MuayThai Fighter

The shin kick may be most associated with muay thai, but it is not unique to them, and never was. So? Kicking with the instep is done for safety, it hurts less. In point sparring that is what is used as well. You don't have to be a genious to figure out kickink with the shin hurts more. Elbows and knees have always been a part of other arts, this can be seen in documents dating back further then Muay Thai, did Muay Thai steal knees from the Okinawans? or was it the Chinese... Japanese... Indonesians? Greeks? Europeans? Does that mean you took them from another art? or just that that is a good way to kick and will turn up when you study kicking to any level? And Muay Thai has developed those to a high level and brought them into the spotlight, but they are not unique to Muay Thai, never where. You can say whatever you want,but Muay Thai Fighters are the ones that originally invented the knee and shin kicks and came up with the idea of elbow strikes in martial arts.This is why MuayThai is unique.You're wrong it was unique to us and always will be. Traditional artists like yourself,don't like to admit it,and claim it not to be kicks and elbow strikes of Muay Thai. Read the article I pasted earlier and see for yourself. The article tells you that other styles like karate and tae kwon do started to use the unique shin kicks of MuayThai because many martial artists started to notice its effectiveness. Also check out this Muay Thai website if interested: http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/

Our roundhouses use the ball of the foot usually. We also use the shins for broad general targets, but when focusing on pressure points or vulnerable areas it's just too big a weapon sometimes. Back in Hapkido we would actually spar using the top of the foot instead in order to lessen the chances of us severely hurting each other. Ya so you guys use muay thai round house kicks as well as traditional martial arts round house kicks,because as I stated before the use of the shins as weapons came from MuayThai and Hapkido uses the top of foot. In muay thai we never use top of foot only the shins for our round house kicks. We also use our knees which other styles don't use unless they've also incorporated those kicks. We do use ball of foot like all styles do when applying a lead leg front or straight rear kick or when doing a side kick. Our most effective kicks are however the shin and knee kicks.

In several of my previous threads I brought up MuayThai being the best stand up art and eventually had thread closed,because too many people disagreed and would argue that,which cause many fights and insults in the threads and everyone claiming their art to be the better one. Infact I wouldn't doubt it if people eventually got sick of my claim,because they were either in denial,truly believed their art to be the best or just didn't have enough proof for them to realize the truth of muay thai. Well now here is some proof I found on the web,read it,enjoy it,and weap if you have to.LOL. But don't get mad. Please read what I've pasted and then give your opinion. Muay Thai is a style of "kickboxing" which utilizes hands, elbows, kicks, knees, and stand-up grappling known as clinching. It is the oldest style of "kickboxing" and undisputedly the most brutal. It originated in Thailand (formerly known as Siam) long ago and today it is a sport practiced at the global level. In the Western hemisphere, "kickboxing" was first influenced by Far Eastern Arts such as Karate and Tae Kwon Do from Japan and Korea respectively. However, in the 1970s and 1980s, through competition with Thai fighters, it was consistently proven that Muay Thai was the dominant style in the ring. Consistent means much more than one or two matches. The kicks of Muay Thai were harder and the impact of the knees, elbows, and clinching were devastating to the other styles of "kickboxing". As a result, kickboxers began to replace the karate and tae kwon do techniques with the techniques of Muay Thai. Today, one can see that kickboxers will most often kick with their rear leg using the shin as the striking surface. That is the powerful Muay Thai kick that kickboxers now consistently use as a dominant weapon in the ring. When such transition took place, the West divided into two major groups which confused the heck out of today's kickboxing fans. The Europeans basically adopted the name Muay Thai, especially in France and Holland. Their kickboxers now practice Muay Thai - there was little or no confusion in Europe. The United States and Japan however, adopted Muay Thai techniques but kept the generic name "kickboxing". In my first article, Muay Thai - The Belt is in the Ring, I go into more details as to why this was so. Because of this, it was never clearly defined that kickboxers were now replacing karate and tae kwon do techniques with Muay Thai techniques, especially the kicks. Therefore, today you will see some U.S. kickboxers throw almost exclusively Thai kicks, wear Thai shorts, yet incorrectly say that kickboxing is the combination of boxing and karate. This is wrong. Kickboxing as practiced today mainly has techniques from only two arts: (1) Western Boxing for hands, and (2) Muay Thai for kicks (and knees, elbows, and clinching where the rules permit). By now many fighters realize this and it is the purpose of this site to complete the imparting of this information to the remaining kickboxing fans who may still be confused. The fans of today are not to be blamed for their confusion; it was the way that the name "Muay Thai" was not accepted into the U.S. kickboxing community in the past that caused this confusion. To confuse the fans even more, they now define "RULES" in terms of "Kickboxing" and "Muay Thai". So now the terms "Kickboxing" and "Muay Thai" apply not only to "TECHNIQUES" but also to "RULES"! So let's straighten this out. In terms of techniques, Muay Thai is now the main influence on today's kickboxers. It long replaced the techniques of karate and tae kwon do. In terms of rules, kickboxing rules do not allow anything beyond kicking and punching (keep in mind that in terms of techniques the kicks of today's kickboxers are primarily from Muay Thai regardless of rules). In contrast, the rules of Muay Thai allows all Muay Thai techniques to be used including knees, elbows, and clinching. In many countries, elbows are still the only weapon not allowed because of its potential to cause massive cuts.

