delta1

Thanks, Rich. Sounds more like it all the time. Attack the attack, keep him off ballance. The object wasn't even to keep him on the defensive, but to hurt him and keep him hurtin'. Total domination from the first move, regardless which one threw first. Sounds like they shared some of the same philosophy and concepts, at least. We did some takedowns, throws, and joint locks as well. San Soo do a lot of that? I see in your earlier post (way earlier) you do some. We did just enough to capture, control or subdue the average guy long enough to hit him again, or to get help there. But you couldn't by any means call it comprehensive.

Another revival! But I have some questions, and this seems better than starting another thread. What you guys describe, and what little I know about San Soo, it sounds a little like some of the reality combatives I've worked with before. Very aggressive, works off seting up a reaction, constant forward pressure or go for position. Never give him a chance to recover from your last strike. The defense is an offense, where you receive rather than just block or counter. Every "defensive" move either repositioned him, did some dammage, effected his ballance, trapped, or doubled as a strike- and often several of these at once. It used a lot of circular motion and gross motor skills, nothing too fancy, and absolutely nothing half way. Stances and footwork were prety basic, simple. They were more concerned with relative position than a perfect stance- that and, of course, good ballance in both stance and movement. There was some wasted movement with drawing back to strike and such, but for a quickly learned, basic fighting system, it was ok. How does this compare to San Soo?

This is why I look at my base, American Kenpo, as training to move under assault, rather than as specific/rote response to particular assaults. 154 techniques, sometimes as many as four for the same attack, pluss offensive moves and forms- and some people try to tell me they can bring up the right technique and run it verbatim in a real assault? It has happened, but those I've talked to that did it for real say it just came, they didn't 'choose' the technique. And it didn't happen that way for them every time, either. They did, however, train realistically, under force. And when the technique went badly, both dummy and defender continued until one got the upper hand. Same with sparing. Every once in a while we need to put on the gear, and go at it with hard (but controled) contact. How hard depends on the experience, health, and desires of the combatants. More than that, we need to induce stress. Have other class mates rough up the combatants prior to the fight. Insult them, threaten them, yell, show them 'real' anger. This can get pretty personal, and can cause hard feelings, so if there are any questions about any ones character, use your judgement. Some people just don't respond well to this kind of training. Nothing is like a real assault/fight, except a real assault/fight. But the closer you come to simulating it, the better prepared you are. Another thing to do is to trian and fight with other stylists. They will show you things you may not be prepared to defend against. Training for avoidance and deescalation should be as realistic as possible, also. Most of my altercations have been over before they got to blows, fortunately. But this didn't just happen by accident. I train avoidance, positioning, watching for signs of trouble. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I know for sure of instances where this has saved my backside from dammage. Same with talking them down. I'm on an extended period of downtime right now, and maybe I'm just getting a little antsy about getting back to training. But I've been spending some time on the computer and reading books, and a lot of this just confirms what I've said all along. If you expect it to work in the street, train it like you'll have to use it in the street.

http://stickgrappler2.tripod.com/street/anatfear.html Good article, by Darren Laur. Gives some good reasons why we should include training under not only force, but high stress. Also, makes a good case for simplifying some of our techniques. One of the ways I ssimplify things is to rework most of my TKD moves to American Kenpo principles, but make them simple, direct, and brutal- useing mostly gross motor movement. Comments on the article? Or maybe ideas to alter training to make it more realistic?

sagasa, sounds like an oddessy. We'll have to twist your arm to write an article on it when you're done!

Figures! But tihs is no jkoe!

Came across this while doing some research on the net, and thought I'd share it (for obviouse reasons ) Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer In waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and llsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mind deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Let me get this straight- she's standing there with the kick chambered, waiting for you to hit her with upper body punches/strikes? What couldn't you do? Attack her base, let her kick and trap or put it where you want, move to the side and kick or hit her. If she's already chambered for the kick, I wouldn't slide directly into her, though. Heck, front snap kick the chambered leg then move in. 1001 options to choose from.

I'd have to agree, support th' Homes first. Another site that I've had really good service from is Sakura Martial Arts Supplies: https://www.sakura-0.com They have a martial arts auction where I've picked up some really good deals (but you have to watch it).

Are you talking about extra training outside a class, or learning on your own?

