MuayThai Fighter

How so? What people call Pankration today doesn't have a direct historical lineage to the ancient Pankration. Pankration is just used as a general term of fighting in the same spirit as the Greeks did, but usually the people training in Pankration today are just MMA fighters with certain rule set. Or am I wrong, is there someone actually teaching an art that has a direct link of teachers reaching to the old fighters of ancient Greece? The pancrece people I've met have all been just MT+BJJ+SW+SF+etc mixers. You could say samething for most karate styles and schools,because most of the masters are no longer alive.Does that mean you guys aren't learning the real thing either then? And don't forget there are several karate styles out there not just one. I believe Pankration still has something to do with the ancient Pankration even if it doesn't have a direct link to the teachers of the old fighters of ancient Greece. It is still practiced very similar to the old days,only a few things have changed about it. The two are similar just from different times Here's a quote from the 2Shoot website: And your point is?

I never said BJJ was part of Pankration,although today's Pankration could probably include that because submission wrestling and bjj and other styles of jujistu are all similar. To say thai and greek culture have never crossed is plain ignorance on your side no offense. Look up the history of Pankration and see for yourself that Pankration is an art of muay thai and submission wrestling and that the greeks came up with the idea of the two mixing. However the romans stole the style away from the greeks and made it into an extreme art of violence. Shootfighting and Pankration although from completely different times are very similar in their own way. My dojo is far from being a Mcdojo,infact my instructor knocked a guy out cold in UFC with knee kick to jaw,I got to see the fight on pay per view,it was awesome. So the next time you say something know what you're talking about first.

I agree.

Quit one style and when proffeshint with it the try the other one.Any style that involves katas can be confusing if trying two different styles.Why would you want to learn more then one at a time anyways? If you were doing MMA then that would be understandable,but two individual arts from two different schools would be very confusing. Besides why try two traditional arts? Why not keep at one of your traditional arts if that's want you want to do for now,then try MMA,see which one you like best? Then chose which one you want to stick with. If you're in martial arts specifically for self-defense though,then don't even bother with the traditional arts,just go straight to MMA.If it doesn't matter to you try both then,but not at same time. The best thing to do since you're already at 2nd kyu is just get to your black belt level,might as well, then change styles. My personal opinion.

If self-defense is really important to you in martial arts and you want something with realism no kata crap,I'd chose the Muay Thai/BJJ/Kali. Sounds like here you'd have alot of everything that's realistic, muay thai kickboxing,grappling and weapons training.

I am a Ni Dan in Okinawan Goju Ryu.Did that style for 12 yrs.even taught for 5 yrs.to children and adults. After that got sick of those damn katas and got bored needed to do something that had just fighting.

I agree with it all, except for you including kata and semi-contact as the smaller parts of a bigger picture,because I personally think katas and semi-contact are a waste of time.But that's my opinion,I don't expect anyone to agree.

