JohnnyS

It would take about 4-5 minutes to kill someone with a choke, and that's a long time to hold on. I was told about 9 seconds but it varies. If someone is watching TV and you choke them it will take the full 8-9 seconds. If they are drunk and fighting (and their body is in oxygen-debt) then it sometimes only takes about two seconds to pass out. Craknek, I'd be sceptical about anything with Juko Kai - they are not very well respected and make many false claims. Also, neck strength will not help you avoid the choke. The bigger the neck the better it is to choke.

Go to https://www.geoffthompson.com - he's been there, done that and has great advice on confrontation management.

You can't always determine the where the fight is going to be. Taking the fight outside isn't necessarily any safer either. Inside the club you know that if anything happens then within seconds security will be there to break it up. There could also be legal repercussions if you followed a guy outside and fought him, as opposed to just defending yourself inside the club - especially if you really hurt the guy.

No, but most fights occur where there is alcohol and other people around.

dark_adjudication, you are correct. My instructor does not preach going to the ground always and neither do I. I would never encourage someone to take the fight to the ground unless they had to. I do believe that stand-up skills are a necessary part of any martial artists reportoire. I also recognise that standing striking it is a weakness of BJJ and one not acknowledged by a lot of BJJers. Back to the thread though, unless you practise regularly against the shoot by someone who knows what they are doing, you are not going to be able to avoid it in a challenge match or a streetfight. The answer to grappling attacks is grappling. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you definately need to know how to sprawl and whizzer.

I worked as a bouncer for nearly seven years, so I didn't have the option of running away, or moving away from the door of a club. Some clubs were worse than others, but on occasion I would sometimes be involved in a couple of fights in a night. Mostly it could be avoided with bluff and confidence (which is what I prefer to do), but some people are stupid and don't take the hint and so need attitude adjustments. As far as moving around quickly on your feet, how are you going to do that in a crowded bar ? Look, I did TKD too, but it is very susceptible to the shoot, simply because most TKD schools encourage the "pop" with the kick and don't allow grabbing of legs in sparring. I was a TKD black belt and went to a Goju-ryu school and everytime I kicked they would just move in, grab my leg and I'd be in trouble.

Craknek, I was merely pointing out that BJJ now is very different from when Helio fought Kimura. I will point out that Greco-Roman is a very powerful form of wrestling and getting suplexed onto your head will very quickly finish the fight. Randy Couture, former UFC Champion was very successful with it.

Dark_adjudication, In a bar fight I personally would probably punch or headbutt the guy unconscious. However, if I were to use grappling then I'd finish him in a standing choke by spinning him around and choking him unconscious (which I've done as a bouncer maybe twenty times). If it did go to ground it would only last a few seconds before I've broken his arm or choked him unconscious - plenty of time for me to get back to my feet and face anyone should I need to.

There are several problems with what your saying Craknek: Firstly, you're talking about a challenge match setting. Secondly, even using the tactics you talk about, you've only got one chance to finish your opponent and that is to knock him out. No room for error or you end up on the ground. Thirdly, anyone who shoots from 6ft away does NOT know how to do a proper double-leg (it should be performed from arms-length), so I question the ability of the JJ guy. Lastly, a streetfight starts from arms length or less, too close for effective kicking range, but close enough for a good shoot. If you try to step back in an confrontation to give you room to kick, the guy will take a step forward and you're back in punching/shooting range.

BJJ has changed and evolved immensley in the last 30 years, especially the last 10 years.

Why is it people seem to think that grapplers have no friends ? It seems a popular defense to say "But if you took me to the ground my friends would kick your head in". What if my friends were there also ? BTW, if you think biting is going to stop a fight, you're delusional.

My suggestion would be to not look scared or back down. This will only encourage your opponents. I once agreed to fight four guys who were picking on my friends who can't fight. They asked if I wanted to step outside and I said sure and started heading towards the door. One of their group then reconsidered because of my confidence and calmed his friends down. I worked as a bouncer for 7 years and 90% of confrontations can be won by bluff and by being a good talker. You also want to distract them, make them lose their focus and anger. Get them talking about something else such as football etc. It will confuse them and lower their aggression levels. For more info on fighting psychology, get any of Geoff Thompson's stuff at https://www.geoffthompson.com If it actually came to fighting, then your best option is to attack the wings. Don't start fighting in the middle of the group but go for the sides, hitting the guy as you run and then keep running. Don't stand your ground. Richard Norton, the martial arts movie guy, has a background in bouncing, and is probably one of the best martial artists on the planet. In his early days he and his boucer friends had been in many multiple opponent fights and won. They did it by attacking the wings. They would run diagonally and take out one guy with a big hit, then attack the next wing the same way. The first time he saw it was when he was working with Bob Jones (ZenDoKai). Bob and another guy and these two guys took out 20 guys by using this method. Richard couldn't believe it but quickly adopted the strategy and then used it himself on several occasions. Of course, talking your way out of it is definately the best option.

Craknek, How often do you practise in class to stop someone from taking you down with a double-leg ? How often do you practise with someone going full speed who knows how to do a double-leg properly ? If the answer is never, or very rarely, then you've got bugger-all chance of stopping a double-leg in a fight.

