still kicking

Congratulations, good work.

Blade96 says: Well, I noticed you live in Canada. No wonder you skate! I can remember growing up in Ohio (U.S.) there was a pond near where we lived that froze over, and it was really fun to go ice skating. I was OK at it then, not so much now. Part of the reason, now if I want to go ice skating I have to go to an indoor rink, because Seattle does not get cold enough for outdoor skating. It is not the same! I do remember that I used to love it, long ago when I could do it outdoors and I was not so bad at it!

I am a "news junkie", and when I am not working or training, spend much of my time obsessively following news (national and international) and politics (mostly U.S.) websites, or listening to NPR (national public radio). I'm not really sure why. I think it's kind of like driving by a car crash and just having to look. Besides these things, I enjoy yoga, gardening, playing with my kitties, and listening to music, especially classic rock and jazz.

Quoting WireFrame: I think this provides a clue. I enjoy the challenge of working to make techniques and execution more and more precise, in interaction with teachers' feedback. Trying to match what they are asking and deliver it. Something like an aerobics class or team sport doesn't provide this. However, as we are approaching the 2010 Winter Olympics -- I love the Winter Olympics! -- I am rethinking my contention that martial arts are uniquely addictive. I was reading an interview with the speed skater Apolo Anton Ohno, where he was talking about training for the Olympics and his fascination for his sport. I'm sure all Olympic athletes are pretty obsessed with their respective sports, so maybe my theory is totally off base! Trying to think about what's the difference between skating, for example, and karate -- well, for one thing I'm no good at skating -- ha ha. You do work closely with a coach, at least at Olympic level. You don't get that group camaraderie, though. Who knows. There are probably other forums for skating addicts and tennis addicts and all kinds of things, and I'm just not reading them!

I work in the mental health field, so know just enough about it to know that "addiction" has a specific meaning that may not apply here. I am not an addictions expert, though, and am using the term in the popular and general meaning of the word. Lately I have been thinking that martial arts seems uniquely compelling, to people who are in it, for some reason. It may be that that is not true. I know that other people become fanatical about running or tennis or many other types of activities. For myself, though, nothing has done it like martial arts, specifically karate. In the years when I wasn't training I tried various other physical activities, but nothing really grabbed me. I joined an aerobics class, and it was OK, but not that thrilling. I tried running, several times, but frankly hated it. I never did get that runners' high -- it was just pain, dread, and boredom. Well, part of it is that I have figured out that I need the energy of the group to keep me going. But there was a group in aerobics class, and that wasn't enough, so it's more than that. The nearest I can piece together, what it is for me is a combination of things. I love Japanese arts and aesthetics in general, the endorphins of working out make me feel good, I am motivated by wanting to be strong and able to defend myself, and I like the achievement aspects of working through the ranks. I was wondering what other people think about reasons for the "addictiveness" of martial arts -- and I'm sure that most people on here are probably addicts like me!

OK, I'm all better now. I'm really sorry to belabor this point, and maybe it's like Toptomcat says, and that it's a fine point with no clear answer. In any case, of course I will do what my sensei wants, I just wanted to know what you all think. Thanks for all of your replies.

It doesn't matter to me either, I just want to know what's proper protocol!

usc96 asks: It's because I was away for 22 years! It would have been silly for me to come back and put on a black belt, as I was in pathetic shape, if nothing else. I had to go through all the ranks to really perfect the requirements for each level, which had changed and tightened up considerably in the intervening years. It's hard to know how it should go, because when I was white belt and lower rank this time around, new people coming in might have been intimidated because I was better than them, but that's probably better than wearing a black belt and having new people come in and think that our black belts are pathetic! Anyway, it doesn't matter any more. I think I'm really lucky because the first time around, I had the most fun at this level, training really hard to get ready for the black belt test, and now I get to enjoy it again. In other words, working for a black belt is more fun than having one!

