delta1

No, you did not make yourself clear. There's nothing specific there, nothing that shows understanding of either TKD r fighting in general. Just wild claims and accusations. Folks, I think we got us a troll here! Wild claims, baiting, threats and challenges- the Trolls stock in trade. I'd recomend ignoring the ignorant- which is what I intend to do now ...

Batosai Imora, I gotta hand it to you- you've turned this into a decent discussion. "Course, you've alienated most people here doing it, but what the hey!? TKD can be used effectively in a fight, if it's trained that way. I know people who use it professionally, in high level security work. Also, I find TKD an excellent in close fighting style. But, before you start screaming about how little I know (and I really do know little), I'll tell you what let's do; you tell me, specifically, how it isn't- give me a specific example- and I'll try to show you here how it is. Deal?

On your own, make a tire dummy or a fire hose dummy and practice the moves you are taught in class, with footwork. Work up your speed, power and flow without sacrificing tecnique.

Thanks, aefi. Yeah, I'm a little bummed, but then, if this works out, it may be for the best. SCARS is an acronym, and I don't remember what it stands for. The actual subsystem we'll be useing is called HCS, which stands for 'Hostile Control Systems'. It's a modern combative system, similar philosophy to Krav Maga. I'd looked at it before, and wasn't that impressed- though it was better than the little KM I've seen. But it was brought up as an area of interest, and I have the time right now to look at their tapes more. It has some problems, but there is actually some good stuff there- it just really needs to be cleaned up- which, incidentally, suits my purposes here to a TEE!

Not really longer than other arts. The stick work translates both to other weapons and to empty hands. And besides, you already have a striking art, so it shouldn't be a real problem. And Arnis is an excellent art to introduce flow into TKD. There are throws and sweeps, primarily low kicks, knee strikes and elbows, joint locks- with and without sticks, Phillipino grappling, single and double stick, short and long weapons, empty hands, ... all depends on the school/instructor as to how much and how they train it.

Welcome, Kate.

Well, ok, here it is. First, the base. I'm looking at the IKCA because they are a Parker Kenpo system (though they list their style as Chinese). They do a few things differently than wht I'm used to in American Kenpo, but they are still very similar to my base, so changing bases here is not really a significant thing. The course is an abreviated system, 55 techniques as opposed to 154 (+/-). They get all the principles in those 55, but there are obviously some things they are not gooing to be able to include (if you are familiar with AK: family groupings, numerouse techniques for similar attacks to deal with subtle variations, etc.). They do deal with these as extra instruction, but how well I can't say (yet). To be honest, there were some things I questioned about their system. For example, I don't like their bear hug techniques, as written. Frankly, most of the bear hug defenses in most systems are bogus any way- my not so humble opinion, and with no apologies to the many grand pooh butts I might offend. But, I think I can use their method as a base to work a useable defense, with modifications. Also, I can import some good techniques from the AK I already know- and I know they work because I've applied them under full force assaults. If you are not familiar with AK, you may look at some of these techniques and question whether they work. Remember, you learn first 'by the numbers', and things don't allways fit. But, when you add flow later on, and do it under force, you'll be surprised how things fall into place. I certainly found that working with some of the IKCA techniques. And, after you sign on as a student (as opposed to just buying the videos) they apparently give you a lot of pointers and change-ups. I'll probably do their course, and test through them, so I can get all the info. But I won't require anyone else working out with us to do that. I think I have enough experience to make this work, combined with the video instruction. I can also handle adapting the other systems to Kenpo- I already do some of this now, and it works well. The extra systems we'll use are Tae Kwon Do, SCARS, Arnis, WWII Combatives, and hopefully a little grappling. These are the areas that those who (hopefully) want to work out are interested in. While we'll all learn the base style well, no one will be required to learn the others. What we will do is take them, break them down for the principles, possibly re-arrange them and drill the **** out of them. This, in addition to developing fighting skills, promotes understanding of principles and concepts. It also insures that everyone is thinking outside the @#%^ box! TKD is a hard, linear style that is known for its distance techniques. I find it an extremely effective in close system, if you work it right. SCARS is an extremely aggressive, mostly circular system, with some good moves. But they telegraph worse than anything I've come across, and waste a lot of motion, with their wind up to punch and large looping circular approach. These two systems will make good fodder for us to dissect and reconstruct with Kenpo principles and moves. The Arnis and WWII combatives I want mostly for weapons, but they too will be brought into the Kenpo methodology. In addition, we intend to work psychology, physiology, awareness, police and counter terror tactics, night fighting, intervention, ... in short, if it concerns practical combatives and self defense, we'll work on it. We also spar with contact, ground is an option, and we fight with the weapons we train for (training weapons, obviousely). Between us, we already have most of the gear we need, and I am one of the great improvisers (read that 'cheap SOB' of training gear out there. I'm still on medical down time, but I've run through some of this with a partner, and I've been doing a lot of research, planning and organizing. Hopefully this will fly. But, there's my plan, so far any way.