I was talking about fighting standing up, with the ground as an option. And the last three sessions I've spared, i've been dumped hard at least once. I'm on a real roll . All fights don't go to the ground, but enough do. I think we agree here.. Yes I agree with you here Yes and no. How you fight is one test of skills. But I know some good fighters who don't have a clue about the principles or concepts they are using. Pure instinct honed in real fighting (not the ring) makes the best fighter. But it makes a lousy teacher, unless you too want to learn in the school of hard knocks I agree,absolutely.There are people who have never done martial arts and still kick the crap out of someone in martial arts,because of real fighting instict,however we're talking about martial here not street fighting,it's a karate forum. Katas, or forms, have a lot to do with understanding and learning to apply technique. A good form has more layers than an onion. It is one place where you have to think about and sort out all the possibilities of the moves you are doing. With minor variations, any move can do an infinate number of things. If you are just going through the motions for a test, I'd agree that they afre worthless. But that isn't "learning" a form.. It doesn't take katas to understand and learn how to apply technique.Again it doesn't take katas to sort out the possiblities of the moves you are doing. Well most martial artist do just go through the motions for a test. You can learn techniques on a person and apply them to sparring ,and what a real situation would be like.Practicing with opponent shows you different possibilities of being able to actually use the technique and allow you to create you own possibilities for exact same technique.No one technique has to be applied exactly same way as taught in class or your opponent. In my school we learn several techniques to practice on a partner the way teacher shows it,but then when use it in sparring during class we can use it same way or find a different way of using the same technique for something else. Katas only allow you to see it one ,way because katas are pre-arranged forms meaning everything is already set out for you and always practiced same way. In some karate schools sanchin will always be taught as sanchin it won't be shown in a different form otherwise the kata is no longer sanchin. Take out the word "only" and I'd agree. To really make a technique work, you have to practice and be able to do it on a resisting opponent. But there are other ways to help learn technique. Doing it in the air, early on working with a compliant opponent, and going full force on a heavy bag or dummy. That brings us to... Of course to make a technique really work you have to do it on a resisting opponent,was my whole point ,the whole time. Heavy bag or dummy is mostly for speed,power and practicing a bit of technique,most of the technique is done on a partner. Agreed. But you can't do that all the time. Most people have other things to do besides recover from last night's training rumble. Things like jobs, family activities, chasing women... . And some people are older or not that healthy. Learning how to hit and take a hit are important. But everyone has to find their own level of comfort and ability with this one. I don't understand how it would affect job,what it has to do with recovering from last night's training rumble. I never said anything about beating your opponent to pulp and sending him home with blood or hospital with broken lims. Healthwise,if your health isn't that great then go into something like tai chi which is claimed to be a martial arts,but I actually see it as away of relaxation,but that's another subject. Not by itself. But it is part of the overall equation. You have right to your opinion about katas,regardless what I say it won't change your mind so no point argueing that.Besides I'm not here to change people's minds,only to give my point of view. Remember too that the martial arts teach respect, perserverance, and a lot of other character traits. It isn't just about turning out a bunch of tough fighters, even in the reality based schools. And a lot of people take martial arts for a lot of other reasons. I think they short themselves if they overlook the fighting part of their art, but I'm not here to judge them. If they find what they are looking for without steping on the mat, then that's fine by me. I agree that "the ring", or contact fighting, is important. But it isn't the only thing that's important... Depends who you ask,I believe martial arts is meant as a fighting art,it's supposed to be about self-defense and doing your best and all reality based schools will tell you same. I do agree however that martial arts is also about respect and perseverance and alot of othe character traits. Good journey! Likewise.

I could learn pankration and still get my rearend handed to me by a TKDist if I don't take my training seriously, or if my particular flavor of training is flawed. I agree that any person who doesn't take their art seriously and train hard can get their @ss kicked,regardless of art. However if both the TKD person and the Pankrationist take their art seriously and equally train hard,the TKD person will lose. Obviously if the Pankrationist doesn't train often he will get his ass kicked by anyone,but if he does train hard,it is very unlikely he will get his butt kicked by any traditonalist or individual art. I am not saying Pankration is the only good art I just keep mentioning that one because it is what I study,but what I do believe is all MMA styles are unbeatable from traditionalists whether Pankration or not.

Best mixed arts Pankration Shooto Savate JKD Best Single stand up fighting arts MuayThai American Kickboxing Best Grappling arts: Submission Wrestling Jujitsu Aikido Judo What's your guys opinion?

A traditional art should only charge $50-$75 a month at most.That's the cost of most of thes traditional art schools,at least last time I did karate it was.

What does that have to do with anything. Cost is relative to several factors. I beleive that the heart of the matter is if you ara or were uncomfortable you need to find another school. No offense budd,but it has alot to do with it.Why would you pay $100 to learn hardly anything when you can pay that same amount and learn so much more. My point was in traditional arts such as TKD,you learn didly squat.Because the katas mean nothing,so it's much more worth it to pay $100 for MMA,since you'd learn alot more of self-defense.

Sounds like a mcdojo.Sounds to me like you have a money hungry instructor. If the worst students can pass with flying colours as you stated doesn't that alone tell you something. Testing every 2 weeks sounds brutal to me. Just does not sound right. $100/a month sounds about right for a MMA but not for a traditional art,no offense,especially TKD. Is your instructor at least well known?

