Venezolano

If you really want to improve your clinch skills, do Greco Roman Wrestling not JJJ...

What facts? talk with base, don't talk B.S if you don't know about it. That's one of the best (if not the best) way to neutralize somebody without really hurting him, brain damage ocurrs if you prolong the choke for many time, or do it very oftently. and just for curiosity, what do you think is the best way...?

No, that's not true. I have friends who had to defend theirselves in street fights situations (BJJs practicioners) and none of them have "killed" or choking somebody out to death, that's stupid, you know when the person is out and you simply left him there. Choke somebody out is one of the best things you can't do, since you're not really hurting your opponent (so he can't say after that to police that you were the attacker), and you actually neutralize the attack.

Who is saying choke somebody out to death?

Hey, have you ever make yourself a question like "why are these MA so popular"? woudn't it be by it efectiveness?

Judo guy by armlock or choke

Of course it is true, like Wrestlers, Judokas tend to give their backs very often, if you don't think that it is a bad habit go to a BJJ or submission wrestling school and do it, you'll see what happens... Judo has less ground work than BJJ, Judoka's strong point are throws since that is what they practice most time, as BJJ's strong point is ground work since most times you'll be there. IMHO, maybe in BJJ you don't have as much throws as you have in Judo, but you have basics one throws with gi, takedowns without the gi (wrestling ones) that in many Judo's gym DON'T teach you, and some valetudo's takedowns. But, once again, if you really wanna be good a throws with gi, get in Judo, if you wanna get good on takedowns without the Gi get in Wrestling And for the original topic, i would suggest you BJJ over Judo + Wing Tsun.. maybe if you want to cross train i'd suggest you some muay thai or boxing

First of all, i think Gracies did more than "some small tweaks" to Jiu-Jitsu they weere taught, BTW, nowdays Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has evolved TOO much (and it continues doing ot everyday), and it has developed its own techniques. And what's the problem? the same that Gracie did, many people before them did it too, Kano took JJJ and remove the "deadly"s techniques, added more randori and there is Judo, so if we are going to that point, he "changed" the name, and it's the same sh*t. And it's not one of the most effectives MA because they say it, it has been proved during time, it's not "supposed" to work, it _does_, and like many people says here, "there is not worst blind person, that the person that doesn't want to see". In theory, JJJ is more well rounded that BJJ, but in practice, it isn't so effective as BJJ, whatever you say, facts are there, JJJ doesn't have as much sparring like BJJ and that's one of its weaks points..

throw an opponent into another in a multiple attackers situation? LOL! excuse me but that is nothing more than B.S I think there are some people that are watching Power Rangers too much.. Althought a throwing art could be very useful in a real situation, to throw an opponent is not that easy, and if you don't believe me, go to a Judo gym for example, and try to attack any Judoka there with multiple attackers at the same time, and you'll notice how many times he would throw ALL the opponents and leave victorious.. and for Straight Blast, if you say that BJJ is not good for 1 vs 2 or more, could you tell me what MA is good for multiple opponents? (but that it be tested as BJJ is that it really works, and not to trust in "supposed situations"), only running is good for that kind of situations

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is the same that BJJ, only that Gracie Jiu Jitsu has a trademark that only can be used with Rorion authorization. If somebody opens a school claiming he teaches BJJ, you could tell him to show you his CBJJ certificate or you can see him rolling and see

Not only depends on the fighter, style also is important it depends in with how many reality does it work

It makes me laugh how some people say that their style prepares them to "many attackers", when they can deal in a NHB figh for example with just one man. BJJ has been proved during years in the ring and in the street, that's something that a very few MA can also say...

BJJ is one of the FEW systems, that has something like a "quality control" in their belts, so a black belt in BJJ isn't "supposed" to be good, he HAS to be, he has to PROVE it, BJJ it's not like other arts where they sell/give/ belts because they have time training or know some katas..

Sure that some Judo throws can be adapted so they can be performed without the gi, but they are just a few. Wrestler train all their time without a Gi on, so they should be betters in a no-gi situation. Also, i think that Judo throws that can be without wearing a gi, should be more difficult to put without it. That's why i said that.

Wrestlers don't know about submissions, so they will left some ways open to the BJJ'er to submit him, also they like Judokas, tend to "turtle", and there will be it end with a BJJ guy. Of course, standing up wrestler will like to get the takedown, and most probably he will, but once on the ground the BJJ has the advantadge. For some BJJ vs Wrestlers take a look at: Royce vs Severn Mino vs Henderson Sperry vs Larry Parker Mino vs Coleman Sakuraba vs Randleman (althought Sakuraba isn't a BJJ guy, he is a submission fighting guy). IMHO in a Wrestler vs Judoka situation, i only see a Judoka having the advantadge if the wrestler if wearing a Gi, otherwise wrestler would dominate.

What drills do you use when doing jiu jitsu for example? (those where you incorporate strikes)

Here nobady is saying bjj is the ultimate art. And also, id you remember a Judoka (Kato) was defeated (choked out) by a Gracie, and yes, Kimura won over Helio, Kimura was one of the best Judokas ever, but that's another topic... Nobody is saying here Judo is bad, i think Judo is great

That's totally absurd. So for you a "combat ma" is a combat that use weapons. wtf? go and do morphosis and throw smoke bombs..