So, ball of the foot, shin & toes... And where did they steal it from? There is nothing "new", everything has been worked out, forgoten, borrowed, traded and relearned. Shin kicks have been around a lot longer then Muay Thai has. Sure, to some extent. If it wasn't for Royce Gracie very few would be using the guard, that doesn't mean it wasn't used elsewhere by other people. I've seen medieval european texts depicting fighting from the guard... Yes, and Muay Thai borrowed heavily from other systems as well, thats how arts evolve... I agree Gracies weren't the first ones to use guard position,but as far as shin kicks are concerned they came from MuayThai we didn't steal it from anyone,we didn't have to since the shin kicks were invented by the people of thailand who use it in their art which is MuayThai. Here is an article that proves me right,that I pasted on to here. Muay Thai is a style of "kickboxing" which utilizes hands, elbows, kicks, knees, and stand-up grappling known as clinching. It is the oldest style of "kickboxing" and undisputedly the most brutal. It originated in Thailand (formerly known as Siam) long ago and today it is a sport practiced at the global level. In the Western hemisphere, "kickboxing" was first influenced by Far Eastern Arts such as Karate and Tae Kwon Do from Japan and Korea respectively. However, in the 1970s and 1980s, through competition with Thai fighters, it was consistently proven that Muay Thai was the dominant style in the ring. Consistent means much more than one or two matches. The kicks of Muay Thai were harder and the impact of the knees, elbows, and clinching were devastating to the other styles of "kickboxing". As a result, kickboxers began to replace the karate and tae kwon do techniques with the techniques of Muay Thai. Today, one can see that kickboxers will most often kick with their rear leg using the shin as the striking surface. That is the powerful Muay Thai kick that kickboxers now consistently use as a dominant weapon in the ring. When such transition took place, the West divided into two major groups which confused the heck out of today's kickboxing fans. The Europeans basically adopted the name Muay Thai, especially in France and Holland. Their kickboxers now practice Muay Thai - there was little or no confusion in Europe. The United States and Japan however, adopted Muay Thai techniques but kept the generic name "kickboxing". In my first article, Muay Thai - The Belt is in the Ring, I go into more details as to why this was so. Because of this, it was never clearly defined that kickboxers were now replacing karate and tae kwon do techniques with Muay Thai techniques, especially the kicks. Therefore, today you will see some U.S. kickboxers throw almost exclusively Thai kicks, wear Thai shorts, yet incorrectly say that kickboxing is the combination of boxing and karate. This is wrong. Kickboxing as practiced today mainly has techniques from only two arts: (1) Western Boxing for hands, and (2) Muay Thai for kicks (and knees, elbows, and clinching where the rules permit). By now many fighters realize this and it is the purpose of this site to complete the imparting of this information to the remaining kickboxing fans who may still be confused. The fans of today are not to be blamed for their confusion; it was the way that the name "Muay Thai" was not accepted into the U.S. kickboxing community in the past that caused this confusion. To confuse the fans even more, they now define "RULES" in terms of "Kickboxing" and "Muay Thai". So now the terms "Kickboxing" and "Muay Thai" apply not only to "TECHNIQUES" but also to "RULES"! So let's straighten this out. In terms of techniques, Muay Thai is now the main influence on today's kickboxers. It long replaced the techniques of karate and tae kwon do. In terms of rules, kickboxing rules do not allow anything beyond kicking and punching (keep in mind that in terms of techniques the kicks of today's kickboxers are primarily from Muay Thai regardless of rules). In contrast, the rules of Muay Thai allows all Muay Thai techniques to be used including knees, elbows, and clinching. In many countries, elbows are still the only weapon not allowed because of its potential to cause massive cuts.