Some argue it is the style and others say it is the individual that determines how good a person will turn out,should they decide to compete. The answer to that is both are equally important,you can train very hard to be a good fighter but if your style is not based on fighting it won't do any good and the same is the other way around. In my opinion if competition is the way you want to go,then a MMA is the the root to follow,and how hard the individual trains also counts. Styles do matter when it comes to fighting in competition. Take a tradtionalist and put him in the ring against an MMA,and 9 out of 10x the MMA will win. Reason being is although MMA learn techniques like any other style they are based on fighting,it's as simple as that. Some styles just aren't made for fighting. Think of it this way,would you put a BMW car on a race track? of course not.why they're still cars right?Well obviously because a BMW isn't meant for racing. Same goes for martial arts,whether traditional or a MMA they're both still martial arts,but you couldn't expect to put a traditionalist against a MMA using full contact rules and expect the traditionalist to win,it will never happen or very unlikely anyways.Traditional arts just aren't meant for fighting.Until traditionalists wake up and realize that there will always be disagreements and arguement about this. Everyone claims to have the best style,but traditionalist rarely are willing to back it up,where as different styles of MMA are willing to because we know that we will win. I've read that true martial artists don't need to fight in ring to prove themselves and to get trophies. Well it's true that not everyone is interested in competeing but the only way to find out how good you and your style really are is by challenging other styles. Just because a martial artist competes it doesn't make him any less of a martial artist,infact it makes him more of one.Of course the trophies aren't important,because it's not about winning or losing it is about putting your style and yourself to test whether you win or not and about having fun. Should you win though it proves that you are a better fighter then your opponent.The way you train is the way you'll fight in competition,traditionalists don't train the same way as MMA which makes them lack in knowledge of fighting. Traditionalists believe that the hidden techniques in their katas are very effective as both a way of training their mind,body and spirit but at same time helping them to be a better fighter from improvement of their forms.They feel the better they can perform the techniques of kata the better prepared they can be if they are ever to be attacked and need to protect themselves,which just isn't so. One thing I do respect about traditionalists is though that they really believe in what they train in and work hard at what they do,whether us MMA find it realistic or not and don't care what others believe and say. To me the only thing katas really do is build co-ordination,balance,posture,focus,direction all which all styles teach anyways,all of these are important to be a better fighter,but there is a right and wrong way to go about it for the sake of competition. If a martial artist doesn't care for competiton and does do TMA then how they train really isn't important and neither is crossed training.

Very good question. If a person uses muay thai and bbj together they are using pankration whether they realize it or not, because bbj is very similar to submission wrestling ,which is part of Pankration.However if they are practicing it individually then no it's not Pankration,it only is when used together in fighting.

I agree grappling is fun.If your goal is to do more self-defense,then doing kata or point sparring do a mixed martial arts,it's the best for fighting in tournaments,however because mma fights tend to be more aggressive then other arts it is better to fight in ring. Try something like Pankration,Shooto,Savate etc.they are mixed martial arts styles. I do pankration,less rules then in traditional arts and we never do forms. It includes grappling combined with muay thai kickboxing,it will help improve your fighting skills alot quicker then doing karate or tae kwon do,especially since you already have some grappling experience.

That's pretty funny,but I happen to agree 100%. I would rather break the law by doing some serious damage to the person then my opponent doing harsh damage to me. Besides what difference will it make once you are in jail anyways.In the joint you may have to fight too to defend your life or have big babba do you up the butt. LOL

If he has a group of friends surrounding you,you're crazy to fight him back,just give him what he wants.One on One or Two on one that's a different story.

I find punching the heavy bag improves speed in my punches.

Hey, MuayThai fighter, how common is your style? I've never heard of it (not that that's saying much ), and it sounds interesting. I'm absolutely in love with Muay Thai, and this sounds pretty damn cool! It's a very old style but it changes as time goes by it doesn't believe in keeping to tradition like other styles.However it isn't too common since it was banned for centuries due to how aggressive it was and still is,it's only now coming back into existance. Alot of people in last few years have heard of Pankration,but there aren't too many areas that teach Pankration yet.