Quoting Chitsu: Well, I was afraid that people would take it that way. To me it is really not about the importance of whatever miniscule amount of increased status might be implied by standing to the left of someone who attained a rank at exactly the same time. The point is, according to my understanding of Japanese ettiquette, there is a proper way to do things. A big part of it is to make things go smoothly and to have order, so that everyone feels comfortable and knows exactly what is expected. If everyone just lines up "wherever", and some days I stand in one place and some days I stand in another, to me that seems like an American or western thing. With my martial arts training I have come to enjoy the order, which can also be interpreted as rigidity, I suppose, of doing things "just so". If you think it's rigid to have to line up by strict hierarchy, try taking iaido some time! There are such precise ways to do everything, how you line up, how you walk in, how you fold your clothes, everything. I find it very difficult to make my western self to conform to all of this order, yet I enjoy the discipline of trying to. Anyway... of course we are all equal as humans, regardless.

Fearun9033 says: Well,Fearun, I think that is a nice humble attitude you have. Actually, since I have been back there was once someone I attained a rank with at the same time (who has since left). As I recall, we weren't sure who should stand to the left of who, so we took turns deferring to one another. Sometimes it seemed like we were actually being competetive about who could be more humble, so it can get complicated!

Quoting Fearun 9033: Ha ha, I love it. The point being, it does not have to be so blasted serious, and it's all in the way you look at it! I also liked your point about being an advanced green belt or a new blue belt. (Although in my school, green is 5th and 4th kyu, and blue is 9th and 8th -- but that doesn't matter). I have had that feeling myself. When I had been 4th kyu green belt for a while, towards the end I felt pretty good about my training, and that I was ready to be brown belt, but then when I got brown, I felt very green! I mean both in the sense of being new to it, and also maybe I wasn't as hot as I thought, as I struggled to correct and improve all of my "training challenges". Your basic point, to "just have fun" is really what it's all about though, isn't it?

Warning, long post. I am addressing this question primarily to those who consider themselves to be fairly well versed in traditional Japanese MA's, and especially the associated etiquette, though of course am always open to anyone's opinion. First I have to say that I think that seniority relates only indirectly to rank, which relates only indirectly to skill. My question is this -- what are your opinions on where I should line up in class? In my school, we line up at the beginning and end of class, and at many times during class during certain exercises, "according to rank". Everyone seems to know where to go, and up until now, I have, too. Don't get me wrong, as people we are not hierarchical! During breaks and before and after class, everyone is quite friendly, and during class I think that we quite like and respect one another as well. There is no abuse of lower ranks by higher ranks or anything like that. However, in terms of lining up, we are pretty rigid about hierarchy, for better or worse. Lining up by rank is not as clear cut as it might seem. Obviously black belts are ahead of brown, who are ahead of green, and etc. If 2 people are exactly the same rank, but one has earned it earlier, the first person to earn the rank is to the left. If they both earn it on the same day, then it goes by seniority. And here is the crux of my uncertainty. And by the way, I have even asked sensei about it, and she said she would think about it, but I was wondering what you all think. I was recently promoted to 2nd kyu, along with one other person on the same date. There are a few other people who are also 2nd kyu, but they achieved this rank in previous promotions, so are ahead of us new 2nd kyus. That much is clear. It turns out that the other 2nd kyu is considered a junior (a teen who trains with the adult class), so I am considered her senior and stand to her left. But my question is about, what if in the future I am promoted to a rank on the same day as some of those adult students who are now ahead of me? The thing is, I commenced my karate training in this very same karate school in 1978. I attained the level of shodan and trained, and eventually taught, there for a little more than 6 years, when I left for a whole bunch of complicated reasons. I returned in Jan. 2006, started over from white belt, and now 4 years later am 2nd kyu. My opinion, just speaking from a correctness standpoint, is that I have a little more than 10 years of training. The first 6 years of it began in 1978, and the last 4 year began in 2006. I am very clear that there is no way I would be performing at the level I am now without that previous 6 years of training. What I am doing now was built on that foundation. The other adult 2nd kyus, who are now ahead of me, i.e. attained the rank earlier, started between 9 and 11 years ago, I think. Anyway, long after 1978! So my opinion is that if at some point in the future we are all promoted to 1st kyu or whatever together, on the same day, that my seniority date should be 1978, not 2006. Please understand... on one level, I could give a rat's abdomen where I stand. I love training and profoundly respect everyone I train with, and if there is a clumping of us who achieved exactly the same rank on the same day, obviously for all intents and purposes we are equal. (Though as I said at the beginning, rank is not the same as seniority is not the same as skill, and may vary). This is important to me mainly because if we are to "line up according to rank" at numerous times during a class, I need to know where to stand. I think it is also important, though, just because it seems correct to acknowledge my previous training, to show respect to what my first teacher taught me (who after all was the founder of this school), and to not pretend that I have learned all I know, such as it is, in the past four years. So... what do you think? I am fully prepared for all of you who are not into the hierarchy of traditional Japanese arts to have at it. I understand. Sometimes it totally drives me nuts, and I wish we all just trained in sweat pants and t-shirts and mixed it up. Yet for some reason there is something comforting and beautiful about the rigidity of it to me as well. Anyway... wherever sensei tells me to stand is where I will stand, and will be happy with it.

