MuayThai Fighter

Especially when one has no idea how it's supposed to be used. I have used it several times in self defence and it works when used appropriately. That's why there's kata in karate, kata is the book that tells you how it is used. But most modern styles can't read the kata and think it is used similar to boxing's cross punch and then they wonder why they got smoked. And this establishes it further: you have no idea what constitutes kata training. Kata training also contains partner drills (yakusoku kumite) and free sparring (jiy kumite). If you didn't know that, then you got your kata/karate instruction from a source who didn't know what they were doing. I definitely know what I'm talking about did karate for 12yrs.I didn't always do Pankration. The katas are pre-arranged movements of techniques done in air,then there are the drills that are practiced and sparring as you stated but each one is a different part of karate.Drills and free sparring are not part of katas,each one is an individual part of karate. Kata is the essence of karate,which I find is pointless.Well if the karate punches from waist work for you it is pure luck,and one day you will run out of that luck.It wouldn't work against most people even against an untrained person. Even when using a punch from karate appropriately,as long as it is coming from waist you leave the rest of your body open as a target. I know that however in karate they don't spar that way,but why practice in kata your punches differently from how you would use them in a match or even in real life?Practice the way you would actually punch is the way it should be done. Besides the punches, all karate stances are also useless.

I agree to an extent,you are correct that fighting to the ground isn't the only important thing,I never said it was,however it is the most important thing for true well rounded martial arts fighter.After all most stand up fights eventually go to the ground even in real life. Basic skill and knowledge and understanding are important,because if you don't have the knowledge or understanding of techniques you won't be able to use them in sparring not properly anyways and your fighting ability will be limited.However I do believe once you have the knowledge and understanding of your techniques the ring is the only way to prove it. I also believe katas have nothing to do with it and shouldn't even be a part of the martial arts,because proper knowledge and understanding of techniques doesn't come from katas.You can do all the katas in the world,even know the bunkai,and it's going to do crap in the ring. To properly learn techniques,they should only be shown and practiced on another person to fully understand the techniques and to be able to apply them properly. So for example if I wanted to teach you how to punch properly,I would show you on a student , then get the students to practice on one another,instead of practicing techniques in the air and going across the floor.All techniques should be practiced only on a partner and once in awhile on shields for power and speed. To be a good fighter you have to know what it is like to hit something,get hit hard and to hit back.Punching,kicking and practicing blocks in air through katas just doesn't cut it for being a good fighter.

Use a weapon against any style not just Muay Thai and we'd all lose except the guy with the weapon,that 's an obvious statement.However on the street how many of the traditional weapons could actually be used in a real fight? The bo would never be used but of course using a board found on street could be used in same way to block or strike so I would say that is a good weapon to learn,provided you'd be fighting against a knife or someone else with a board. No one carries a tonfa or sai with them and never could use a piece of wood in same way to block a knife.On the street there is no time to get all fancy and it's not about showing off some cool techniques. Now use a gun,and whether you know martial arts or not you can kiss your life good bye. What's my point? My point is it's useless to bring up weapons even from kali,because it is obvious you're not going to use a weapon in the ring or any sparring match.An unarmed person against any armed person will lose in most cases. In most street fights a weapon still today is hardly ever used anyways ,just because the media makes it sound like it happens all the time or more often now then before doesn't mean it is really that serious,infact knives being used in a fight is mainly used by teenagers who want to act tough infront of their friends or belong to a gang. Fighting unarmed is more a part of the street then with weapons.Infact some fights are fought 5 or more on one these days without weapons,however even that is rare unless you're in your teens or early 20's. So I would say that the ring is as close as you will get to the real thing and is the best place to prove your skills. Besides the forum has nothing to do with fighting with weapons.

"As far as being in the ring, it's the closest thing available to being able to test your skills in the street, and while they are not the same animal, the skills techniques you learn to apply in the ring WILL transfer into the street - learning how to deal with taking a hit and the adrenaline rush, hitting a fully resisting opponent at full speed, etc. These are things that you WILL NOT learn from semi contact sparring and self defense drills." I totally agree with you here,it has been my point the whole time.