So then you view the martial arts as a sport? Here I must agree that we disagree. If you train in the martial arts for sports then you are an athlete. Micheal Jordan played for what reasons? I guess he can only answer that, but I can guess that among other reasons it was for fame, money, and to prove he was the best. Which is the point in sports. There is a winner and a loser. There are points and trophies. Micheal Jordan and Lennox Lewis have nothing to do with what I am saying. Like I said, they did it for reasons alien to true martial artists. As for Mas Oyama, the japanese are well known for not taking offenses or challenges to anything domestic lightly. I'm not arguing pro-TMA. I don't really care what is said about TMA being effective, &c. I'm saying those who are studying the martial arts and not some sport will not find themselves in a ring, because they don't care what other people think about them. They don't need publicity, fame, fortune, good advertising, or to prove to themselves that, hey! they can win a contest, because these things are worthless to someone who is out to become a martial artist. All that matters is the crucial moment when your life depends on it. You train and train and hope that day never comes. You are a martial artist because you take the defense of your own life into your hands and put that responsibility into no one eles's. You are not a martial artist because you want to go into a ring and beat chests against other martial artist so you can, Lo and behold! I'm better than you! My martial art is better than yours! Haha!! Look at me! I can fight!! C'mon! Tell me I'm a good fighter. And as for some people talk and others like to back their talk up, that's the useless drivel of an adolescent mind. Only fools want to prove they're tougher than someone else, not martial artists. You want tough contests go back to secondary school. Martial artists are striving for something higher than that, something more personal and much, much more powerful than simply being able to defeat other people trying to boost their egoes in a ring. Do I think Royce Gracie fought anyone of respectable skill? No. How can I say that? Because I saw those fights. I have been in fights across this vast rock of a planet and I can say those fights were ridiculous to the point of school children jumping on each other and fighting. I don't care if you don't agree with that. I know enough that we don't see eye to eye about certain things. I'm not here to even try to preach to you or even convince you of what I'm saying. So, whether you agree with me or not, is irrelevant. Now, do I think real martial artists of skill will ever participate in a NHB fight? No. Because it's not upon their path for martial perfection. Contests of skill prove nothing. So what if you can beat up a bunch of guys in the ring. All I care about is doing it when it counts for life or death. I am more than confident I can do such. I have proven such and am alive because of it. So, I don't need someone claiming that what they watch on TV is gospel, because frankly, gospel it is not. Then again, I guess it doesn't matter, does it? Because, ol' Royce and all the other NHB guys are in the ring showing off and I'm not. I guess that makes me something less of a fighter, then? Or maybe it means that what I do doesn't somehow really work? Wow! I guess then I should go back to every fight I have been in here in the US and in the jungles of the Philippines and look them over and say, "You know what, TJS is right. Royce knew his *. Boy, was I wrong! Boy, I don't anything about the martial arts unless I compete in a contest." Well, it doesn't matter, really it doesn't. You won't see it my way, and I definitely don't see it yours. But, for me, that's fine. I'm not trying to preach "Follow me!" nor am I trying to convert you to my way of thinking. But I guess that's something you won't see about me. Perhaps you think I'm a stylist? Or a TMAist? Or even a MMAist? How about none? I'm a simple martial artist. I'll let you figure that out for yourself. MA. Forgive the ramblings of a lost soul... So if someone wants to compete and show his worth ,he's only an athlete in sports.HHHHHHMMMMMM,Sounds pathetic to me,why can't a person in martial arts who competes be considered as both an athlete and someone in martial arts?.Basically you're saying competitions are only for sports. So are Lenix Lewis,and Mike Tyson not boxers,just athletes in sports,because they fight infront of the world to prove their worth instead of just training as boxers? Talking about Royce Gracie and Mas Oyama,I guess them showing their abilities to the world doesn't make them martial artists,just athletes in sports. I think Michael Jordan and Lennox Lewis were good points,after all you did say "to prove he was the best. Which is the point in sports. There is a winner and a loser. There are points and trophies. " From what I understand is that proving to be the best and having trophies and being a winner or loser only has to do with sports. Interesting,so UFC ,Sabaki challenge are a cage of men doing sports not doing martial arts.Last I heard these were competitions of martial artists putting their knowledge and experience as well as their style to the test.If this isn't the case then I guess I've been watching the wrong stuff for martial arts. There are winners and losers as well as trophies in several things not just sports. Answer this,do you consider these singers and movie stars who go and get an award athletes? I've never heard anyone compare acting and singing to a sport. You said "I'm saying those who are studying the martial arts and not some sport will not find themselves in a ring". I guess Royce Gracie and Dan Savern aren't martial artists then since they can be found fighting in a ring at UFC,is what you are basically saying. If they're not martial artists,I'd like to see you try and fight them,they'd kick your @ss. But I guess, since fighting is only a sport,I guess you'll never have to worry about that. People who say b.s of true martial artists not needing to fight in ring to prove themselves, only say that as an excuse for not getting beaten up.[/b]