I'll see how far I get before I have to go. Actually, that is cheap for good private instruction. I've seen it at $50.00/ half hour. Whether it is worth it or not depends on what you get out of it. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that- just means you might have to look a little harder to find them. I obviousely agree about its adaptability and practicality. One of the things that make it so is that it effectively combines both hard and soft, circular and linear. Another is that, more than any other system I"ve seen, it is based on principles and logic. You not only learn to do it right, you learn why it is right. This is important because the student can, to some degree, become self correcting. I can show you 20 times how to do something, and it may or may not ever sink in. But you only have to figure it out once for yourself, and it is internalized like nothing I could ever show you. Obviously, you need some guidance so as not to internalize incorrect things. But it is far better than the old "do it this way because we do it this way" method. It's been many years, but I can't immagine it's changed that much. I sort of liked the area, but then I'm a rural type of guy.

Quest33, what you say is true, and in reality situations it pretty much goes for all of us- not just the women. But sometimes they may not be studying for self defense. Some people just want sport or self improvment, which is fine. I've allways said though, man or woman, don't delude yourself that what you do will work for real if you don't practice it realistically. It might, but I wouldn't want to depend on it.

Thanks, Dijita. I guess I can see where us reality types can be a little intimmidating, or seem arrogant at times. And the self improvement crowd can come off a little superior also. But I don't think most of us mean it that way. I just remind myself that they are as hyped by what they do as I am about what I do. And those categories I listed are not mutually exclusive- I think there is at least a little of each in all martial arts systems. It's more a matter of focus than exclusion. But, like applications of techniques, you sometimes have to go a little outside the box in your thinking to find these other qualities.

Couple of things bother me. First, the gimmicks- throw in a uniform and free gift. And they charge for eight weeks at a time, which most people figure is $45.00 a month but really is more. 45/mo would be 540/yr. 90/8wks is 585/yr. They basically get an extra months payment out of you. A little to 'selly' for my likeing in a martial arts school. Second, the statement that they do the other stuff so the students don't get bored. It's a martial arts school, not an entertainment center. Muay thai, kickboxing, ground combat, and weapons are all good things to learn, but not for their entertainment value. I'd suggest looking around an comparing what you find. You have enough experience to have a good idea what you want from the martial arts. And you probably have a gut feeling about this place, good or bad. Don't rush in to a decission, but decide based on what you want and what you know. If this is the only Shotokan school, and you don't like their approach, you might consider looking for a similar style and changing over to stay with a more traditional training approach.

ahultqui, looks like a good school. Good luck. Thuggish, ever hear the saying that opinions are like backside orifices? Starts with, we all have one, and ...

I don't think you've seen that here, certainly not much. You may be reading a lot into posts that isn't there. I see a lot of people here who take martial arts for different reasons, and a general attitude of respect for every one else. To focus on one aspect of the martial arts does not make you less a martial artist. However, to be a complete, well rounded martial artist, you would have to study some of each of the elements- combat, self defense, sport, self improvement, fitness, health, spiritual, and healing. You'd also need discipline, knowlege, philosophy, psychology, physiology, kinematics, writing and teaching skills. Add to that, you'd need to study and integrate a striking style, locking and throwing style, ground style, an internal style, and probably one of the short combatives courses taught in a high stress, reality venue. Throw in some tradition, respect, honor,... . So I'll ask, how well rounded, or complete, a martial artist are you? The point is that few today have the time for all that, and we each come to the martial arts with different needs, different goals, and different desires. So we all focus on those aspects that meet our needs. And because I, or anyone else, talks about what we do with zeal or pride, it doesn't mean we disrespect what you or anyone else does. And it doesn't mean we don't see the bennifits in what you do, or that we think you're anything less for doing it. It just means that I need something different than the next guy, and I seek a path that will provide that. Consider that, if I thought my style was the only way, or that fighting is the only reason, there are boards and forums devoted entirely to those subjects. This is where I, and others, come to talk about what we do. One big reason I come to a mixed board is to hear what you have to say. I train with other stylists to expose myself to different strategies and tactics. I talk to you to expose myself to different thoughts and ideas.