It goes up according to rank, but I don't have exact figures in my head. I paid $90 for 2nd kyu, with half going to the association and half going to our school. Belt is included. I don't know what the association does with their half. I might be mad or I might be glad if I knew, but I signed up for the whole package and that comes with. I feel good about the half that goes directly to our school, though. We are set up as a non-profit organization. All teachers work on a volunteer basis, and a lot of the "extra" money goes into a scholarship fund to help students who struggle to pay tuition, and to defray part of the travel expenses involved in black belt training and testing. It is an important value to make karate training accessible to everyone.

Oh, forgot to mention in my previous post. This is for shodan-ho, so for shodan I will probably do Seinchin and Jion. Too many chances to fall over with Rohai in a high pressure situation, though my balance continues to improve, so we'll see!

All 5 Pinan (Heian) kata, 3 Naifanchi (Tekki) kata, and 2 of your choice, within a certain range of options i.e. not too basic, but maybe saving some of the harder ones for future tests. Many people choose Bassai Dai and Seipai, which are the ones I plan to use. Other popular choices are Seinchin, Rohai Nidan, and Jion.

Quoting Kuma: I second that, Blade96!

Lupin1 wrote: Very well said. And I think most black belts would agree that in some ways we are always beginners, in that there is always more to learn, or new ways of looking at things. I think Sensei8 said it well in another thread -- keep all of this in perspective and just train. Speaking for myself, I feel that I have been being a bit crazy with all of this concern about rank and relative standing in class and in the school. It seems really childish. I'm not saying this in judgement of anyone else, and it's all part of the journey, but yes, a kindegarten kid is still a kindergarten kid, no matter how precocious. When that child is in high school he or she will realize how little they knew in kindergarten, even though they think they are pretty smart now! But really, what difference does it make? There is a relatively new student in our school who just got her yellow belt (10th kyu). She trained in another school in the same style before, but they did things a little differently, and she is up for working her way through the ranks again with us. She already knows all of the Pinan (Heian) kata, and last night when we reviewing all of the Pinans, she did the more advanced ones with the rest of us while the other people at her level sat out. She is pretty good, but she is still just a yellow belt in our style. Everyone is different. Some yellow belts barely made it, and some are doing 5th kyu kata. As long as you focus on improving what you are supposed to be learning at your current rank, and also have the chance to practice the more advanced stuff sometimes if you know it, life is good! Anyway -- long winded as usual -- in my opinion it is the wrong focus to be thinking so much about who is better than who, and I for one am going to try to stop it!

