delta1

Just because you learned a spear hand to the throat, doesn't mean you have to use it. Shotokan also taught you how to punch him in the nose and to kick him in non lethal ways. It is about having options, not just about killing or maiming. True enough that most fights do not justify the use of deadly force. But, in the few that do, your spear hand might be a good thing to know. And when faced with multiple opponents, it might be good to know how to turn that kick to the legs into a shot that takes out a knee (and there are many ways to do this that are not obviouse), thus taking one opponent out of the fight. Sport is sport. Hard contact sports are good training, but not the ultimate training for reality. And, besides that, you MT guys wear funnt shorts!

All good advice, especially Dijita. Another thing to look at is their orientation. Some schools only work kata. And though they might work on the applications of moves in the kata, they never really apply them. You have to apply them, with control of course, in order to learn them. Already covered, but extremely important, they should periodically spar with contact and ground option (even if they are a striking school) if they profess to teach realistic self defense. Some weapons sparing is also a must. If there is an American Kenpo school in your area, I suggest you check it out. It orks well for men and women of all sizes and abilities. Also, look hard at the JKD school, another system that has a good rep. But be aware that just because the system is good, it doesn't mean the school is. Any style or system can be good for self defense, if taught that way. But many are not. Some red flags: *"Our techniques are too deadly to apply in training,"- run, Forrest, run! Find another school. *"No contact sparing will prepare you for full contact fighting, without the injuries." No, it prepares you to get injured if you have to apply it for real, in all probability. *"We don't allow our students to work out with other systems/stylists because we don't want to share our secrets." Wrong- they are afraid of the comparison. If the other instructor came in and signed a contract, they'd tell him everything they know. *"Contracts allow us to keep our costs down by assureing our revenue and letting us plan ahead." Contracts assure them revenue because when you find out they are selling crap, you still have to pay for it. Don't sign any contracts, especially ones that obligate you to long terms. *"Sport training is the best for reality situations because it puts your skills on the line against other fighters." Hard contact sports are good training, but not the best or only way to put your skills to the test. Sports have rules, reality tends to be lawless and extremely chaotic. Reality arts train for that chaos, not for the ring or to impress the ref or judges, or to submit him or KO him only. Reality trains to destroy his will or his ability to continue. It trains for multiple opponents and weapons. It trains to recognize signs of trouble, and to avoid trouble before all else. One last tip- if you aren't sure, take the time to try out a couple of schools and see what you like best. Most, as already said, will let you take a couple of free lesons. You could also sign up for a couple of months. No ime you spend learning is wasted, and in fact it would be a good investment to make sure you get what you want for both you and your family. Good luck!

I agree that the term 'heavy contact' better describes it. But there are no schools that teach 'full contact' by your definition (except those run by Al Queda or the N. Koreans, maybe). Pain is not the only, or even the most important factor you have to learn to deal with. Go back and re-read. I agree, and have said many times, that everyone doesn't take martial arts to learn fighting or self defense. As long as they are getting what they want out of it, that's fine. And I never said that no contact is worthless for self defense purposes. I have said, and stand by it, that if you want it to work in self defense you are far better off to train with force and with contact. But both are controlled. I've also said before that no one needs to train to be injured. I disagree that there are no circumstances where you should have to fight. There are many times when you would have to fight, regardless whether you are willing to look at other options or even just back down. Sadly, not every aggressor will let you walk away, and often they attack with little or no warning. And what they want, you may not be willing to give up- your life, your family, your honor (and don't give me any PC * about honor not being worth fighting for. Only those with none espouse that creed). I'd be interested to know where you got that the Shaolin Monks never trained with contact. As for their being the best, maybe at their time and place in history. But the best ever seen... ? I see you do, or did, AKKS Kenpo. Did your school practice the techniques under hard force? If so, did you have to make adjustments as the force increased? If not, go back and try Alternating Maces off a push that hits you with the intent of blasting you back onto your butt. Try any of the techs for a straight punch in close. Let's pick Dance of Death, since it is for a trailing hand strike, which means that you have a little more time to react than with a lead hand jab. Even that trailing hand is going to come at you incredably fast from in close. And your block will have to come across your body more to pick it up. But you'll also see that the 'block' checks his weapon back to his body better. And along with your knee check and block rocking him back, you can get a shoulder into him and really rock him back onto his heels. The rest of the technique just sort of falls into place. But you'll never know that, or do it for real, if you don't train it that way. And you will never catch yourself under a full force push, let alone use the ammount of control necessary for Alternating Maces to work, if you havn't done it under full force many, many times.

Hard to say about a school from a web sight. I notice in all their pictures that they use a lot of punyo (the short end of the stick, the butt end). Most FMA's don't think this is necessary, and it shortens your reach and makes it easier to strip your weapon. But they probably have their reasons. If they are affiliated with the Dog Brothers, expect to do a lot of contact fighting, sometimes with 'live stick'. Their motto is "Higher Consciousness Through Harder Contact!"