Any reality based student should be. You can learn basic coordination and principles with traditional weapons, and that transfers to modern or improvised weapons- but only if you train the skills to make the transition. Sometimes, I am somewhere and have a little time, and I'll look for improvised weapons. Sometimes I'll grab something immediately on entering a room or an area, because that's likeky all the time you'll have (if you are lucky). Then, if I'm not too conspicuouse, I'll practice with it. Some of the dingbatts at work think I'm a little wierd, but I can live with that. Sometimes, too, I'll run the drill as soon as I think of doing it (*puts down cup and chair to type the rest of this*). Another example of skills transfer, my brother came up with the idea of shooting from a neutral bow (AK's default stance) and useing basic stance changes and footwork to maintain alignment, search, cover, move to/with cover, etc. Let everyone else argue about the Weaver or Isosceles stances- most of them shoot a modified or hybrid stance any way. Useing my base footwork is actually more effective (and, yes, I've tested it against some good shooters on combat courses). It also allows me to protect the firearm dureing deployment at close quarters. Good question.

Dijita, that is what most people here do is talk about what we know, the styles we do or have come in contact with. One thing about this forum, there aren't many people here who try to fit everyone in the same mould. For the most part, we respect what everyone has to say. In the end, it's his decission, based on what he wants and likes. You should give him a link to those Kyokushin clips you posted so he can see that style in action. Who knows, that may be what interests him.

Bill Wallace to Dave Hebler, when discussing ranks as opposed to the bennifits of studying the martial arts: "I have no quarrel with those who carry high rank around on their belt- they're the ones who have to wear it." (Dave Hebbler, in 'The Journey')

Awareness and avoidance, number one. But it doesn't allways work. Compliance, number two. But they don't allways give you that option. I assume you mean number three, where you have no option, or you judge that is probably the case. Giving specifics is pointless, as no two assaults are the same. But there are some principles and guidelines. *You are in a life threatening situation, and your only concern is survival. **Get savage! Do what is necessary to put them down as quickly and surely as possible. Includes killing strikes, but I wouldn't go out of my way to kill. Destroying parts of their anatomy is ok too. **If at any time you have the opportunity to escape, take it. **Draw attention, just on the chance someone will help. If nothing else, they may save your life by calling in and getting an ambulance in route. *Access a weapon- yours, theirs, improvised, or otherwise. *Take one of them out immediately, if possible, and do it in such a way the others know you know your business, and you mean business. Two is better odds than three, and there is the psycological advantage both to you, and over them. **May convince them to run, which is sort of like a reverse escape. Let them go, unless there's some compelling reason not to. *Move! You are outnumbered by people who want to harm you, don't become a standing target. Get position when you move, you want to neutralize weapons and attackers so you are not overwhelmed. **Get in and out quickly. You can't afford a prolonged engagement until you've taken two of them out so effectively that you are sure they can't get back in it. ***Even then, you can't be sure there aren't others- friends in the area, lookouts, another opportunistic thug that steps in after they have done the hard work. Which brings us to the next point... *There are allways more bad guys than what you see, until proven otherwise. *And, last but not least, after you've taken them out, check for witnesses. If there are any, get their names and info for later. If not, steal the thugs money, weapons, and anything else of value and... don't get your knickers in a twist, guys- I'm just kidding.

If there is an American Kenpo school near you, check that out. Make sure the school trains the type of tournament skills you want, though. Some schools teach anything from point sparing to full contact NHB. Others don't do any tournament training. If they do the full contact venue, they'll probably have grappling as well- a good thing whether you want full contact or not. If all you want is the no contact or limmited contact where you want to insure the judges see everything, Tae Kwon Do probably has the advantage, if you find the right school. If you ant to do weapons tournament fighting, try the Fillipino Martial Arts. By far the most fun when actually fighting, but the pain can be intense. I'd give BJJ the edge if all you want to do is NHB, provided you can combine it with a good striking art. Gumbi is right, these answers are biased. But no more so than anyone elses. The bottom line is that the final decision is yours. What interests you? What do you want out of it? What is available in your area? Keep us advised about your search, and ask any specific questions as they come up. We'll all be happy to share our biases some more - but in all of it you'll find some decent advice. Most people here are into helping more than promoting their own style. Good luck!

Concur. Thanks for the links, some good stuff. You guys actually do some things similar to American Kenpo- guard/checks in place, attacks to the base set up by high strikes, and vice-versa. Nothing like seeing a style in action.