I am not an angry person at all. I am comparing a traditional stylist who trains the same amout of hours per week to a mma stylist.

I have been in Pankration about 5 yrs.now,however when I first took it ,it seemed weird because I was used to a different kind of training,since it was karate I originally did.Within 6-12 months I learnt a hell of alot more in self-defense/street-defense then I did in my previous 12yrs.of karate. I had a pretty good karate teacher however,but because Pankration teaches actual fighting it takes less time to become a good fighter,maybe not a proffessional fighter, but compared to most if not all black belts in other styles I'd say we would be equal or better fighters. By the time we reach third level in our style which is orange like in karate(but instead of belts we wear t-shirts)we are expected be able to beat a black belt of any style, if we can't,we won't be able to test for next level until we can.Our training is much harder then in traditional for that reason. You say 6 months to a year of training in any open hand martial arts is nothing compared to 4-5 yrs.more,but you say that because you do traditional arts,until you try a mixed martial arts fighting system you won't know the truth. I was never lead to believe that in 6 months I would be a fighting machine,and never was sold,I'm going by my own experience not by what some school told me.I noticed a huge difference in my fighting ability once I stopped doing traditional arts and their katas and started to an art that specifically concentrates on fighting. I don't train for trophies either,I train because I want to keep in shape and also because I love fighting,it's not the trophies that make me happy it's the feeling I get when I go in the ring and do my best. How do you know what you are capable of if you never put your martial arts knowledge to the test? Doing good at katas doesn't let you know that you're good at sparring.Only way to find out is by actually fighting in the ring. If you don't care about the fighting aspect of martial arts then there is nothing to worry about,because in that sense then there is nothing wrong with traditional arts. I'm not assuming that person I fight will be a mindless twit,I am going by knowledge,experience and common sense. No need for those sites,I have read them before and know what they say. It's true Pankration is a sport because of our importance in competition,however some people in Pankration don't compete in tournaments,but because of the way our art teaches they will still become very good fighters. As far as Pankration being designed for a ring environment is not necessarily true.If a pankrationist wants to compete ,which most do ,then yes it is meant for ring because we only fight full contact,which is the way to go.After all on the street there is no pulling back on punches,everything is contact. At same time Pankration is also designed as street-defense. When it comes to a competition,we may change a few things just so we don't kill anyone or send anyone to the hospital permanently,but in class Pankration is taught as a street-defense, with some rules added obviously, either way Pankration and other mixed arts will always be the closest to a real fight. MMA styles have fewer rules then traditional arts,which brings us closer to a real fight.Take away our few rules and judges and you do have a real fight or brawl if you want to call it that. Back to you saying Pankration is a sport,that may be true to an extent but we're also a martial arts. We still follow some of the same rules such as bowing to instructors upon entering and leaving,showing respect to other students,and no starting fights inside or outside of class.But should we be attacked we are taught to fight no mercy,until knockout or until our opponent gives up.

