JohnnyS

Renzo Gracie Ko'd Oleg in an event called MARS. Oleg was in Renzo's guard where Renzo did a heel kick right under Oleg's jaw knocking him out. Keith Hackney put up a good fight standing against Royce before Royce armbarred him from guard.

Martial_Artist, what's your basis for your statement ?

It's always easier to defend against a submission than apply it successfully. Also, most of the Gracie's aren't great athletes (which makes their victories more impressive), so when you get guys who learn how to counter the BJJ game (which is easier when you're only wearing fight shorts), and who are Olympic level wrestlers i.e. incredible athletes, then it's going to be hard for anybody to overcome them.

BJJ does have good standing techniques, but it depends on the instructor. A lot of people, especially the advanced guys, won't want to go over it. If there's a beginner class at the school then they might, but you can always ask the instructor. If he knows people are interested in it then he'll probably have no problem teaching it to you.

I feel dumber for having read this thread and want the last 5 minutes of my life back ! Oh, and please ignore ZakariRu as it is obvious he is a troll.

Who is this Bas Rutten that you speak of ? j/k

Ilustrisimo Kali.

Kickboxing would improve your punches and kicks, especially if it's a good school.

Somebody needs to be the head or "face" of an organisation. Others will disagree on the choice of this person, or the direction they are taking the art and feel their way is better. If two or more people are the same grade then there will be disagreement over who who head the organisation and politics will inevitably become involved. It's the nature of Man.

What you need to realise MuayThaiFighter, is that a lot of people honestly don't care about being the best fighter.I used to be similar to you when I was young (although not-quite as gung-ho), but grew out of it. When you're young you want to prove to yourself (and others) that you can fight, so you do it either in the ring or on the streets. I worked as a bouncer for 7 years in some rough clubs, got in plenty of fights and have also competed in tournaments and MMA events. Now I'm at the ripe-old age of 32, my body doesn't cope quite as well with so many injuries and I just don't feel the need for it anymore. Nor do I see the need to denigrate other people and their arts like you're doing. One of the best arts I studied for street-fighting was also one of the most traditional arts - Okinawan Goju-Ryu. It contained in-close fighting (including knees which it didn't get from Thailand ), elbows, headbutts and stand-up grappling. Was the stand-up grappling as sophisticated as wrestling ? No, but it still worked on guys in pubs and clubs. So maybe you should learn to be a bit more civil, a bit more understanding of why people train, and learn a bit more about other arts before you denigrate them. You might also want to learn more about your own art before spouting what you believe is the Gospel e.g. Thai-boxing having anything to do with ancient pankration.

They are different, although BJJ has had a significant impact on submission grappling. If you look at the early pancrase and shooto tournaments, there was pretty much no guard skills. When BJJ started to take off due to people like Rickson and Royce Gracie, the need for guard skills became obvious and was integrated into submission grappling (at least the Japanese version). There are a few different types of submission grappling though. Some BJJ people who do all no-gi work call it submission grappling. The catch-as-catch-can guys call their art submission grappling and the Japanese submisssion grappling guys (who were also heavily influenced by Catch) call their art submission grappling.

How did you get there ? Any submission is going to be hard to get out of, if not impossible once it's on. The trick is to escape when they're trying to put it on, or better yet, never allow them to get near a submission.

On the ground or standing ? If you're stnading then lift your arms straight up and drop to the ground onto your butt.

TJS, I understand what you're saying, but I remember reading a post a while ago about a guy who did JKD. They try and teach the basics of each style so that people have a rudimentary knowledge of each style/range. He said that when someone came in who trained specifically in one thing e.g. Wing Chun, that the person was all over the JKD guy, despite the JKD guy supposedly knowing all the other ranges. I personally also find learning just the basics for the street to be quite boring. Beating a guy on the street is easy - I want to be able to beat someone who knows what they are doing cause that's the interesting stuff.

I'm very sceptical of any art that says it covers all aspects. It just makes me think that they aren't really good at anything. How can you be good at everything if you have to divide your training time amongst so many things ?

