JohnnyS

goshinman said "Not to long ago a guy was on here bragging about how he whooped a TJJ brown belt and a black belt after he had only had 5 lessons in BJJ ." I wasn't bragging, I was pointing out, using that example, that BJJ and TJJ are not the same thing. There is no way you could do that to a black belt or even a blue belt in BJJ after 5 private lessons. It's not about being arrogant, it's about being truthful. I'll readily admit that there are some good TJJ schools out there but they seem to be in the minority whereas all BJJ schools seem to be of a consistent quality. The original question on this thread was "I'm just curious, if you will find much of a difference between the two?" I answered yes and gave an example of why. I don't need to brag, but why should I not say that and mislead the guy? There is a LOT of difference between BJJ and TJJ.

I know that shotokan master Kanazawa used to also train in Tai Chi and thought it an excellent complimentary art.

Definately BJJ. Rick Spain who was a former world full-contact kung-fu champion and is a great WC guy, now trains in BJJ with my instructor, John Will, and now has it as part of the curriculum for his schools. See this article from his website where he talks about integrating his WC with BJJ: http://www.wckfo.com.au/article_16.html

I used to get in a lot of fights when working as a bouncer, but I haven't been in a fight since then, nor did I get in any fights outside work.

What would it prove though? The people most likely in that club are normal people with kids who want to learn a little bit of self-defence. They'd probably think you're just a bully. I understand how you feel, but it honestly wouldn't make a difference.

From the ground up, Why don't we challenge these schools and do something about it? Because there is a thing called the law which is supposed to stop people assaulting other people. I learnt long ago that most people won't change their mind, no matter how good your logic or how concrete your evidence. They've either invested too much time in what they're already doing, or don't really want to train hard.

There's a whole bunch of omaplata sweeps, as well as the gogoplata that I've never seen in any Judo or JJJ book. Look, your argument could be said of boxing and karat - karate has a jab, cross,hook and uppercut, but that doesn't make them the same thing. The difference is on the emphasis, the training and the set-ups. The final technique may be the same, but the set-ups and transitions are different. Anyone who has trained in both systems will say the same thing.

I've been to a couple actually. I've also had friends go to another TJJ school with the same result. I maybe stereotyping, but it's my experience of what happened, and there's no way that someone with five sessions would go into a BJJ school and have the same result that I had or my friends had. Look, I'm sure that there's some good TJJ schools, in fact I know there is. But they are not the same as BJJ schools, they don't teach the same things and you won't get the same results.

In my experience, TJJ train a little bit of everything but never really succeed at getting really good at anything. They'd get out-thrown by a Judo player, and tapped by a BJJ-player. The main difference (and their main hindrance) seems to be the lack of competition in TJJ because their techniques are so "dangerous". They also seem to have a superiority complex i.e they believe their throws are better than Judo throws because they throw their opponent on their heads etc. I was a white belt in BJJ and I'd had five private lessons and I tapped out a black belt and a brown belt in TJJ. The instructor was pissed off but didn't take up my offer to grapple funnily enough. There's no way in hell that could happen in a BJJ school to anyone who'd even been training for six months, let alone be a black belt. They'll tell you that what they do on the ground is exactly the same as BJJ, but they can't back it up. There is a big difference between BJJ and TJJ. Train both and you'll see the difference in the first class.

I was worried that my post might not sound correct. First of all, being good at karate does not mean you're a good fighter. Secondly, you don't need to learn karate to be a good fighter. My point was that real karate involves kata. If you're doing karate that doesn't involve proper kata and bunkai, then it's just bad kickboxing. I'm not saying kickboxing is bad - I'm saying that karate that is seperated from kata and bunkai generally looks like a poor excuse for kickboxing. In which case you'd be better off going to a proper kickboxing class. I'll use kyokushin as my example - I think it's a poor form of kickboxing. It doesn't teach the kata and the bunkai like Okinawan styles do, and the sparring may be tough and hard, but so what? I'd tell someone to go to a good kickboxing class over a kyokushin class anyday, because at least they'll learn to punch to the head, defend their face and spar properly. I see little that kyokushin teaches that you couldn't learn better in a kickboxing school, but I see a lot in Goju and other Okinawan karate styles (that focus more on self-defense than "fighting") that you don't see in a kickboxing school. Kickboxing would obviously be a better choice for a fight in the ring, but for fighting in a bar I think that a lot of what you learn in an Okinawan school of karate (i.e. real karate) is very effective, especially the footsweeps, elbows, headbutts and other close-in fighting. Read my signature Andrew - I no longer do karate or TKD, I now do BJJ and used to do shootfighting, so I'd never slight those arts. Do I think karate is the best thing for fighting? No. Do I think kata is necessary for fighting? No Do I think fighting is different from self-defense? Yes What I am saying is that kata is a tool and if you don't learn the bunkai properly, then there's no point in doing the kata. If you're not going to learn the kata and bunkai, then why do karate? Why not do something that will teach you better habits?