It is anectdotal- just my opinion. I think this because I've seen and talked to no contact martial artists who've been in fights. Some won, some lost, all thought they could have done better if they'd trained with contact. Also, I've trained people for variouse high stress jobs, and worked with some of them in those jobs. I am a firm believer that you will react as you've trained when under severe stress. Those points of reference and habbits will usually assert themselves- including pulling strikes and fighting at distance. I've also fought many point sparers with light or even no contact. Many of them were technically better martial artists than me, some of them by far. But, invariably, once I got in close, I owned them- and again, this is light or no contact. The only exceptions have been those that also do contact fighting. And last, I've experienced it when running techniques. Time and again, I learn a technique cold, then fall apart when we up the level of force. Until you can perform a technique, including adjustments and spontaneouse modification or flow between techniques when things go wrong, under full force, you don't know that technique. When the level of force and contact increases, things are just not the same. I'm not saying that what you or anyone else does is worthless, or even less. But I am saying that if you want it to work in a real fight, you would do better to train it that way before the fact than to hope you can alter your strategy and skills when under severe stress. And sevenstar is right, under stress you tend to go on automatic, which is not opinion but proven and widely accepted fact.

Ohhhhh, no, don't get me started... Very true. Our bodies have a lot of ways to deal with pain in emergencies. Here's some of the problems with transfering point sparing or no contact skills to full contact: Range of motion and point of reference- when you train to lightly tap or just miss, you are training a point of reference for launching attacks, typically out farther so as not to hurt your partner and so the judges can see your strikes. At full extension/full range of motion, if you don't move this point of reference in closer, you cannot strike into your target enough to do the dammage you need to do. Some people are able to make this adjustment under pressure without training for it, but most are not. The skills are there, but they are not effectively used. Relative angles- when you do move in close, everything changes. That inward block that you spent hours compounded by months perfecting now just glances on past. Again, this is not an easy adjustment to make effectively under the pressure of a real assault. He may also turn you, tie you up, or move for positional advantage, all of which you need to learn to deal with. Timeing- changes dramatically as one or both move in to strike efectively. One TKD instructor I used to know was fond of saying that"In close, things tend to happen fast, and you'd better be the one doing them." Flinch- when you are hit with a good shot, especially to the head, there is a momentary blank period, dureing which he will most likely launch a follow up strike. This, more than pain, is what you need to learn to handle, and it has to be automatic because you will not be totally aware. Strategy- in close your guard and footwork must be altered to deal with the relative proximity and angles. Also, a whole new arsenal of strikes are brought into play, while others are de-emphasized. You also have the options to check both his base and his weapons, to take his ballance and to control his space. Strikes- strikes that actually land can hurt you more than him if not done properly, and the only way to train them properly is to actually land them on a moving, dodging target. None of these are insurmountable problems, and some may be able to make the adjustments required automatically. But it is far better to train for them ahead of time, and even the ones who can automatically adjust would, I think, do even better with training. As for full contact sport fighting, they can increase your odds in a fight dramatically. But it is one thing to mentaly prep for a fight, and step into a ring knowing your opponent wants to beat you but not disable you. It is another thing entirely to face a sudden, vicious attack by an opponent that wants to seriousely do you harm. Even the high stress reality courses can only come close. I guess the only certainty is that the harder you train, the better your chances. Again, this assumes the narrow focus of combat and self defense. Many people don't want to train for this, whch is ok too. Are their chances better than if they didn't train at all? Probably. As good as The Iceman (Lidel)? Probably not. OK, definately not. But neither are yours or mine. Does that invalidate what we do?

That's disgusting! Even I was rooting for the English in that one.

The problem both sides have here is the extreme positions you've taken. White Warlock came closest to the truth, in my ever (never?) so humble opinion. All the best training in the world will do for you is to increase your odds of surviving or comeing out on top of a real situation. That is all you can train for is to better your chances (assuming thenarrow focus of combat/self defense). There are simply no guarantees. BUT, the harder and more realistically you train, the better condition you are in, the more your knowlege and awarenes, the sharper your skills, the better your attitude and spirit, and the more you've trained for 'reality', the better your chances. The original post assumes that all schools are neatly divided into no contact and contact, when in reality many do both. It also assumes that hard sport will prepare you completely for a seriouse street altercation, and that there is no bennifit to practicing without hard contact. All these assumptions are incorrect, as are the assumptions that you are completely prepared if you don't train with contact. The truth is a matter of degrees. Nothing will fully prepare you, but you can increase your chances dramatically with training. The harder you train, and the harder the contact you train with, the better your chances.

Never heard of it. Why don't you tell us about it, maybe post some links.

'Braveheart' or 'We Were Soldiers' (both star Mel Gibson). If anyone can watch either movie without gaining an apreciation of where your freedom comes from, and the price paid for it, there is something seriously wrong with them.