How much is too much? When it upsets the ballance and becomes a hinderance to learning. Jigoro Kano proved that if all you are doing is learning kata, you are only learning kata. You aren't learning effective martial arts. Learning to do the moves is not learning to apply them, and at 119 kata's, I doubt they have time for anything more than learning what ammounts to a bunch of martial dance steps.

G Money Slick, accidents happen. It's a rough hobby, and you gotta 'spect a few bumps n bruises form time to time. Heck, most of the schools I've worked out with, you're gonna get smacked- intentionally!I guess I just don't understand the hands off mentality in some martial arts schools.

Yep. Had my share of those, and worse- my mistakes are in English, so everyone knows I screwed up! But you are right, next week will be someone elses turn. Personally, I'm dreading getting back into full workouts for this reason. I'm supposed to go to S. Cal. in a couple of months, and will work out with some folks I know while there. Could be really pitiful if things don't improve soon.

The courts have held that for years. They don't have a duty to respond, either. Most individuals and departments will, and do. But legally, they don't have to, and there have been many cases where they did not. Just something to think about whenever someone trrys to convince you to give up realistic training, including weapons, for a kinder, gentler way.

I agree whole heartedly with this. However, you will also need to carry some cheap *&^%$ to compete with the others. The difference, call yours what it is, cheap *&^%$ . Some people want innexpensive gear for a lot of reasons- too cheap themselves, for travel or really rough training (loose or destroy it, you aren't out much). I've got gloves from these guys before, and they were okI cut them up and modified them for stick work, so I wasn't out much if I butchered them. Any way, give them a try if you like. They are a Pakistani company, and their prices were very low. zealpak <zealpak@skt.wol.net.pk> Oh yes, I copied the address from my e-mail, and I recently learned that this doesn't work sometimes- something about shortening the address??? Any way, you'll have to type it in so it should work. If not, and you want to contact them, let me know and I'll see if I can find the whole thing- I REALLY HATE COMPUTERS! (just had to say that )

Good job! The officer should have got your particulars and a statement, since you got involved, even if he did neglect to say thanks. Doesn't sound like he was much of a cop all around. Maybe you should consider a career change? One thing, though... I thought that line was from Mighty Mouse, a cartoon about a mouse that wore a cape and pretty much acted like Supermand, except that he was a mouse, and went around saving mices. Underdogs famouse line was "You knew the job was dangerouse when you took it, Fred!" No, wait,... that was Superchicken- a cartoon about a chicken that wore a cape and pretty much acted like Superman, except ...

'Lo, woodz. Welcome.

Whoa, I used to run cross country, and the mile and two mile in track, when I was in HS. But that was more years ago than I care to think about. Good to have you here! Nice forum, hope it takes off and does well for you.

The stuff I've seen is mostly stand up grappling, and a lot of chokes. Knife/bayonette, garrote- wet work. Obviously a lot of firearms, explosives and improvised weapons. A lot of them also get other training on the side. Holds tend to be for capture/restraint, not for submission or to break or injure. But I'm not ex or current spec ops, so this is all second hand. They don't tend to be too talkative about their training, except when giving classes or working with other military personnel, and then on a need to know only basis. On the other hand, I remember a couple of SF types (Green Berets) who came over to show us ignorant Jarheads how things were supposed to be done. They spent the entire week walking around, saying things like "I don't believe it." "How did you do that?" "You can't be useing that." Naawww, that can't work, ..., can it?" 'Unreal." We were sure sad to see them go. They were good entertainment- we didn't tend to get the good USO shows, so we really appreciated what we did get. If you are thinking about studying an art with a view to later military service, I'd go with one that is brutal, alive (I like that term), and has a lot of standup grappling and knife work. My first choice would be an art based on WWII combatives. Another good choice is (and I'm going to surprise some of you here) BJJ. It stresses alive training and moving for dominant position, and useing principles and technique in close. Fighting with a full compliment of deuce gear (782 gear, full kitt, full harness, all that dang junk you have to carry) is different than anything you'll get to do in a martial arts class, but the principles will carry over. American Kenpo would be another good art to study, as it will teach you to use and adapt principles. (That recomendation shouldn't surprise anyone! ) I don't know if this is what you were looking for, but hope it helps.