Comparing cars to me means nothing because I don't know anything about cars.I've never driven before. Anyways I never said anything about something being bad and about what people are willing to put out and never even said that everyone is willing to fight full contact. I agree not everyone cares to study more then one art or even to compete full contact,but that wasn't my point. I'm not talking about what everyone wants from a martial arts.I'm talking about what makes an all rounded martial arts for those who do want to do full contact and to learn as street-defense.

Thats just not true. Kicking with the instep is generally used in point based sport arts. It extends the reach, is safer and will score the point. The instep is also padded, which protects not only the opponent, but the instep as well. The ball of the foot, the tips of the toes, the heel and the shin are all used in other styles as well. Kicking also changes when shoes are worn, something thai fighters don't do. Savate fighters on the other hand know all about shoes and kicking. I know ball of foot is also used as well as the heel,but I'm only talking about round house kicks,not front and rear kicks or side kicks. You're right kicking with shin is used in other styles,but the use of kicking with shins is originally from muay thai.Traditional artists stole the kicks of muay thai and started using them,because they saw how effective they were. I even mentioned if you read correctly that some styles have incorporated our kicks into their styles.If it wasn't for muay thai,traditional arts wouldn't be using shin kicks,they'd using their round house kicks with top part of foot. More and more arts are starting to rely on our kicks.

To have an effective art of self-defense or street defense,one must learn to kick effectively with technique,speed and power as those in MuayThai.The punhes of boxing are also very important due to it's accuracy,speed,power and different techniques. We cannot forget the effectiveness of grappling such as in jujitsu,submission wrestling,judo among a few others. An effective art is not all about stand up fighting,to have a perfect,and most effective art one must be able to fight despite of situation and position put in,whether it be standing up or on the ground. All rounded fights are mixed martial arts fighting as seen in several pay per view fights such as UFC,Sabaki Challenge,WFA,Pride,King of the Cage etc. A good martial artist can do anything from kick,punch,knee,use elbow strikes,takedown,grapple,apply submissions (arm bars,chokes,knee locks,elbow locks,neck cranks etc.) What's everyone's opinion on this?

That's your opinion.If it really bothers you,then why are you still coming into my threads.Obviously you want to see what I have to say otherwise you wouldn't have seen my remark to you in this thread.

Right now I'm not comparing the art of muay thai or others styles,only telling the difference of the kicks,giving my opinion and asking for people's opinions.I'm not talking about the arts as a whole. If I meant to put people's art down I wouldn't ask for opinions would I?

In my opinion,Muay Thai Kickboxers have unique round house kicks that are the most effective kicks. All martial arts styles kick with top part of the foot except for the muay thai fighters and those who have incorporated the kicks into their style.The muay thai practictioner applies round house kicks using shins. Kicking using the shins which is all bone hurts more then being kicked with top of foot which is soft tissue,giving the muay thai fighter a better advantage when it comes to being kicked. Those who have been kicked by both a Muay Thai fighter and karate ka know the difference of power and effectiveness behind the two kicks. Although Muay Thai fighters sometimes kick to the head like any other art they do prefer keeping their kicks low like to the inner and outer thigh area and back to person's knees. As someone who has done both karate and muay thai I know the difference and effectiveness,and in my opinion the muay thai hurts alot more then the traditional kick.Personally if I wasn't currently a muay thai fighter I would prefer being kicked by a karate kick then a muay thai kick . Does anyone else share this opinion?

Once again,people this thread is for discussion and opinion NOT FOR FIGHTING. Personally I would never use an open hand strike for anything but to eyes or throat or for throwing of balance when cornered. Open hands in a fight I would in most circumstances use only for grabbing and pulling or when put in grappling position. Think about it,how fast do you think you'd be able to grab a person coming at you with full out punches and strike?Very unlikely I'd say. Only time I'd use open hand is for blocking ,grabbing or pulling shirt over a guys head while punching him,all at close range and for throwing off balance,but to think you can strike at persons neck or temples with open hand when he is punching full out,would just be plain rediculous and stupid. In my opinion,in most cases open hand is not a good choice like most martial arts teach,because often a person who gets hold of your fingers can break them. Conclusion: Open hand is very limited and only good at times when grabbing ,striking to throat or eyes is needed at close range and for clinching to throw off balance. What's every ones OPINION on this?

People fight out of anger,being hurt,to defend themselves,disrespect for others,lack of confidence,immaturity,to be mean,missunderstanding others,racism,drug and alcohol abuse,and from constantly seeing and getting abuse within their own household(physically,menatlly or sexually) etc.these are only a few reasons for violence in this world. There's also fighting in war due to difference of political views,difference of religion(which makes absolutely no sense),oil,peace,power,and revenge. There's many reasons why people fight,we're all animals (homosapiens) and like other animals it's in our blood to fight,it's unfortunate but true. When I was younger I always fought to defend myself from the school bullies,out of anger and getting hurt. Fighting is stupid unless put in a situation where there is no other alternative but to fight in order to defend yourself or fighting in the ring.