Sensei8, of course you are right, and that is the goal, to "just train". It's just that I have this tendency to over analyze things... I can't help it, I am in the field of psychology. I think all of this concern with comparisons to others, who likes who the best, and all of that, is ridiculous, especially in myself. However, I have been thinking that there is something inherently contradictory about using a ranking system, and then expecting people, or yourself, to not compare themselves to others! I love traditional Japanese MA's, partly because of the ritual and aesthetics of it all, and a ranking system is inherently a part of that. I also enjoy having a ladder to climb, so to speak, as a motivator and reward system. But it can really get in the way, too. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and trying to notice in class ways that it comes out. Just last night, we were in an all levels class, that had several brown belts and a larger number of lower ranks. We were doing moving basics across the floor, lined up in 4 rows, with "brown belts in front". The people in the back rows were told to watch us do it first, and try to emulate what they saw. It's not a matter of thinking "I'm so great, watch me", and I was mostly focusing on the feedback I have gotten about things I need to work on and improve, but it's pretty hard to not feel just a little bit proud of being one to emulate as well. But reading back what you are saying, Sensei8, maybe this is OK as well, but it's a matter of proportion. Maybe it's OK if I only feel a tiny bit proud but am mostly focused on improving myself. Anyway, I don't need to worry, that pride might well be knocked out of me on my next journey across the floor, as sensei yells, "keep your front knee out", "faster", "you are dropping your shoulder" etc etc. Either way, it is really fun to train!

I thought this belonged here rather than under "Testing, Grading, and Promotions", though of course moderators can move it if that seems fit. As I mentioned under that heading, I recently earned a rank of 2nd Kyu. Thanks for all of the congrats! Of course I was and am happy about it, but it's not that straightforward. For one thing... I had already earned a rank of shodan in the same school, though it was a little more than 20 years ago! When I came back, which was 4 years ago (Jan. '06), I was warmly welcomed and also told that I would have to start from white belt and work my way through the ranks again. This seemed completely reasonable, considering how long I had been gone, but little did I know what I was in for! Things did come back to me pretty quickly, once I was back in reasonably good shape, and I was amazed to realize the strength of muscle memory. However, just as with just about anything, I guess, standards had changed and evolved over all that time. If you watch old tapes of Olympic gymnasts or figure skaters, for example, the champions of 20 or 30 years ago nowadays probably wouldn't even make the team. Everything builds on what went before it. Once breaking the 4 minute mile was a big thing, now it is routine. Anyway... not only had things tightened up, but now we have to go through 10 ranks of kobudo concurrent with the karate-do promotions, whereas in the old days we hardly even did any weapons. I love weapons, and I'm really glad we do them. The bottom line, though, was that looking back on the past 4 years, I had a really hard time during years 2 and 3 or so. I got really frustrated at being held at the lower ranks for so long, because I felt that my skill and understanding, not to mention previous training and rank, warranted faster promotions. Now I have to admit, which probably is no surprise... sensei was right! She told me that she was keeping me back because wanted me to really perfect the basics rather than getting to higher ranks with some bad habits from the past, i.e. doing things the old way when they had been changed. I'm sure I drove her nuts, but anyway, my point now is that I am really happy to be where I am. I would also like to say, though, that I wonder how many of you would find this to be easy, or manageable! I think it is different to have an advanced rank in one art and then to start another style and be a white belt, than to be training in exactly the same school, with the chief instructor now being someone who was a student under you in the past. I wanted so much to not care about rank, but it is really hard when in every class it is "line up by rank", and "black belts in front", and there I was way down at the bottom, for a while. Everyone is really "nice", but you can be sure that every single person is very aware if they got a rank a few weeks before someone else, or if ranked the same day, started a few weeks before someone else, and therefore will forever stand to their left. It really gets ridiculous, but that's the way it is! The other thing that was weird is that this is the first time I caught up with and/or surpassed others who have been training in the current incarnation for many years. The other 2nd kyu adults have been training more than 10 years straight, pretty consistently... and they don't seem particularly clumsy or stupid -- quite the opposite! I was a little worried that they might resent me if I caught up to them, even though they know my story and that I have trained before. Thankfully, that does not seem to be the case, at least not as far as I can tell, and everyone has been very gracious. Now I am excited about the next phase of my training, honing basics more and more, trying to improve precision, timing, maintain fitness, all of it. I need to really focus on kobudo, and am working on 2 new weapons kata, Tsuken shita haku no sai (sp?), and kaibo Ten no kata. Well anyway, sorry for the rambling. The main point I have been trying to make... it is quite possible to be very internally motivated, to value the training itself and want to just focus on getting better, and not want to be concerned with rank, but to still have a lot of feelings about it and energy on it. But I think that is partly due to how long our school takes to get people to black belt, which makes it perhaps seem more important than it should be. What it comes down to in the end, though, is that I am now able to see that "sensei is right" (most of the time) and to trust her judgement. Oh yes, and also that it is almost unbelievably fun just to train!