Being an IT consultant allows me to be bored and surf the net

Control of your opponent is more important than submissions. If you have good control then you can apply whatever submission you like.

Groin strikes were legal in the first few UFC's. Groin kicks are fairly avoidable and aren't fight finishers anyhow. Kicking the knee is also over-rated. If the person has their knee bent and their weight on it then you'll have a hard time breaking it in the middle of a fight. Throat punches - see above regarding eye jabs. If you've got your hands up, head down in a typical boxing/kickboxing stance then you're throat is well protected. Clawing techniques - pffft. Pain techniques like this are not going to finish a fight - not against someone tough and motivated. The reason why we don't see karate, TKD , kung-fu etc in the UFC is because they don't work in this environment. Practitioners of these arts have been defeated in the UFC and similar events. It's no co-incidence that arts like BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and kickboxing are being used by all the successful fighters in these events.

I don't think vital strikes would make much difference. Eye-gouge's and biting would probably favour the grappler as he would have the better control to inflict these injuries. Eye-jabs are no different to normal jabs and it's hard enough to hit someone in the face with a jab let alone a smaller target like the eyes with a smaller weapon (fingers) in the middle of a fight.

The UFC is more suited to striking than grappling. They've changed the rules from the original format to favour striking as the viewers are more interested in knock-outs than watching two people grappling on the ground. The main rules that show this are the 5 minute rounds and restarting fighters on their feet if there is no action. On the question asked - I think you need both. Grappling has the natural advantage in that it's easier to close the distance than keep the distance.

My thoughts on Shotokan: Too linear. Too hard. Stances are too long. Too many of the good things of Okinawan karate have been taken out to suit Japanese ideals.

Why do you people think that because Royce can beat trained fighters in the ring, he can't beat untrained people (who can't even throw a straight punch) in the street ? What makes the guy on the street deadlier than a trained fighter ?

Martial means fighting. If you want to learn about spirituality, then go to church. If you want to learn meditation, go to yoga. Martial arts should be about fighting first and foremost. What does spirituality have to do with armed forces training anyway ?

Great question. I wouldn't say Traditional arts are ineffective. That would be asinine. However, there are definitely better ways to train, and these have been incorporated in MMA or “modern” arts, thus increasing these arts effectiveness. Let’s look at two things: sparring and kata. Sparring is the cornerstone of MMA and arts such as BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling etc. It is during sparring that we can see what works, what the effect is on our opponent, what the opponent’s reaction will be and working on capitalizing on our opponents reaction, as well as gaining attributes such as timing, distance and sensitivity. Attributes such as timing, knowledge of common reactions to techniques etc cannot be gained without sparring. Many traditional arts rely on things such as one-step sparring where one person throws a punch and just stands there while the defender blocks and throws a whole bunch of their own techniques. This is unrealistic, and frankly dangerous as it can lead to misconceptions of a techniques effectiveness. The same goes for non-contact sparring. Next: kata. I did Okinawan Goju-Ryu which relies heavily on kata. These people were the only people I’ve ever seen who would actually spar like they did kata and were very effective. However, I believe they are better ways to train than using kata. Kata is a good tool for remembering and cataloging techniques. However, in this day and age it has lost it’s relevance. Nothing you do in a kata couldn’t be done with a live partner in a drill. You would then get to practice the technique under increasing resistance and pressure, get timing (which you can’t get from kata) etc. The thing that I’ve noticed with many traditional arts is that the majority of training is done without a partner, or at least a “live” partner. Throwing blocks or punches in the air is useless. Do a few sure, but then the object shouldn’t be to throw a technique, it should be to have that technique land when your opponent doesn’t want you to. The ways that a lot of arts trained were forced upon them due to lack of technology and protective equipment. There is no need to continue with these training methods when there are better methods available. Having said all that, there is going to come a time when your body gets too old for regular hard sparring, and these other methods may still allow a person to train. Don’t think that this training is going to put you in the same league though as someone who is heavily conditioned and spars hard and regularly.

It's a standard gi. I like them ( I have two), although I prefer my new Machado gi at the moment.