Very true, very possible. One good reason to learn gross motor joint destructions first, then learn finer joint locks. A matter of priorities, not exclusion.

SS, I agree with you for the most part. For one thing, I used to drive twice that distance one way for private instruction, and never regretted it one bit. More than worth it with the right instructor. But there can be a lot of reasons that this isn't feasable. If possible, though, I'd agree that this should be a primary consideration. I also agree that one on one with a good instructor is the best way to learn. But for some, it isn't possible. And there are some video courses where they are not just interested in your money. Also, personal instruction is no guarantee of quality or continued excellance. So, we do what we can to keep going, and video can be an option to at least give everyone a common base while we all persue our interests. By the way, I used to hang out in Payette, just a few miles N/NE of Fruitland. Unless things have changed radically, I doubt he will find much there. But again, you are right, that if he does it will probably be in someones garage. He does have the advantage that there are a few small towns clustered there, close enough that he should have no trouble with forming his own group. Sounds like he's already done that.

Ok, I have a little time right now. I am generally against video programs. But in the case where you have experience, if you can find a good video program to advance your skills and understanding, I don't see a problem. I'm looking at the IKCA program myself, for a lot of the same reasons you talk about. I do have acces to a FSTKD school here, and they are pretty lenient about letting me Kenpoize their stuff. But it still isn't Kenpo. It has also gotten to the point that the class is more like a babysitters job than the down and dirty training we used to do there- long, sordid story, but they are loosing a lot of the seriouse martial artists right now. There is nothing else close, and I can no longer travel for private lessons like I used to. So, some of us are thinking about going on our own. The base we are looking at is the IKCA carriculum. It is an abbreviated Parker Kenpo system, taught by video. We have other interests, and Kenpo is adaptable enough that the other styles can blend well. It is a street effective style, but the IKCA guys litterally walked away with the Nationals a year ago. So it is adaptable to competition as well. The staff there is apparently really good at answering questions and correcting students. Heck, I talked to GM Lareux once and he answered a lot of questions for me, and I wasn't even considering his style at that time. He's one of those people that genuinly likes to share the martial arts- one reason I looked into this when it came up now. Any how, with your experience, if you are looking for a principles based course for extended/distance learning, you might give them a try. I'd still go with personal instruction if you can find a stable school in a style you like, and they teach with realism. But when you can't find what you like or need, I guess I'm at the point that it is time to just make it happen. These guys look like a good option. If you are interested, PM me and I'll see if I can dig up some info on them.

I don't have much time right now, but I do know what you are up against. Go to: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13216 I think we are in a similar situation. I'll talk later when I have more time.

Most of you know that I live in a rural area, and it is difficult to get any consistant training in anything, and impossible to get training in my base, which is American Kenpo. Working out with other schools is fun and educational, but also consumes a lot of time and money. So, I'm thinking of forming a sort of independant study group. As a base, I'm looking at the IKCA video serries- a Parker Kenpo based system, but abreviated (55 techniques). I think I can handle the instruction there, along with the videos. And it is adaptable enough to be mixed with TKD, Arnis, and some of the reality arts like SCARS and WWII combatives. Those are the primary interests of prospective participants here. I've done some of most of these, and I just viewed some of the SCARS tapes and manuals. I can see all of it easily blending with Kenpo (though the SCARS will need a lot of work). What I'm thinking about is doing the IKCA stuff, and learning it well. Testing would be optional (they will video test you if you want the rank). The other arts, people could learn and mix as they like. I'll help them, but I expect that as they get more experience working with principles and concepts, they'll be able to handle this on their own. In fact, that is one reason for going with a Parker based system, to learn to extrapolate and transpose the principles. Since I enjoy doing this, and do some now with a few of them, it would be no big deal for me- and I learn as much as they do when I help them. I have most of the equipment, and others also have some, so cost is not a factor. The main thing is to get one group with a common goal, and that is a realistic training aproach to street/combative martial arts. Adults only, and expect to get hit. I'd also like to add some ground work, if I can find someone competant to at least give ussome basic skills there. I expect the eclectic nature of the group and training could be a problem. But it can also be a strong point, since you wouldn't get into the rut that a lot of schools find themselves in, fighting only their own style. And everyone will have to get a sound base and understanding in order to transpose and mix the systems. You also get to work with and understand more than your own narrow focus. I've done this before, just not on my own or to this extent, and it works. And I'm in the research, planning and developement phase right now, so who knows if it will fly. But a few of us have been talking about it, and the idea intrigues me. At this point, I don't plan to charge anything. I'm not taking on any titles, and if any one else can contribute, they are more than welcome to instruct. I would be sort of a coordinator, in that someone has to be in a position to lay out the classes and keep things on course and in focus, and make sure everyone gets a chance to practice their area(s) of interest. Any of you ever tried something like this? How did it work? Any pointers, tips, or pitfalls to watch for?