Also, it is a favourite tactic of Rugby boys to all ground and pound, either singularly or in a gang-tackle.

Anyone could beat some guys who don't really want to fight you. If they are committed though, you're in trouble - especially if thye know how to work as a team. A popular method of fighting for skinheads in the 80s used to be to rush the opponent, get them on the ground and put the boot in. Friends of mine from training who worked as bouncers have been able to survive multiple attackers by pulling one into their guard and using the guy as a shield whilst choking him unconscious. They were then saved by other bouncers. It's not an ideal way of dealing with the situation - but if you get rushed by a group of people you had better well know what to do on the ground, cause that's where you'll end up. Personally, I'd rather not have to get my clothes dirty and would prefer to keep the fight standing. But, I've been in enough fights to know that keeping your balance, especially when people are coming at you from different angles, is difficult and lessens the power of your strikes, as well as making it near impossible to stay standing for long.

For anyone to say that their art gives them a great chance in a multiple attacker situation, that person must have been watching to many Jackie Chan movies and have a tenuous grip on reality. If your opponents are committed and work as a team you will have no chance of stopping them taking you to the ground and stomping you. Your only chance is if they fight independently of each other, and aren't really into fighting you. No art can guarantee success in a multiple opponent situation. It's laughable when people suggest that BJJ is good for one-on-one but not for multiple opponents, and use this as a selling point for their own art. Are they really suggesting that although they couldn't beat Royce Gracie in a fight, add in a couple of his brothers and now the practitioner of this "multiple-opponent-ready" art will beat them ? Rorion Gracie used to put up with the same argument from people entering his academy. He used to suggest that these people try out their theories on a bunch of his students and see how well they worked. As far as I know no-one ever took up the offer.

The shootfighting and BJJ is through John Will, a Machado Black belt. John has excellent stand-up and combines BJJ with stand-up fighting, including blitzing and the psychological aspects of the fight. You can see some of John's stuff at https://www.bjj.com.au. My picture is on the site but it's a terrible shot. P.S I don't really do the Shootfighting anymore. I've got enough trouble just doing BJJ.

Sorry, I was wrong on my history. I still stand by my other comments. Goju is a much deeper art and far more practical on the street than is shotokan.

I would definately do Goju if I were you. Especially if it's Okinawan. It's very good. Shotokan is basically karate for kids. Funokoshi modified karate so he could teach it to children and it was then called Shotokan. I've found Shotokan to be too Japanese i.e. too linear, too hard and too stylized. Goju is one of the arts that Shotokan was derived from, has both circular and linear movements, is hard and soft and far more practical for the street.

Why not tell your instructor you're interested in knowing what to do from here. He can then take that question and make a whole class or series of classes from it. As an instructor you can sometimes forget what people want to learn straight away, or what problems they are facing in class, so I encourage students to ask me questions.

Assuming your opponent is standing by your side you could either put him in your guard, kick at his knees and force him back so you can get back to your feet, or underhook his heel with your near arm, pump your hips up and kneebar him.

BKJ1216 wrote: "Well If striker uses a lot of evading and is in and out very quickly with his strikes, how much of a chance does he have?" Frankly, without a decent knowledge of grappling, the answer is "Not much". It's really just a matter of time before the clinch and then the takedown. Think of it this way - Kostya Tzuyu, a world champion boxer is known for connecting with 40% of his strikes (which is apparently very high). Kostya doesn't knock his opponent out everytime he lands a strike, so what make you think you could, assuming you could even connect with a clean shot ? Even Maurice Smith, a world champion kickboxer and one of the hardest hitters in the world in his prime, couldn't stop the fight going to the ground in MMA fights. His early MMA matches saw his striking rendered useless. Maurice improved a lot once he learnt how to grapple, but even then he still couldn't stop being taken to the ground. Somewhat ironically, the most effective strikers in MMA seem to be also the people who have a grappling background as they can strike and not worry about ending up on the ground because "Hey, that's where they wanted to be anyway".

The way that strikers talk, you'd think that everytime they land a kick or punch in training that they have incapacited their sparring partner. I came from a TKD background, before moving on to Okinawan Goju-Ryu. At that time a group or us who were all black belts and used to tough sparring got together for training. We saw Gracie in Action and tried the takedown and mount method on each other. We would allow one person to only grapple, and the other person could punch, kick and knee as hard as they want (no gloves or pads). Everytime the grappler took the other person down (and this is guys with no takedown experience). Sometimes we'd cop a black eye, but it never stopped the takedown. We quickly realised that kicks especially left you vulnerable to the takedown. If you throw a kick and your opponent blocks or parries it, there is a half second in which you have to pull you leg back to re-chamber it or put it on the ground. This is the perfect opportunity for the grappler to move in and secure the clinch then takedown. Consequently, we have all since left TKD and karate and moved on to Shootfighting and BJJ. Ti-Kwon-Leap, John Will is my instructor. I'm glad you got something from his seminar. I'd be surprised if you didn't as John is an excellent instructor.