First of all I'm stating my opinion not offending anyone unless you take it the wrong way. Second I have not once called other styles stupid,what I did was say what the difference is between traditional asian arts and pankration as far as self-defense.Do not forget I did say that not all people do martial arts for same reason,I also did say traditional arts aren't about fighting where as Muay Thai is,but never said traditional in itself was stupid. I did however say traditional was useless depending on what you want to do with it,if it is for self-defense then it is,however if it isn't then traditonal arts is fine. You're right Muay Thai isn't the only style that uses knees,grabs etc.I was just giving that as an example,however Muay Thai was the first art to ever use knees,any style that uses knees today incorporated the knee kicks from muay thai into their style. As far as I know muay thai is the only style that uses elbows,well I know they were also the ones who came up with the idea originally. I don't know what katas are for!!!!!!!! No of course not,I only did them for several years.Sarcasm. I of course know what katas are for.You like most other traditionalists don't believe in change just because of what your sensei tells you and how the masters practiced and are brain washed into believeing your styles are good for self-defense when they're not,however they are good for co-ordination,balance,focus,posture,body conditioning and great way to express yourself.So I'm not going to say katas are completely useless,it just depends on what you expect from them,just don't expect too much. I never said Muay Thai or Pankration was the best although I know it is one of the best.Any art that is same or similar to mine is the best,IF FIGHTING IS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

Okay,without offending anyone I can easily explain this. I believe no traditional style can be used effectively used,because the katas are pre-arranged movements where as in Pankration you learn techniques that are not pre-arranged and all techniques in Pankration are practiced on a person for fighting.We don't do forms or stupid little drills with partner going across the floor. Face it we all love our training and train for different reasons and I respect that, but the fact is we train to fight,traditional arts train in fancy techniques to better improve their katas and for point and semi-contact sparring and like to stick to traditional ways,doing everything the way the masters before them did it,or it wouldn't make sense to call it traditinal arts. After all is kata not the essence of karate and other traditional arts? Last I heard it was. Where as the goal of Pankration and other mixed styles is to fight to submission or knock out. There is a huge difference between training to fight for street or full contact tournament and doing katas, fighting for point or semi-contact. Since we train to fight and in a real situation it's full contact,no pulling back on punches,that's exactly how we practice in Pankration.We're used to getting hit extremely hard and hitting back just as hard. In Pankration fights grappling gloves are used instead of sparring gloves,no shin or foot pads are used and no head gear,just mouth guard,so it makes it a tougher fight and more brutal.It's much closer to the real thing than traditional arts. Also in the katas, punches come from the waist and yet is not done like that in sparring so why practice it. In a sparring match or even in real life you don't have time for fancy kicks and punches as taught in traditional styles.Like in TKD,you wouldn't be able to do one of their flying jump kicks in real life,you'd end up dead.In karate you couldn't use your stances in a real life situation.Go in a shiko dachi (horse stance)and I would either sweep your legs from under you,shin kick you hard,or kick you in groin as hard as I could.But none of that matters in traditional arts because the goal of a traditionalist isn't fighting anyways. Also the blocks of Traditional arts are not very good for actual blocking,it's no wonder people in these arts move side to side,continuously switch legs opposite of their partner ,because most don't know how to block properly, can't go straight in to hit,because of fear of getting hit hard. After all 9 out of 10 x times the way a martial artist, automatically reacts when put in a real life fighting situation is the way they have been trained and since we train to fight it is important to us.Improper training can mean losing. Also in Pankration we do both stand up and grappling,if you only know stand up and taken to ground,you're in trouble. Pankration has more options to use,in Traditional arts knees and shin kicks are not used unless the instructor has incorporated the kicks of muay thai into their system.Kicking with top of foot can be damaging to oneself.Also in Pankration depending on country,you can also use elbows,unfortunately not in Canada. Pankration being the closest thing to a real fight allows a person to shin kick and knee kick full force to both head,face,and body which traditional styles would never allow.We can also take our opponent down and do chokes,arm bars,ankle locks,knee locks,wrist locks,neck cranks etc.and Pankration allows punching to head even when opponent is on ground,basically with Pankration everything goes until person taps or gets knocked out,and all this is done without boxing gloves and head gear. The less rules a martial arts has the more brutal and closer it is to a real fight.Traditional arts has way too many rules limiting their ability to become a good experienced fighter. But as I have previously mentioned fighting/street defense is not important for the traditionalist,even if they do learn some self-defense techniques. For all these reasons,is why as far as self-defense is concerned it takes such short amount of time to learn how to fight effectively in Pankration compared to the 4-5 yrs.of training in traditional arts.