Well some techniques just would never work as a self-defense that's why.No offense to TKD practisioners but their high kick would never work in a real situation,just looks cool,by the time they jump and turn they could be smoked in back. A karate punch from the waist is not worth practicing,won't do much good as self-defense. There are several types of punches that will work in a mixed style,like pankration,and shooto where they have the punches of boxing and then kicks and grappling added. My point is some styles are better then others,it's a fact that most martial artists can't face. A mixed martial arts is the best,because it's the closest to a real fight. Think about it,most fights involve punching and kicking but they also end up on the ground,so knowing both grappling and stand up is important.Learning to stay on your feet is good,but so is learning to defend yourself ,should you be taken to ground. When it comes to the real thing,you either kick the crap out of him or he does it to you. To learn how to fight ,you have to fight,only thing that will help is sparring not katas. If all martial arts styles were equal for self-defense you would get several more styles in UFC,but many styles like karate,tkd,kung fu etc.know they'd never last in the ring more then a few seconds.That's the reason only mixed martial artists fight in UFC or Sabaki challenge etc. I know people here who are stubborn will never agree but that's because people don't like to face the facts and will no matter what stick up for their style. With some styles it would take a life time for techniques to be practiced enough to be effective where as with other arts you can become a better figher in a short time,like a year,sometimes less. Well you're right martial arts does teach to not start fights but unfortunately many do anyways.I don't start fights I finish them.LOL

That's because tai chi isn't a real martial arts it is just meant for relaxation,spiritual and healing purposes although some claim it as a self-defense,which I find hard to believe. There is no way tai chi can be a fighting art,it's more like a dance but used for relaxation,which is one reason many older people take it.I'm not saying they are the only ones though.

Good point but answer this one question"why would someone want to study an art that would take years before becoming an effective self-defense,if they can learn an art that is effective in just a few months to a year? For example:in Pankration a person can become an awesome fighter after just a year, infact sometimes only after a few months,since our main goal is learning to fight,so why would someone take an art like karate or tkd,that would take years before becoming effective enough to use as a self-defense?If it is self-defense you want to learn.Wouldn't you want to become a good fighter in a short amount of time instead of waiting forever?

HA HA HA HA HA,you're hilarious.Good point though,never thought of it like that.Gotta love those bikin girls. Anyways,of course it's not exactly like a street fight no martial arts is,but some arts are closer to the real thing then others and Pankration is the closest to a real fight.Take away the judges and rules and you have a real fight. You are being unrealistic though,chances of a gang jumping in the ring to jump you is 0%,I can understand on the street though.Anyone who tries to fight a gang on their own regardless of martial arts and experience is an idiot. The chances of being attacked by gang even on the street is very low unless you yourself belong to a gang or did something to piss them off in first place.Gang members usually go after other gang members so why even bring that up. When a fight is 5 or more on one,it is usually among teens at least here in Canada anyways. One on one whether in ring or in a real fight the Pankration fighter will win almost every time. The less rules a Pankration fighter has to follow the more deadly he becomes, so on the street where there is no rules his chances of winning a fight is very high.

I've heard of it.Savate is similar to Pankration and shooto fighting.Unlike the others Savate throws strikes to blur and confuse opponent instead of actual punches,but they do kicks of kickboxing and will shoot in on opponent to take down and wrestle to submittion just like in Pankration and shooto.

Hey bud I do Pankration,sorry to have to tell you this but kung fu has no relation to this art. Pankration is a greek martial arts that is true.It is the combination of Muay Thai kickboxing and submission wrestling. Having muay thai involved, it's kicks are unique as we kick with shins instead of top of foot like other traditional asian arts do. The techniques of Pankration: Jabs,right cross,hooks,upper cuts,knees to body or head from clinche,shin kicks to thigh,back of leg or head,foot sweeps,throws,reversals,arm bars,knees bars,ankle locks,elbow locks,wrist locks,many of the grappling techniques are done from guard,mount,side body,and reverse side body.Punching opponent on ground is also allowed. These are only a few of the techniques involved in Pankration. Pankration fighters wear no boxing gloves,no shin pads and no head gear only mouth guard and grappling gloves.

That Kouk Sun Do is nothing new,it's a martial arts mostly based on spirituality.It concentrates on mind,body and soul.Taking your mind further then one would usually find impossible.It involves alot of meditation. If I am correct it teaches very little self-defense,of what self-defense it does teach is a bit of TKD. Follows example of Taoist. I myself have never done it,but I've heard of it.

Getting out of a submission is possible,but in most cases if not all it is pure luck,once you have a submission done you it's not easy to get out of,especially if you have your back turned to your opponent or lieing on your front. It's cool when you are able to submit your opponent though.My favourite submissions are triangle chokes,reverse chokes, paint brush,and arm bars. I love the grappling in Pankration and being able to do submissions,however I'm a better stand up fighter,as I'm sure you've guessed by my username.

I totally agree.