If you don't mind my asking, who did you study Chinese Kenpo with? Reason I'm asking, I'm thinking of trying to start a group under the IKCA, with some extra from Arnis, FSTKD- Kenpoized & in close, and hopefully some grappling and reality/street/combatives. Still in the planning and organizing phase, so who knows?

Not a bad idea! But we'd need a few more regular posters before broaching the subject with management. And if we could get our own section, we'd probably get more posters- which might or might not be a selling point to some people . At least it would keep us from bothering the karate folks so much .

I take glucosimine and chondroitin suppliments daily, along with MSM and several herbs. I also have a standing prescription for Celebrix, which I only take as needed- usually after I've really worked the heavy bag or done a lot of hard sparing. So, I don't really take the prescription drug that often, and certainly not regularly. But if I miss the suppliments for even a day, and even without a workout, it can take me over a week to get back on track. And I don't have the side effects you mention. So, in my experience, the gucosamine and chondroitin, along with the other suppliments, works. But my body may respond differently than yours. Some suggestions: *Make sure it is glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate- the only kind your body will readily absorb. *Get good quality. *Use only capsules, as the heat generated in making tablets tends to destroy the ingredients. *Take an MSM suppliment- without it, the bennifits of taking glucosamine or chondroitin are limmited, at best. *If you take MSM, you'll need to take vitamin C also. *Try taking herbal suppliments to help joint health and reduce swelling. *If you are having problems with the suppliments, try changing brands and/or adjusting dosages. * If you don't already have a prescription for an arthritus drug, get one so that when you do overdo it and need something extra, you can take that instead of increasing your dosage of herbs and suppliments. These are some things that have worked for me. Your mileage may varry, but I hope this helps.

The longer you are in the martial arts, the more 'ultimate options' you will come across. There are a lot of good systems out there, and they all have something to offer. But, if there was one ultimate option, it would soon dominate all others in all areas- sport, self defense, self developement, health, ... . And even if it was only the ultimate option for one class, it would at least dominate that class. This is obviously not the case. Style is important, but not as important as the stylist, and the only secret to success in the martial arts is hard work. In my opinion, you should look for a good style that offeres what you want, and that suits you. Fit the style to yourself, not yourself to the style. Work hard and get your basics down cold. Then later, after you have some experience and understanding, start working with other stylists both to test your understanding of your art and to pick up techniques and tactics from them. But, wherever you go and whatever you do, allways bring it back to your base. Look for how your base handles anything you run across that gives you trouble. Your base style will usually have an answer, but you may have to really dig for it. Moves or techniques that you may want to add to your arsenal should be adapted to fit into and work with your base. But don't waste your time and energy looking for that ultimate style. It exists only in the adds in the martial arts magazines- and the only technique they have that works is the mind game that gets you to open your check book. Edit: just for the record, if you decide that Muay Thai is the way you want to go, it is an excellent style for both sport and self defense. But it is far from the ultimate- about as far as everything else. All that matters is if it is the ultimate for you.

darkreaper, I do American Kenpo (AKTS). Thee are a couple of us here, and since we're a little of everything, we just post all over the place ! There are also a few other kenpo/kempo stylists who post here regularly. This forum has a pretty wide variety of systems and experience. You might want to go to the introductions board and say hello, tell us a little about yourself. Never know who or what you'll turn up there.

arny, good to have you here.

I'd suggest that instead of just one kata with all the best bunkai, do several with different themes. Grappling is an excellent theme for your first one. Many American Kenpo systems encourage or require this, and it is an excellent training tool. You really have to think about what you are doing to put together a viable kata, or form. Not just the moves, but the principles and concepts. Sometimes you can work one technique several ways to contrast its' variouse applications. You can explore similar techniques and the subtle differences in their applications. You can explore families of techniques, or similar moves, or groups of moves (like parries or checks). I did one whose theme was stances and footwork, where I transposed my upright maneuvers to kneeling and grounded scenarios. Choose any theme that intrigues you and get into it. Don't expect your kata(s) to become immortalized, but as a tool to further your understanding, as well as developing your insight and problem solving skills, this is one of the best ways to do it.