Hell no,only thing that would scare me from some of the students saying kiai is probably the bad breath coming out of some of the students'mouth.LOL

Well no shit ,of course it's better to stay on your feet,that's stating the obvious.I never once said it wasn't all I said was it's important to know grappling without grappling no art is complete.

Ya I would have to agree,I also don't think submission wrestling will ever get popular,which is unfortunate. Some people just see it as a bunch of guys rolling on the floor,when infact it is more then just that.They don't look at it same way they would with boxing,kickboxing,or some mixed martial arts found in UFC. Submission wrestling on its own I believe has basically no chance of making money,which is sad since the fake wrestling (wwf shit) makes money and it's not even realistic.

Very true.Point I've been trying to make to some of the people in this thread.

I agree.

I was saying is it is important to know grappling,because in a real fight where anything goes at times even the best striker can end up on the ground against a good grappler but it can also work the other way around too.There is no guarantee who will go down to the ground first,either way whether it is the striker or the grappler,at least one of them is going to end up on the ground,hopefully it won't be the striker,the grappler fights best on the ground though and a striker is meant for stand up. Well it's my experience of so many years of stand up and now having to know both that shows me,that grappling is important even against the best stand up fighter,just as stand up is important against a good grappler.That's good that you don't underestimate what a good striker can do,no one should,as a stand up fighter myself I know what we are capable of doing,but I don't underestimate what a good grappler can do either,that's exactly why I say it is important to know both. Infact it would be hard for a grappler to just automatically get a striker to the ground,but should he be able to,you must know how to fight back while on the ground.This is the point I was trying to make. For example: In UFC if a grappler manages to shoot in on the striker and the striker can't fight once he is taken down you'll see him lose,however if he knows both he has higher chance of winning.This doesn't mean a striker can't necessarily win from a good strike,punch or kick while he is standing up. If you want to compare stand up and grappling as individual arts instead of mixed,alot of times at least in UFC anyways,it's the grappler that wins,the gracies proved that over and over again in the UFC fights when UFC first began.They were good for waiting for the perfect moment for a striker to make a move and shoot in and take the striker down.Although in a real fight that would be hard to do. Although trained in both stand up and grappling,I only fight muay thai because I'm best at muaythai,I'm not very good on ground.Against your average person on street I may do good at both stand up and grappling but against a good grappler,I wouldn't do so good on the ground,I'm okay but could do way better. To fight against a grappler I know I'd better take him out with punches,kicks,knees,elbows etc and hurt him so he can't take me to the ground. Well it's my experience of so many years of stand up and now having to know both that shows me,that grappling is important even against the best stand up fighter.That's good that you don't underestimate what a good striker can do,no one should,as a stand up fighter myself I know what we are capable of doing,but I don't underestimate what a good grappler can do either,that's exactly why I say it is important to know both. I know I can fight good at stand up both for competition and street,but if I came across a good grappler on street,either I'd beat him by hitting him hard enough for me to be able to take off or even be able to knock him out so he can't take me to the ground or he might take me to the ground no matter how many kicks or punches I throw.It could work either way. Lets for example say we're both fighting stand up and you end up being able to take me to the ground,now you're on top of me throwing punches,if I don't know grappling I won't be able to get out of that position you have me in,and obviously you'd win.Now lets say I do know how to grapple,then even if you take me to ground and try and pin me down chances are I'll be able to free myself and fight you off while I'm still on my back.Without the grappling I'd be history and you would have won. Lets even say you know stand up and I only know grappling,if I manage to shoot in on you before you strike and take you to the ground,would you as someone who knows nothing about grappling be able to get back on your feet? I doubt it. Now you come across someone that knows both grappling and stand up and is good at both,then it won't matter if you take him down because either way,he'll be able to defend himself unless you are lucky enough to just knock him out within the first 30 seconds,while you were both standing,which is unlikely,since he won't be standing there waiting for you to punch him,he'll be fighting back. My point is you can be a great stand up fighter or a great grappler which is good if that's what you want your training to be like,however on the street if you only have experience in one of them,as a stand up fighter you better hope to god,that the grappler is unable to shoot in on you and take you down,just as much as the grappler better hope the stand up fighter doesn't manage to kick the crap out of him before that happens,so to be an all rounded fighter you need grappling.Face it any art without grappling is unbalanced just as any art with just grappling and no stand up experience.You can't have one without the other.You can compete in just one but on the street it is a different story.