Kirves is extremely correct. I did Okinawan Goju-ryu where we learnt the kata and the bunkai. Kirves is also correct about the stances which seems to be a much-misunderstood thing in the martial arts world. Even though we did a lot of kata and bunkai, and not a lot of free-sparring, when we did it was very similar to the kata in the use of stances and techniques - unlike in TKD where it was always the high bouncing around stance along with techniques that have nothing to do with the katas. Stances in free-sparring would include the cat-stance, horse-riding stance, forward-stance etc because as Kirves said, they are just a snapshot of where your feet should be when you perform a technique e.g. forward-riding stance when you complete a pushing movement. It's like if you try to push a car, you're going to be in a forward-stance. You move back to avoid a strike and before you drive in again off your rear-leg you'll be in a cat-like stance. Often times we'd get kyokushin stylists come in and get pounded in free-sparring because they've essentially lost all connection with what the kata's mean and what karate actually is. So that should show that the training does work. Can you become a fighter without learning kata? Of course, but it's not real karate. It's just really bad kickboxing. If you're going to go down that path then you're better off learning from a competent kick-boxing instructor.

That's such a broad question to ask - it's like asking "How do I win?". There's no simple answer to your question because: *What type of guard are you playing? *Where are your hands and feet? *What is you opponent doing? *What are you trying to do? Stop him from passing, sweep him, get his back, submit him? My suggestion is to buy a video - Michael Jen's videos are good, or ask your instructor.

Focus pads are excellent, especially if you're working with someone who knows how to use the pads. You get to work your combinations, your accuracy, you get to work your timing, ducking and weaving, your covers and all the while you get resistance and feedback. I've heard of a few boxers who will not work on a heavy bag, they only use focus mitts. The only problem is that you need a partner who has good skills holding the pads. I guess I was lucky in my instruction, because I've seen a few personal trainers at the gym lately giving the worst advice for punching and hold the pads in ridiculous ways, including holding the pads two feet apart - who has a head that big?

Just so you know, I no longer train in goju or TKD. I moved on to shootfighting and BJJ, but I'm glad my first arts were those two. I've seen some really bad TKD, but the school where I trained in the 80's was a very hard school with an excellent instructor. We didn't jump around with our hands down - our instructor was a big guy who would literally knock your block off if your hands weren't up. Training in Goju was a real eye-opener. The depth of the art is only something I feel can be rivalled by BJJ. The amount of streetfighting tricks I learnt was both incredible and invaluable - from how to headbutt and defend headbutts, to standing grappling and striking, to the mental toughening from "arm-pounding", etc. I've seen a lot of karate styles and other martial arts and I always say that for streetfighting and self-defense techniques, Goju is the best art I've seen. In fact, although I only do BJJ now, I still teach some of the things I learnt in Goju, especially if someone asks me about techniques relating to self-defense.

I've got a black belt in TKD, and trained for several years in Okinawan Goju-ryu as well as a few classes of Shotokan karate so I feel I'm well qualified for this question. TKD is basically Shotokan karate but with more of an emphasis on kicking (obviously). The reason I say it's shotokan is because the class structure is quite similar, ie. warm-ups, basics, one-step and three step sparring,kata and free-sparring. The kata in the two arts is also practically identical. While TKD and Shotokan are very similar, there is a big difference between TKD and an art like Okinawan Goju-ryu as TKD is generally taught at kicking range and Goju is a close-in art. While I have met and trained with many amazing martial artists and fighters from both styles (two of my TKD instructors were simply awesome fighters), I feel that Goju has the edge when it comes to fighting and self-defense. Here's a few reasons why: Goju teaches close in fighting like headbutts, knees, elbows and sweeps. I know TKD teaches knees and elbows, but since you're never in that range you don't get a chance to do them in sparring. Fights start at arms-length, which is perfect for Goju, but not so good for TKD. Goju training is harder and geared more towards fighting, not just looking good or have nice snappy kicks.

You need both. If you only have “hard” then you’ll have problems coming up against someone bigger, stronger and harder. If you have “soft”, then you can redirect attacks etc. I do BJJ and sometimes I will go hard against someone but if they’re a lot stronger or more explosive than me then I go very soft, let them over-commit and take advantage. You can’t win by going hard against someone who can go harder.

When I did Goju I already had a black belt in TKD, and my goju instructor was also a bouncer so he showed me a few tricks that were very handy. As far as BJJ - depending on the school of course - in nearly the first class you’re taught how to do a rear-naked choke from behind. None of the techniques I used as a bouncer required a lot of skill or expertise, so if you’re interested in learning that stuff the best bet would be to get a private lesson or ask your instructor specific questions on those types of techniques. One bit of advice though – stay away from wrist locks. Too hard to put on –especially if the guy is sweaty – and pain compliance techniques don’t work on people who don’t feel pain e.g. they’re drunk, high or pissed off.

In my experience from bouncing, I found elements from BJJ and Goju-ryu helped in these sorts of situations. I could control someone and if they got out of hand I'd choke them unconscious. That way no-one's hurt.

Obviously kali/escrima/arnis or Krabi Krabong would be the best art for the situation that John G mentioned, as these are knife-based arts. How about this situation: Your friend is drunk and starts becoming violent. Which art is the best art now ?

I've been choked unconscious - I asked my BJJ instructor to do it to me when I first started training so I would know what it felt like.It's actually quite pleasant. You go to sleep, have a very vivid dream and wake up not knowing where you are, how you got there, who anyone else is. This only lasts for about a minute. I've been doing BJJ for 12 years and apart from the one time I asked to be choked I've never gone unconscious in training or competition. At the most I've seen stars and felt woozy.

I’m not saying BJJ is invincible, what I’m saying is that Shotokan karate does not prepare people to fight against BJJ. What BJJ does well is play the odds. The odds are: (i) You won’t be able to stop the clinch, because it’s always easier to close the distance than it is to create distance (ii) You don’t train to defend against a clinch, or a double-leg takedown (iii) You won’t knock someone out with the one shot you might get in because the BJJ player will be moving in when you’re off balance, or moving in too fast and you don’t practice punching someone who’s head is moving in towards your body at speed. (iv) Once the fight hits the ground, you don’t know what to do and you’re right where the BJJ fighter wants you. Also, a note on your defenses: a)A double-leg takedown is not a tackle, with the person running blindly forward, arms out, head down in a zombie-attack. A proper double-leg is done from arms-length, and usually off something else such as a kick or another tie-up to get you off-balance, and with the back straight, head up and arms in. Because it is done at such a close distance, stepping back out of the attack is not viable (otherwise wrestlers would do that rather than sprawl against each other). B) Grapplers get swept and thrown and taken down all the time, so it’s hardly likely they are going to knock their head on the ground from a foot-sweep. At least, it’s not something I’d want to rely on.

If you're talking strictly striking arts, then I believe the boxer will have the advantage. If it's striking vs grappling, then the grappler will have the advantage, unless the boxer is a lot stronger, bigger and better conditioned, and can make the grappler plays his game.

Sorry, I don't believe you. Are you saying that when you train at a martial arts school the instructor registers your hands with the police? Tell me where this happens.

Shotokan_Fighter, You say you wouldn’t get taken down so easily, but what would you do to prevent it? I used to think along the same lines as you do until I was shown the light. Here’s one way in which the grappler can take you down (although this is more of a BJJ approach): 1) Stay just outside your range and wait for you to commit to a strike. 2) As soon as you commit, then either shoot in for a clinch or double-leg, or block/evade your strike and wait for when you start to retract your limb. So let’s say you’ve thrown a front kick and now the grappler blocks it. As soon as your leg starts coming back, or dropping to the ground he moves in and you have no base with which to launch a powerful strike, and only one leg on the ground so you don’t have mobility. 3) Once he has clinched he’ll have his arms around your waist, pulling your hips into him, and keeping his head tight against your body. By pulling your hips in he arches your back and takes away your balance, and without balance you can’t throw a powerful strike. Even if you could throw a powerful strike, his head his buried tight against your body, so you can’t get leverage or a good shot in. 4) He keeps pulling your hips in, hooks one of your legs with his and trips you, ending up on mount. Don’t take just my word for it, try it with some friends. That’s how I worked this out before learning BJJ and grappling properly. Myself and a bunch of black belt friends from different styles including TKD and karate would get together in my backyard and one person was allowed to kick, punch and knee etc as hard as he wanted and the other guy was only allowed to grapple. The grappler won every time. The striker might get in a shot, but not hard enough to knock the other guy out (and we were trying!), and although we got a few black eyes and fat lips at first, it didn’t affect the outcome at all.

Of course, but if you're in close enough to throw punches, then the boxer will have the advantage. Lennox Lewis would nearly have arms as long as Bruce Lee's legs, so Bruce would have to be careful even moving around and just throwing kicks, and LL being so much bigger would only need one good cross to land to KO Bruce Lee.