still kicking

joesteph wrote: I can't say I totally disagree with you, though I'd still want more than just the Pinans. I do like having a lot of kata to choose from, because some fit different strengths and body types better, or are just more appealing for whatever reason, but I agree, I would prefer to study less of them but at more depth. I guess my goal/challenge is to know a lot of them fairly deeply, which takes a long time. In any case, even though I might prefer that we didn't have to practice quite so many, the bottom line is that there is no other school I'd rather train in, so it is what it is. Besides, I'm probably more in danger of dying of a stroke or heart attack or boredom than being attacked on the street, so I'd better stay with what I love! (I hope I didn't just jinx myself.)

joesteph wrote: We don't practice a lot of bunkai until the higher levels. Usually we are shown a few applications or interpretations while learning a kata, but only in passing. Then around 1st kyu we start practicing our bunkai routine for one kata we will be tested on in the black belts tests. Other than that, the main bunkai practice at the lower levels is being thrown around by the black belt candidate(s). In a perfect world, we would have a few less kata, and spend more time on bunkai at the lower levels. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no influence on the subject.

It is well known that Shito Ryu has a lot of kata, I guess because Mabuni was really into them. I love kata, and I doubt that anyone who didn’t care for them or see their value would train in a Shito-ryu school. Maybe some people will think that this kind of training is ridiculous and pointless, but I thought I would tell you the kata we require for ranking. FWIW, we also spend a lot of time on basics, and are tested on standing basics, moving basics, one step sparring, and free sparring, (depending on rank), but this is just to address kata requirements. 10th kyu ho (yellow belt) – no kata required (basics only) 10th kyu (orange belt) – Kihon kata ichi 9th Kyu (1st blue belt) Pinan Shodan 8th Kyu (2nd blue belt) Pinan Sandan + 1 intermediate kata* 7th Kyu (1st purple belt) Pinan Nidan + 1 new intermediate kata 6th Kyu (2nd purple belt) Pinan Yondan + 1 new intermediate kata 5th Kyu (1st green belt) Pinan Godan + 1 new intermediate kata 4th Kyu – Sensei’s Choice Pinan + 1 intermediate kata** 3rd Kyu (1st brown belt) Two intermediate kata 2nd Kyu (2nd brown belt) Two intermediate kata 1st Kyu (3rd brown belt) Two intermediate/advanced kata Shodan-ho (provisional black belt) 5 Kihon, 5 Pinan, and 3 Naihanchin kata Plus two advanced kata Shodan (1st black belt) 5 Kihon, 5 Pinan, and 3 Naihanchin kata Plus two new advanced kata *From 8th kyu through 5th kyu you test on the required pinan plus 4 different intermediate kata. ** Starting with 4th kyu you can re-test on the first 4, but from here on out you have to use new kata. The main intermediate kata are – Kensei dai, Matsukaze, Aoyanagi, Jyuroku, Rohai Shodan, Jiin, Jitte. We can choose which ones we want to test on. The most popularly used advanced kata used for testing, from 1st kyu through shodan, are Annanko, Bassai dai, Seipai, Seinchin, Rohai nidan, and Jion. Sometimes people use Nipaipo or Annanko henka (variation). There are also a boatload of other advanced kata we practice but are not tested on. By shodan we are expected to know all of the above, plus Matsukaze henka, Bassai Syo, Tomari Bassai, Rohai Sandan, and Kosokun Dai. Advanced students also practice Nipaipo, Matsamura ha Bassai, Anan, Ennpi, whatever, a whole lot of kata. We are also tested on kobudo (weapons) kata, and have to have earned shodan in kobudo before being awarded shodan ho (provisional black belt) in karate do. These are the kobudo kata requirements. 10th kyu – Bo no kihon kata 9th kyu – Sai no kihon kata ichi and ni 8th kyu – Syushi no kon syo 7th kyu – Sai no kihon kata san and shi 6th kyu – Syushi no kon dai 5th kyu – Rohai no sai 4th kyu – Rohai no kon 3rd kyu – Tsukken shitahaku no sai 2nd kyu – Kaibo ten no kata 1st kyu – Kaibo jiin no kata Shodan-ho – Kaibo chi no kata Shodan -- Kobo Sensei is very picky, and even if we are working hard on a weapons kata it is not uncommon to work on the same one for 9 months to a year, sometimes more! We generally review just a few kata a week, just for memory, but are only deeply working a few at a time. Except for kihon, pinan, and naihanchin, which we work on regularly. It is nice to really go into one or two kata for a while, then work on others, then go back and rework the earlier ones and see what else you can get out of it. Then we spend about half of our time on basics, drills, applications, and sparring. Anyway, hopefully this helps to explain why it can take 10 or more years to reach shodan in our school! This has been a really long post, so I am not going to go into a big discussion about the relative merits or the lack thereof of such a system. It is definitely not that they are trying to keep people around for the money. For one thing we are a non-profit, and the teachers do not get paid. Also, people generally stay after reaching black belt (unless they are moving away for various life reasons) because they like the training and like the place. A heck of a lot of people do leave in the intermediate ranks, though, you can be sure of that! You can berate this system if you want to, but I think it’s great training. Not to sound like a name dropper or anything, but my organization did manage to produce the likes of George Kotaka and Elisa Au, both of whom have multiple world championships in kumite, as well as many other great fighters. If you think it’s only point sparring, well, I think they would hold their own in a “real” fight as well! But… maybe it is a few too many kata.