For example: In UFC if a grappler manages to shoot in on the striker and the striker can't fight once he is taken down you'll see him lose,however if he knows both he has higher chance of winning.This doesn't mean a striker can't necessarily win from a good strike,punch or kick while he is standing up. If you want to compare stand up and grappling as individual art instead of mixed,alot of times at least in UFC anyways,it's the grappler that wins,the gracies proved that over and over again in the UFC fights when UFC first began.They were good for waiting for the perfect moment for a striker to make a move and shoot in and take the striker down. Yes I did karate for 12yrs.As far as muay thai is concerned,I actually only faught for 4 years in muay thai as an individual art ,but what I'm actually trained in is Pankration which involves both stand up (muay thai)and grappling and people who fight pankration are the better fighters.Muay Thai is only good for stand up and I fight like that because I'm best at muaythai,I'm not very good on ground.Against your average person on street I may do good at both stand up and grappling but against a good grappler,I wouldn't do so good on the ground,I'm okay but could do way better. Well it's my experience of so many years of stand up and now having to know both that shows me,that grappling is important even against the best stand up fighter.That's good that you don't underestimate what a good striker can do,no one should,as a stand up fighter myself I know what we are capable of doing,but I don't underestimate what a good grappler can do either,that's exactly why I say it is important to know both. I know I can fight good at stand up both for competition and street,but if I came across a good grappler on street,either I'd beat him by hitting him hard enough for me to be able to take off or even be able to knock him out so he can't take me to the ground or he might take me to the ground no matter how many kicks or punches I throw.It could work either way. Lets for example say we're both fighting stand up and you end up being able to take me to the ground,now you're on top of me throwing punches,if I don't know grappling I won't be able to get out of that position you have me in,and obviously you'd win.Now lets say I do know how to grapple,then even if you take me to ground and try and pin me down chances are I'll be able to free myself and fight you off while I'm still on my back.Without the grappling I'd be history and you would have won. Now you come across someone that knows both grappling and stand up and is good at both,then it won't matter if you take him down because either way,he'll be able to defend himself unless you are lucky enough to just knock him out within the first 30 seconds,while you were both standing. My point is you can be a great stand up fighter or a great grappler which is good if that's what you want your training to be like,however on the street if you only have experience in one of them,as a stand up fighter you better hope to god,that the grappler is unable to shoot in on you and take you down,just as much as the grappler better hope the stand up fighter doesn't manage to kick the crap out of him before that happens,so to be an all rounded fighter you need grappling.Face it any art without grappling is unbalanced just as any art with just grappling and no stand up experience.You can't have one without the other.You can compete in just one but on the street it is a different story.

I think they are all more less the same just different ownerships running these tournaments.I personally like UFC best though

Very true.

You obviously agree with me then.I'm glad to see that someone agrees so far.

I have seen talk about how grappling is useless and also how it is usefull. In my opinion grappling is equally important to stand up. 9 out of 10 times a fight goes to the ground and often ends there,this is why I believe it is important and handy to have grappling skills. It is great to have stand up skills,but if you're the one that ends up on the ground you don't want to lose,you want to be able to continue to fight back,so this is where grappling is very important. If someone is trained in a martial arts that doesn't include grappling they are very much limited and should think about adding grappling to their art now or in the future.An art that includes both is a bonus though. Does anybody here agree?If you don't agree prove me wrong.I'd be more then happy to see what you have to say and can prove.

So that 9/10 stat applies to what group of fighters exactly? So are you saying you don't agree?Face it bud everyone knows it's true. The chances of you knocking a guy out with just one or two punches,so he won't be able to fight on the ground is very unlikely regardless of how much training you have in martial arts.Anyone who disagrees with this is either in denial,over-confident or invisible. I'm not saying martial arts never works on the street,I'm just saying there is no guarantee that you won't be taken to ground before end of fight,so you might as well know how to fight on ground and know how to get back up from ground. There's always someone out there that will be a better fighter then you. That's why there is a difference between the best martial artist fighterand the best street fighter. Street fighter doesn't have any rules to follow a martial artist does.So the more you know the better. If you don't know how to grapple chances of winning a fight is really low,because like I said 9 out of 10 x a fight ends to the ground.Stand up and grappling are equally important.Without grappling you can kiss your ass good bye. To answer your question,that 9/10 times applies to anyone that doesn't know how to defend themselves while on their backs and that's most people,unless they've done grappling before.

Do you meant traditional martial arts stance like that of karate? If that's what you mean,I would never go into a stance in a real fight,good way of losing a fight. I agree with the rest of what you said though.