I'm talking about combat, combat for me is real fighting. What you say is false, Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo works very good in NHB controlled environments like you say and in the street because there arts that train realistic, and spar, and don't say "oh, this art is too deadly that we can spar ourselves because death hits.." You talk about fighting in a mountain, raining with sand and a lot of trash, i ask you wtf are u talking about? i told you, stop watching power rangers movies, what are the chances to get a fight in a situation like that? i think it's less than 1%. Am i teached how to fight when i can not takedown a person? YES, i have experience in other stand up styles so i feel i can defend myself on my feet althought y feel more confortable on the ground. Can i fight with an armed opponent? surely not, i know some self-defense techniques against armed attackers (knife, sticks, etc), but i would try by all the time to get out there, run or whatever, o would not try to be a "Ninja turtle" and try to fight in that situation, it's so stupid... But my point is that you think that BJJ is only ground fighting and it's not, it also has self.defense, and by something it is being taught to US Marines, and differents security agencies around the world. The fact that BJJ and other styles like Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, etc have been proved in NHB and had been very effective in the ring doesn't mean that they were created fot that purpose, in fact, if you read BJJ history for example, it was NOT created to be a sport, or to be in a "ring", so don't talk anything you don't know. It makes me laugh that you always say the same "multiple attackers situation" argument against BJJ "BJJ teach you how scope out your surroundings, to check exits when you walk into a building?" No, like you say it isn't its conceirn, it conceirn is how to win a fight, that's all and that's enough for me. BJJ IS a combat art, it was created for real combat and not for to fight in a ring like you think, and it has been proved during many many years (thing that your budo taijutsu can say ), it has defeated many styles in NHB matches including Ninjutsu, Kung Fu, etc, and THAT's A FACT BABY!, like i said you before, i don't say nothing about MA that work in "theory", PROOVE IT. And as a last thing, i never said that BJJ is a complete art, it's the best groundfighting art outhere, but it lacks of takedowns, throws, strikes, etc. Oh! i forgot it!, BJJ also doesn't teach how to use smoke bombs, and ninja stars, so it's MORE incomplete .... ROFL!

I don't think so, there are also really good Judokas that have a very very good ground game, so i agree more with Johnny S

Sure? and why not?

There are some good instructionals videos from: Mario Sperry, Pedro Carvalho, etc. You could also try to train with a partner that had some Sambo experience, or try it for a while to learn some good leglocks

That's your opinion, you can't say that Judo is a better art for combat than BJJ is. That what you think, and every person thinks different things, i think that BJJ is one of the best art for real combat, also Judo, but IMHO budo taijutsu, kung fu isn't realistic and doesn't work, but that's my opinion i can say it's the only truth out there. A pure BJJ fighter probably could not success nowdays in NHB world (althought that is debatable, for an example look at BJ Penn between others), but that is because nowdays fighters are more and more prepared, they train to fight in all distance, clinch, groundwork, stand up, but if you remember in the early NHB fights see what style dominated mostly that kind of events.. BJJ isn't a complete MA, i think none MA is, and that's why most people nowdays are doing cross-training in some disciplines to become efficients in all the fighting distances.

Treebranch i repeat you again, i'm NOT insulting you or anyone in here, if you feel alluded with my comments that's not my problem (and if you do, is for something), but you can say i am insulting anyone because that's false. I guess in what i see that works, i have NEVER see that your Budo Taijutsu work, neither in street fights or NHB fights, so that's what i think.

White Warlock: You're wrong, BJJ ISN'T a sport, if you read BJJ's History you will see that when Gracies adapted Maeda's Jiu-Jitsu to form what we know today as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu it was not to create a "sport", it is a martial art. Now, that it be extremely effective in MMA fights and people consider MMA a sport today is another thing, but don't mix that 2 things. Another thing you're wrong, is that you think that BJJ is ONLY ground fighting, it makes you look like you don't know nothing about BJJ for instance. Am i insulting? who am i insulting? if you got alluded by my comments that's not my problem, i didn't insult anyone. Second, i'm not saying that there aren't systems that not tech you to "fight against multipe attackers", what i said, is that they could tech it you, ok perfect, but they can't GUARANTEE, NONE style that it's gonna work for anybody, many experts says that best to do with multiple attackers is to run, not to try to be a "Bruce Lee", or some kung fu idols that appears on movies and can deal with 631631 attackers. Treebranch: It's me that am being influenced by ninja movies? why? did i say that i can deal with 5454 attackers with my "fancys moves" from BJJ? that i can armlock all them? umm.. i guess no, i just adjust to reality, and what have been proved during years, not to MA that are "theoricals". And believe me i would LOVE to visit you, so we could "spar" together and see.. it'd be an interesting experience, but if you know read i live in Venezuela, so NY is far away from here... But i will keep in mind that when i visit NY go to visit you and see your "dangerous" world, with "dead strikes" and all those "stuff"...