I don't know where you are located, but you might want to contact Tatsuhiko Konno at the following website. He is an iaido sensei in the Seattle, Wa (USA) area, and is a reknowned expert in polishing and appraising fine Japanese swords. I am sure he can give you information on what you've got. http://www.japaneseartswords.com/about Good luck!

Whoopie, another rank under my belt! We had evaluations/promotion testing this week, Tues and Wed night, and I can't believe how nervous I was! Last time, in October, I wasn't so nervous. Then I had just received 3rd kyu 3 months previously, and was totally not expecting to get promoted, so this freed me up to just perform my best (though I still did get nervous -- it can all seem so dreadfully important sometimes). Anyway, the funny thing was that afterwards the last time, sensei said she wanted to give me 2nd kyu then, because I had improved a lot, but had made a couple of little mistakes in my kata that she wanted me to fix. Fine, I wasn't expecting it anyway, and was just happy that she thought I was close. This time was different. Because she thought I was close last time, and I had fixed the mistakes she had mentioned last time, plus have been training like a demon and I think improved my speed, reaction time, overall fitness, and etc., I really wanted to get promoted this time. Well I did, and was happy about it, but jeesh, it sure is stressful. If all goes well, I hope to make 1st kyu in a year or so, and then test for shodan-ho a year after that. I have to get through 4 more kobudo levels before I can test, and we only have black belt testing once a year in March, so it will be a while. Oh, I know we're just supposed to do our best and not be concerned about rank, just take it as it comes, and blah blah blah. For some reason that whole thing reminds me of little kids at a birthday party. My little brother would tear open the envelope, then open the card, turn it upside down, and shake it to see if any checks or money fell out. Eventually he was socialized to open it calmly, and to read the sentiment with interest, and only then to casually notice that there had been a check enclosed. It always seemed more fun and real when he was younger. But I digress -- of course we like getting promoted, it's fun!

alenero wrote: I don't know what you mean. In our style, fighting stance is a distinct stance, just like zenkutsu dachi or shico dachi means a specific thing. Our fighting stance is pretty much how KarateGeorge describes the fighting stance in his style. It does vary a bit depending on the sparring match, but mostly I think the variety comes from rhythm and timing more than changing up the stance. Not that I'm a sparring expert, but it seems to me that if you change the leading leg using unpredictable timing and distancing, you are getting a lot of variation even with the basic form of the stance staying the same. I think of it as the more beginning students sparring with a "pop" music rhythm, predictable, whereas a good fighter spars with the timing of a jazz musician.

mr_obvious wrote: OK, good, well I look forward to feeling young again in a few months. I will put this information on my "reasons moving to Hawaii would be a good idea" list.

beagstkd wrote: I think finding the balance is not so hard if I am just tuning in to my body, and what it feels right to do on any given night. The problem is trying to work it into the class schedule! I do not go to classes every day, but usually 3 or 4 times a week. Then on a couple of off days I will do some light stretching/yoga, and maybe some exercise bike. The thing is, in class we do a lot of low stance work, and even though we are always encouraged to hold back or sit out if we are injured or for any reason we need to, especially when we are "no longer young" (I resist that realization), when things are moving along in class it's hard to hold back. Especially in the advanced class, one wants to keep up. It's not just an ego thing, although I am sure that that's a part of it, but we are taught to work hard! However, I am starting to realize that if I overdo it I am more likely to get injured and be out for some time, which would be worse than resting for a few minutes in class. KarateGeorge wrote: No, it is not. Grumble grumble. But I guess it's better than dying young, and at least I am still able to play.

Wow, I've been working my way through this thread (tho haven't finished yet). There are so many wise sayings on here, a few that I don't quite get, but to each his/her own. Here is my vote for the best of them all -- "Don't block with your face". Ha ha ha, if only we could always live up to that one!