We already have legislation, we just need to throw the thugs in jail instead of legislating against the responsible martial artists and law abiding citizens.

Welcome. And, we all need repition.

Welcome, BlobOn!

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to KF!

Yeah, it's a pretty nice site. Welcome, glad to have you here!

Hi! And welcome.

I thought the real 'game' in English 'football' is played by the fans. So, as a football fan, how much does your martial arts training help?

Traditional karate can be used in contact fighting, but you have to train it that way. Some of the differences you will find: Point fighting without contact developes some bad habbits. You may find that some of the blocks you got up in point fighting that saved a point really won't stop a full force strike. This is especially true with kicks. It is a completely different thing to say that, yes, a shot got in to your head, and to have that shot actually turn your head and stun you. This is especially true when no one is going to yell 'break' before the follow up lands. Often in no contact, you will think that you got a block up in time, where in actuality it caught the strike on the way out. Contact can be an eye opener here. In no contact, it is easy to get into the habbit of squareing off and trying to launch strikes from medium to long distance so that the judges can see what you threw. In contact, those shots are likely to come from closer range and a lot quicker. You learn to move the target more and the blocks are used as much to position and control the opponent as to stop anything. And in close, the relative angles change. Intent is another big difference. Most people think it is an easy transition from striking with intent to pull the punch and doing it with intent to take him out. This isn't necessarily the case, especially when you take into consideration that you are engaged in a sport that has rules. The object is not to injure your opponent, and so some shots won't be taken or allowed. You have to train with the rules of the game so that they are as much second nature as your fighting skills. Just a few thoughts. I agree that you should start with moderate contact and work up with a competent trainer or partner. Use your traditional moves, but don't be afraid to modify things as needed to make them work for you. And enjoy! Edit: I should add that I am not a sport fighter. The advice here is based on training with contact, not ring experience (and 'pblttt' to the large backside and the rest of the MT guys! ).

Bo is probably the best choice for a first weapon to study. But don't discount the practicality of the Katana. I don't study this weapon, but I have seen JMA practicioners demonstrate the relationship of the moves with a sword and some empty hands techniques. One in particular demonstrated introducing internal principles to karate and jiu-jitsu using a boken, then transfering the principles to empty hands recieving and throws. It was pretty impressive.

Guns, swords, knives, ... it isn't the weapons they are after. It is your right and your ability to defend yourself. It isn't well publicised or known, but there have been efforts in a few state legislatures to regulate/restrict martial arts schools in the US. Tennessee was the last one I heard about, a couple of years ago. Then, there are the well known court decessions convicting people for useing excessive force in self defense situations. Sometimes justified, but often completely bogus. Look at all the threads here about the law, and how to position yourself to win in court after the fight. It is a little scarry, to say the least!

Drills. Work on the drills in your systems. Start slow, and don't rush to get up to speed. Work on doing them right, then work up your speed. But never go faster than you can do the drills correctly. Pay attention to details and whole body coordination.

I'll go with the others who've said to try them out and pick the one that interests you most. Depending on the system and whether they teach what you want (the 'way', self defense, sport,...) can be a good choice. TKD can be a very effective style, and can be good at all ranges, if taught properly. I'd look at them closely, see if they do work in close as well as out at longer ranges. If so, I'd seriously consider them. If not, I wouldn't bother. Since you are 'really into' it, and you are in the PI, this would be my pick. If you just want to learn an art for its beauty or form, or are studying acting, this would be good. Otherwise, I'd go back and look at the others. Based on what you've said, and my own preferences, I'd list the priority order: 1. Arnis 2. TKD 3. Karate 4. Wushu Just my advice, but then I'm not you, and I'm not there, so take it for what it's worth. Good luck!

Without bunkai, there is no point to studying a martial art, even for health or self developement, but especially for self defense or fighting. For self developement, working applications works the mind and body together. Otherwise, all you have is a set of rote drills stored in muscle memory. Who wants to develope themselves into a robot? In Taiji, they discovered that to study just the form without studying the martial applications gave less than half the health bennifits, and actually could be unhealthy in some ways. As for combative arts, I would think that needs no explanation as to why the bunkai is a necessary part of your study. You not only need to work it, but you need to work it under as much force as you can safely do.

Probably because my family is downright ornery! My dad taught unarmed self defense for the AP's, and he taught us some of it growing up. So we allways had some interest in martial arts/fighting skills. In HS I worked out with some friends useing Bruce Tegner's books and whatever else we knew or could find. But I didn't really 'formally' start to study a martial art until several years ago when my brother and me got back together (much to everyone elses consternation). He introduced me to American Kenpo, and I've never looked back. I still look sideways at anything I can find, but it all comes back to Kenpo. Sort of like being married- you can look, but allways bring it home! So, I guess you could say that the martial arts for me is a 'family affair.'