Actually I can argue that,because that is where you are wrong,boxing has never been and will never be considered more dangerous then Pankration even in the early Olympics.Boxing may have been around before Pankration,but that I'm not sure of,however I do know the romans were impressed by Pankration at the very beginning because of its various ranges of fighting. You are right Muay Thai originally had nothing to do with Pankration,however there was still fighting from standing up and taking person to ground,adding a few skills by adding MuayThai and Submission Wrestling is what made it as it is today,but the idea still came from the Greeks. Perhaps the romans got rid of it eventually in their Olympics but it did eventually disappear completely even from the greeks who invented the art. Another thing you are wrong about is victory was not determined by submission it was determined by death,since it was around the same time as the gladiators,today it is determined by submission. Only the rules have changed not the art.The art has only improved. Next Pankration is still practiced with no equipment other then mouth guard and grappling gloves.In Pankration head gear,boxing gloves and shin pads are not used,depending on rules of the country. In Canada we don't use the boxing gloves,head gear,or shin pads in Pankration fights,we only use those if we're fighting Muay Thai by itself.It is true we don't grab groin or break fingers,but that's only because we're more civilized these days.However if we did it would be more dangerous. We can still punch opponent on ground until he taps out or gets knocked out. My point is Pankration although it may have a few more rules then back then, it still has very few rules, and less then other styles . Shows how little you know about Pankration.

Yes Pankration in a sense is traditional however it does change with the times which is why I don't call it traditional and also to show the difference between the old asian arts and those of today whether they have progressed or not. Pankration has always and will always be effective for real fighting due to its constant progression with the times and it being a mixed martial arts of true combat. You're absolutely right the techniques in martial arts are just tools,however it is only realistic tools that will help someone to be a true fighter.Teaching a person correctly by giving him the right tools is different from giving a person tools to fighting that are just simply unrealistic. The same is as teaching a baby to walk.Moving his/her legs are the tools for walking but if you don't teach a baby how to properly use his legs,he will never walk correctly. A person developes the proper skills,the mind,body and will power through proper training,confidence and determination. If skills weren't important for a fighter in martial arts then anyone could do martial arts and win in a fight. Katas and point sparring are not tools to becoming a proper fighter, if you're talking about full contact or self-defense on street. It is only through proper training can one develope the skills of a true martial arts fighter,which then leads to more confidence and determination. you asked "if Pankration is ancient Greek then how is it a combination of Muay Thai and submission wrestling?" A very good question,seemed strange to me first time I heard that too. Muay Thai and Submission Wrestling although not greek arts of combat,it is the greeks that came up with the idea of mixing the two,realising that an effective martial arts needs training in both stand up and grappling.They knew that Muay Thai on its own was considered the most brutal of all arts and very dangerous for stand up fighting anyways,and figured mixing it with grappling would make it even more effective. Pankration was so deadly that the gov't at one time took it out of the early Olympics and even banned the art all together, only now is it coming back to existance and slowly spreading every where around the world,soon to be once again recognized in Olympics again. Today it is practiced just as it was back then but with more skill and some rules as well as some changes and adding new stuff all the time,making the art more effective and dangerous to use then ever, if it were to be used on street.

In Pankration (combination of Muay Thai and Submission Wrestling)a greek art of combat dating as far back as the time of the gladiator days has come back after having been banned for centuries. An example of how Pankration is compared to traditional asian arts. In most arts it takes about 4yrs to get to black belt and about 10 to really be close to effective,even then most of the techniques from the katas are never going to be as effective as one from these arts have been made to believe. In Pankration,it takes only 6 months to a year to be able to be an effective fighter and equal that of a black belt of other styles that take several years,sometimes even to be able to beat a black belt,keeping us ahead of the game.For this reason Pankration is becoming the current and future art to be studied. How is it Pankrationist can be so much ahead? Simple,we train to fight both for the ring and for the street.Other styles train for various reasons and are a way of expressing themselves through kata.It is true that many karate kas for example also sparr,however it is for points,where as in MuayThai and Submission wrestling it is to the point of being knocked out,choked or tapping out just as would be expected in a real situation,except we still follow rules,but not as limited as in traditional arts. Traditional arts simply is not a real martial arts,it is without a doubt still an art though.The word "martial" is a word used for combat,and traditional arts although originally invented for those reasons,simply would not work in reality and just became a part of the Japanese tradition and tradition of many other countries and is simply missunderstood for being an art of self-defense. For traditionalists to claim their art is the best in self-defense and sparring is simply just not true and is in the mind of most of them,who would like to believe it is true. No doubt traditional arts can be fun if it's what you're into,but as far as self-defense,only full contact arts will work.However not everyone does martial arts for fighting. This is all based on MY experience and opinion,others may disagree due to their own experience and opinion,so do NOT take what I have said as an offense. If you disagree with everything and want to argue it please do so POLITELY without any name calling or swearing. This place is only for opinions,debate and discussion purposes.

