okinawan people collected any combative method that they found useful from many countries and many arts. The indigenous art of Ti was similar in many respects to boxing. Muto or Tegumi as the Japanese call it is a grappling/wrestling art. Muay Boran or Siamese boxing influenced Ti by incorporating many of their techniques and applications. Later Chinese martial arts like White Crane (Bai He Quan), Monk Fist (Lohan Quan), Five ancestors fist and five animals fist just to name a few all contributed to the development of what we call Karate. The reason it does not appear exactly like one style or another is because it's not just that style. The Kata is a mixture or melting pot if you will of many forms of combative arts melded into one. The Okinawan people are not Chinese. They respected the Chinese but they are not Chinese. So there fore they will not fight like the Chinese just like they do not fight like the Siamese or the Japanese. Toudi (Karate) is an art unto itself. It doesn't look like White Crane because it's not White Crane. It incorporates elements of White Crane but it's not just White Crane. Just like it incorporates elements of all of the other influences. You can plainly see the elements of the different Quan Fa throughout the Kata if you do the research. hey MatsuShinshii: thank you for that. What you wrote is really interesting. You say the okinawan people are not chinese, would you say they are not japanese also, even though okinawan is a part of japan?( I might be wrong on that part) pink I would say that. Okinawan's are not Japanese. In fact they were an independent nation (Ryukyu Kingdom) ruled by their own king up until they were annexed in 1879 by Japan. Up until this point they ruled their own people and were independent of Japan and China, Minus the time frame that the Satsuma invaded and subsequently held the Ryukyu kingdom under military occupation, but even during this period Ryukyu was ruled by an Okinawan king.

I have to agree. In watching this and other Eishin videos I would call it shadow boxing as well. I do however like the fact that they utilize take downs within the kata and drills but have to say that it does not resemble what I have been exposed to through the years. Interesting though.

Correct, this is a myth.

Must be a typo. I have seen it spelled Ti and Di in Okinawan and Te or De in Japanese but never Tee.

Well I hate to disagree but Bai He Quan is very much apart of Karate. It is one of the many Quan Fa that influenced the art. The main reason most do not readily see the comparisons within the Kata is because most do not have a grasp on the history of Toudi (Karate) nor the Okinawan's as a people. Karate is the first MMA if you will. The Okinawan people collected any combative method that they found useful from many countries and many arts. The indigenous art of Ti was similar in many respects to boxing. Muto or Tegumi as the Japanese call it is a grappling/wrestling art. Muay Boran or Siamese boxing influenced Ti by incorporating many of their techniques and applications. Later Chinese martial arts like White Crane (Bai He Quan), Monk Fist (Lohan Quan), Five ancestors fist and five animals fist just to name a few all contributed to the development of what we call Karate. The reason it does not appear exactly like one style or another is because it's not just that style. The Kata is a mixture or melting pot if you will of many forms of combative arts melded into one. The Okinawan people are not Chinese. They respected the Chinese but they are not Chinese. So there fore they will not fight like the Chinese just like they do not fight like the Siamese or the Japanese. Toudi (Karate) is an art unto itself. It doesn't look like White Crane because it's not White Crane. It incorporates elements of White Crane but it's not just White Crane. Just like it incorporates elements of all of the other influences. You can plainly see the elements of the different Quan Fa throughout the Kata if you do the research.

Since I first posted this I have watched way too many Bunkai application videos to count and most I wish I hadn't ever seen because I think they killed off a lot of brain cells. My point in starting this post was simple. I wanted to bring attention to the fact that there are differences between combat effective and basic or even made up very ineffective Bunkai. The precursor to any real application is effectiveness. Simply put - does it have the potential to stop the fight? Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of legit video's out there and very legitimate instructors. In fact you can tell that some of the basic Bunkai are being performed by very proficient instructors. I guess it's good since 20 years ago most Karateka did not even know what the word Bunkai meant unless you were in an old school art that taught them. However I do think its worth letting the, would be student watching these videos or even the Yudansha doing research, know that there is a difference between time tested combat effective applications and basic or even made up applications. If you are going to study Bunkai I think you should study actual Bunkai. So I guess I should end this post in asking another question... if a new student (let say with prior training in another martial art) were to ask you what videos to watch (specific to the instructor or style) what would you tell them? I will give a shout out for Wastelanders (Noah Legel) videos. Love some of your other videos by the way as well. Not all are what I have been taught, but for the videos I watched they are effective and he and his teacher (?) do a nice job of teaching the material. Didn't know we had an internet start on the forums. I think I spent an entire night googling, reading and watching vids after I found the first video. Very insightful. You have a new fan. I will mention one other that I found during my mind blowing youtube journey, Iain Abernethy. Even though I have never heard of this man or know what style (he teaches a lot of different styles as far as I can tell) he teaches, he does get you to think in terms of possibilities. He demonstrates different methods for the same application in some videos. And even though some are not fight enders the vast majority are very legit and effective. I would definitely recommend his videos.

You may be right. However there are ways to identify real combat effective applications. If you are a serious student looking for combat effective self defense you would want to know how to identify real effective applications? Someone tells you what to look for.

Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum.