JohnnyS

Fireka, So you're saying that a boxer wouldn't stand a chance against a martial artist? Have you ever fought, or sparred a boxer? Those guys are fast, have great footwork and hit really hard. They also know how to fight dirty with elbows and headbutts. A boxer would give any martial artist a good run for his money, if not a beating.

I think boxers have the size, strength, conditioning AND the SKILLS to defeat probably all martial arts "masters". If you're talking about Lennox Lewis, he's 6'6", 257lbs at his fighting weight. He’s got a power, reach and weight advantage over the people you mentioned, as well as the fact that when he’s sparring he’s sparring full-contact, and fighting, some of the best fighters in the world. I don’t know why, but there seems to be this asian myth that a small, skinny guy can beat someone bigger and stronger, even if they are equally skilled. Size matters, it’s that simple.

You do not need to register your hands as a lethal weapon. Apparently it's an urban myth. If you do indeed know of somewhere that requires you by law to register your hands as lethal weapons, please let us all know where and any accompanying information.

Mick was a 2nd degree black belt, at a time when it took over ten years to get your 2nd degree. So he had plenty of skill as well as power.

Xerziz, Why should we prove that BJJ is a martial art? You’re the one making the statement that it isn’t a martial art so the onus is on you to back up your statements. BJJ has 3 components, Self-defense, sport and Vale Tudo, so how can it not be a martial art? BTW, karate, judo, or tae kwon do all have tournaments, so why are they different in your definition than BJJ? Really, you’re making no sense.

Sounds like my old TKD instructor, Big Mick. He was 6'5", 320lbs and there were a few black belts that broke their arms trying to block his kicks. If he hit you, your ribs or nose broke, even when he went light. He once knocked out 11 guys in a pub who were brawling because they kept bumping into him and spilling his beer ( I was told this by two different sources who were there). Another time he took on seven bikies who fled after he knocked out the first one so quickly. Does that mean Big Mick is the greatest martial artist ever though? I doubt it. I think Mas Oyama was good, no doubt, but he would have met his match fighting someone like a heavyweight boxer such as Foreman, or Frazier etc. Or how about a wrestler such as the Great Gama, or Hackenschmidt or Gotch?

Who did he ever fight though? He fought some minor challenge matches in America, but no named fighters. If he was serious about proving what he could and his art could do, why not fight a top boxer in a NHB type match (like the Savage-LeBelle fight), or win a world Boxing title?

I think he was obviously a very good martial artist and very tough, but not the greatest martial artist ever. How do you define "greatest martial artist ever" ?

I think Kyle-san knows a whole lot more than you. Go to https://www.bullshido.us and download the BJJ vs Shotokan karate video and tell us what you'd do differently to the karate black belt.

WarpSpider, Sorry buddy, you've got it wrong. A choke cuts off the air, a strangle cuts off the blood. A good strangle will not stop the person breathing. People in BJJ call strangles "chokes", but very rarely do they actually do a choke instead of a strangle because: 1) A choke takes longer to make someone unconscious 2) People who can't breath think they are dying and so fight back a lot harder than if they are being strangled where they only feel some pressure on their neck before going out. Tensing the neck will not stop a proper strangle because you can't stop the veins and arteries in your neck from being compressed. I've choked maybe twenty different people unconscious in either training, competition or fights. As I said, it usually only takes 9 seconds at most to choke someone unconscious, generally only 2 or 3 if they're fighting and drunk. If you can't choke someone unconscious then you're doing it wrong - simple as that. As far as breaking someone's arm, sure it's not the end of the world, but most people will stop simply from the shock. Even if they do keep fighting they're only fighting with one arm, so why do you think they're going to do any better with one arm than what they did with two? Your postings show that your knowledge of grappling is very limited. Go to a BJJ or Judo school and I'm sure you'll learn differently.

I couldn't see a picture on that website. If the rope is under his jaw and going around to the back of his head then it's a trick involving great strength. It doesn't mean he can't be strangled. Please explain to me how someone could train their neck to not be strangled. How do you stop the veins and arteries from being compressed ?

Northren Ogre, Your advice was both good and funny

sansooser, I still don't see how he could avoid a strangle. Some people are born with their jugular and cateroid hidden deeper in the muscles so maybe he was lucky enough to be born like that, but I don't see how you could train to avoid a strangle. What Farmer Burns was doing was probably a trick. I'm sure he had a lot of muscular strength in his neck to do this, but it still would have been a trick. Again, the bigger the neck, the easier they are to choke.

From my experience in being in fights and seeing them whilst wokring as a bouncer, the three most common attacks are 1) a punch 2) a headbutt 3) a tackle Of course this could be cultural, for example in Australia and the U.K. headbutts are pretty common, but I'm not sure about the states. Also, from a study by the University of New South Wales in Australia, done on common reasons for fights in bars, they were : 1) Spilling someone's drink 2) Bumping into someone and 3) Looking at someone's girlfriend. If you're really interested in this side of fighting, get the books or videos by Geoff Thompson from https://www.geoffthompson.com His books and videos are excellent and present what few other people tell you - the psychology and physical aspects to a fight. Geoff explains about adrenaline, how to use it your advantage, and how to use adrenaline in your opponent to your advantage. One of the things that Geoff explains that is extremely relevant for martial artists is to hit first. You DON'T wait for the guy to throw the first punch - you have no legal or moral obligation to do so - before you defend yourself. If you wait for him to strike then you'll be on the back foot from the start. You should hit first and hit hard. You should also have a technique that you know will work everytime and have set-ups for it e.g. a right cross or left hook. There's a lot of bad advice on this thread. Do yourself a favour and go to his site and do some reading. I'm not affiliated with Geoff in any way, although I do have three of his videos and from my own experience recognise just how good what Geoff is teaching.

sansooser, Don't confuse muscular strength with the ability to not be strangled. The bigger the neck, the easier they are to strangle - no matter how tough or high or drunk they are. Oh, and it should usually take 9 seconds at most to put someone out. It depends on the choke and if the person is drunk or fighting. If they are drunk and fighting, and their body is in oxygen-debt, then it will usually only take around 2-3 seconds with a rear-naked choke in my experience.

It does pose the question though, if two "WC masters" don't do WC in a fight against each other, then how applicable is it for the normal person, or don't these guys have enough faith in their art to use it ?

The fight between Cheung and Boztepe was appalling. It was hardly "grappling" at least not by any decent standard.

stephen lee posted:"a rising knee can contact the face of a low charging opponent much faster than 2 hands can controll a fast rising knee" When you shoot a double your hands should be up in front of you, not out to the side. Also, even if someone connected with a knee it doesn't mean that it will knock the shooter out. Oh, and by lifting your knee you've just put yourself on one leg, so you've lost a solid base and the momentum behind the shoot means you're going to end up on the ground anyway.

It's a cheap move that won't work on someone with good abs or someone good and will only wear you out. Why not spend your time learning proper submissions rather than doing this? I've had people try it on me and it was annoying, but nothing I was going to tap to.

All styles can work in the street. The street really does depend on the person, more so than style against style. If you're a hard SOB who doesn't mind getting hurt if you can dish out more pain, then you'll do okay.

As far as fighting someone bigger, again, I'd much rather take them down and finish them from mount or knee-ride. Most people have no idea what to do on the ground and a bigger guy on his back doesn't have leverage or the power to do any damage from this position, whereas standing he's a real danger, evn if he knows nothing. Regarding mobility from here, knee-ride (or knee-on-belly) is a perfect half-way position. It allows you to choke, armbar or strike your opponent and still retain mobility.

Martial_artist, I understand where you're coming from, and agree that added with another striking art, BJJ will be more effective. However, I disagree that by itself BJJ is not an effective art for self-defence. The Gracies have used BJJ in fights in Brazil for many years. If there was such a big hole because of the lack of striking don't you think they would have changed the art? I have used pure grappling when working as a bouncer to win fights, and I know of other people using pure BJJ in fights who have no other martial arts experience, and winning, even against multiple opponents. Personally I'd rather knock someone out standing, but I know that I can also win using pure grappling, and that BJJ by itself does have a comprehensive self-defense system - as long as you train it.

While you are in the guard, what's to stop someone from hitting you in the back of the head with a iron bar while you are busy contending with the guy on the ground? Nothing, but what’s to stop him hitting you on the back of a head whilst you’re standing? Why would you want to take an opponent to the ground when, while busy with him, you are completely susceptible to outside attack: you are on the ground. How about if the guy is bigger than you and you know that one hit from him would knock you out? How about if he’s bigger and you know that his strength and power is reduced once you put him on your back? There are many times when using standing grappling is beneficial such as: 1) He’s on drugs or alcohol so that no matter how hard you hit him it won’t stop him, yet a choke will. 2) He’s a friend or family member going crazy and needs to be restrained, not given a broken nose or jaw to stop him. 3) You need to remove someone from the premises. 4) He’s grabbed you already One thing to remember is that on the ground a fight isn’t going to last 30 minutes like a UFC match. We have beginners (and students and instructors of other styles) come into our BJJ class and they are tapping on the ground in seconds. Two or three seconds on the ground isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Also, from fight experiences I’ve seen and heard about, if two people end up grappling on the ground, the mates of one guy won’t step in too quickly because they don’t know what’s happening or think their guy is winning, or they are in shock and just watching. To break an arm quickly and get up straight away hasn’t been a problem for these guys.

Guys, I know who Bas is. That's why I had the j/k at the bottom of my post (it means "joking"). Thanks anyway.

You're required by law to only use as much force as necessary. That may seem vague, but if you knock someone down then stomp on their head you can get charged with "assault with a deadly weapon", if not worse. In the eyes of the law, kicking someone when they're down is just as bad as stabbing them. So be careful. You should end the fight, not seek to punish the guy and deliberately put them in hospital.