I have never done TKD before but from what I have been told by those who have,it only takes 2yrs. to become black belt and to be considered a master,never heard of it taking 4yrs..That's why I always laugh when someone tells me they have a black belt in TKD.Any art where you can get a black belt in 2yrs. is a joke as far as I am concerned. Maybe at your dojo it takes 4-5yrs,but I have never heard of that for TKD dojo before. I know in karate it take four to five years though.It took me fours years to get my black belt in Goju Ryu,with hard training 5-6x a week. In Pankration it takes 7 + years to get to black level,but it takes 1yr. of Pankration to equal that of a black belt in any other style,that's because we concentrate specifically on sparring for tournaments and also concentrate specifically on street-defense.

I would assume Thai wrestling is stand up wrestling done from muay thai clinch as done in Pankration.

There is a difference betweening winning and proving yourself.I never said a person has to win all his/her fights to prove themselves.However showing your techniques and being able to handle yourself in a full contact fight whether you win or not can show how good you are. Whether you lose in a karate tournament or muay thai tournament,chances are you still did better as a muay thai fighter. When a person retires from the ring I wouldn't say his /her self-worth diminishes,because by then you've done what you wanted and needed to do,also you can teach instead of fighting or take up another art of realistic defense.When I stop fighting in ring,I will probably just teach or take up something else. When you are older you don't usually care about competeing anymore or what is realistic and what isn't anyways, so in that case the fighting means nothing,but when you're younger it does or should anyways.

I like my style Pankration because we learn to fight and avoid katas.We get straight to the point. I like the fact that we learn both Muay Thai and Grappling(submission wrestling),making us the most rounded martial arts. Fight,Fight,Fight,Fight,is what we're all about.Full contact no holds barred fights. I like the fact that we can use basically anything from shin kicks,knees to head and body,jabs,hooks,chokes from stand up and ground,throws,take downs,ankle locks,knee locks,elbow locks,etc.and can even punch opponent on ground.Almost everything goes just as would be in a real situation.Now to me that's a martial arts.

If some one tries to use open hand strike on me they better hope to God I don't get hold of their hands because first thing I would do is crack their fingers. You get more power from a punch then an open hand strike. Realistically speaking most people would use their punches over a open hand strike only time I would fight with my hands open is for grabbing or grappling but to strike to head or to punch some one in jaw or nose,I'd rather punch someone knowing it is going to hurt them more. monkeygirl EDIT: keep name-calling (even hypothetically) out of it

If you want an all round experience in martial arts take a mixed martial arts like muay thai and grappling together,after a short while you'd be able to prove yourself in the ring and it would mean alot more then your semi-contact sparring and fancy techniques and give your black belt level a brand new meaning.With all rounded martial arts,it is easy to adapt to any situation whether in stand up or on ground.

There's a huge difference between white belt and black belt in karate and other traditional arts but in reality what does any belt really mean? In most traditional arts black belt means the technique in doing katas has improved by alot from time you started and you know enough to teach,and most karate kas at any level can do point sparring. However when it comes to the ring how good is their belt level? In my opinion the real belt is in the ring,that's where you truely get to show how good you have become with not just techniques learnt from katas but techniques learnt from traing for full contact sparring in class.In fact I think katas are useless and should be taken out. A grading should be based on how hard you train and your ability to apply the techniques you have learnt for a real sparring match. So when it comes down to it the real test and belt is from the ring. Any one agree here?

Well since you've been doing Muay Thai which is the best and most effective stand up art in the world,why not try Pankration. Pankration incase you don't know what it is,is an art that combines Muay Thai with Grappling(submission wrestling or jujitsu-depending on school). I do Pankration and it's alot of fun. In Pankrtion fights you start off from Muay Thai fighting to finishing fight on ground. Some techniques are,shin kicks to thigh or back of leg and to head,knees to body and head,jabs,hooks,foot sweeps,throws,take-downs,chokes,arm bars,knee locks,elbow locks,ankle locks,wrist locks.etc. and punching from both stand up and ground is allowed.Those are only a few of the techniques used. If you have ever seen no holds barred fighting such as in UFC you will know what I mean.

Muay Thai is the best stand up fighting art in the world,but is useless for grappling just as jujitsu and submission wrestling etc are useless without some Muay Thai or other striking art. A fighter with experience in Muay Thai and Grappling will most times come out the winner. Anyone who has been shin kicked by a thai boxer knows how effective of a stand up art it is.