A little off topic from the idea of "punishment", perhaps, but in my school we all get criticized constantly, even high ranking very experienced people. The only ones who don't get picked apart are the ones sensei has given up on. I don't think we should take it personally when we are criticized in front of the class. It's so that we can get better.

Related to my previous post, I found this (what I thought was ) interesting article on the two kata in question. http://www.bushido-kai.net/images/downloads/Empi.Matsukaze.Wankan.pdf

At first I thought Wankan was the same as our Ennpi kata, but looked it up and found out that it corresponds to what we call Matsukaze, and Ennpi is Wanshu. I was all excited that Sensei 8 was extolling Ennpi/Wanshu, which is one of my favorites. We actually teach Matsukaze around 8th kyu level, but then we test on it again later (much improved, hopefully). I am planning on using it as one of my ik-kyu kata. The funny thing is, I never really cared about Matsukaze before, but lately have been appreciating it more. It is one of our important kata, so I have to know it well, and there are some basics aspects that I particularly need, such as keeping my center low on the turning into neko ashi dachi, for one. Not to mention, anything that involves standing on one foot for any length of time is still a challenge for me. Anyway, I know it's a cliche, but it's funny how as we learn more we appreciate things that we previously couldn't even see. There is more to this kata than I had previously thought!

Nope. Ha ha, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I've never ridden a motorcycle and never even thought about it. I have been thinking I might like to get a Vespa some day -- does that count? Ha ha ha, probably not, sorry, I'm just funning w/you. Carry on.

Probably Seipai at the moment, but we have so many kata it is hard to choose just one. I also love Bassai Dai, and one thing I think is funny, we also practice Bassai Syo (Sho) and Matsamura ha Bassai, and I really don't care for them very much. I'm not really sure why I love one kata over another -- I'll have to think about it more.

Very good, joesteph. Well, I am sitting here feeling very good about myself because I didn't fall for the joke for more than a few seconds. Please understand... I have often felt that I must be the most gullible person in the universe, so I was pretty proud of it! Even so, Patrick did a great job of not caving. I hope that GeoGiant didn't really leave 'cuz of it, though.

Maybe it has to do with the pronunciation of the "n" sound changing to "m" befor the "p" and "b" sounds, but not the "s" sound? Just wondering -- I am certainly no expert on the Japanese language.

Hey GeoGiant -- Do you know what date it is?

I have enjoyed all of the good responses to my question, and it's interesting to see that there are reasonable arguments to both sides, pairing with someone close in size vs. mixing it up. Several people mentioned that they would match up beginners with someone near the same size, and I think this makes sense. However, neither I nor the dojo mate in question is a beginner! We are both second kyu, and both have more than 10 years experience in our style, hers consecutively, and in my case 4+ years currently, 6+ years in the past. We train 3-5 times a week, and have been consistent. We do rotate partners in most paired exercises, including sparring drills and free sparring, but I think the reason sensei pairs us up by size in one-step is that it's more formalized. It's not just making it work, but they emphasize precision to a great degree, every foot movement, precise set for blocks, full extension, etc. It just looks prettier and works better (usually) with symmetrical sizes. At 2nd kyu it's still at least 2 years until we can test for black belt, but even so we are training one-step in preparation for it, so we can make it work and have good basics. quoting ps1: YES! This is what has been bugging me! This is exactly it, you are much more likely to hurt, and I am too, if you want me to go slow, and it's much safer to just go with it. Oh well, it's none of my business but I don't see how she can progress without getting past this timidity. It's only my business to the extent that it impacts my own training, which it does. I have e-mailed sensei about it, but we have not had a chance to speak yet. I am sure it can be worked out one way or another. Thanks for helping me figure it out, everyone.

I am wondering what other schools do in terms of pairing people up for exercises that involve takedowns. This might be a good question especially for you judoka -- do you partner up with people of all different sizes generally, or are you paired up by size in class? The reason I am asking, in my school we don't do a lot of throws/takedowns. Some of the blackbelts might do them in tournament sparring (point sparring) when the opportunity presents itself, but not often. The main place it comes up is in one-step sparring. I'm also not sure if everyone's one-step has a takedown as the 3rd defense against each technique, but we do. What is bugging me is that most of the time I am paired up with the person who is closest to my size, which in height is short, but I am much more sturdy thatn she is. More importantly, she is very timid and fearful of falling, in spite of being 2nd kyu like me, and training for many years (like more than 10). This is incredibly frustrating, because I rather enjoy getting thrown around, and need to be able to practice my takedowns! Often how it goes is that I will do the takedown once (usually we do it on a count, and the other pairs do that one several times before we move on to the next technique). Anyway, typically the first time might be OK, but there is a look of fear, holding back, on my partner's face, and I am informed of any areas that are painful and how that was for her and where I need to be careful. This makes me feel more tense, OK, I don't want to injure anyone, then maybe we will do it a second time, then she will say to just go to the setup because she doesn't want to fall any more. The thing is, sometimes I am paired up with one of the black belts who is bigger than me and they keep telling me I need to not hold back, to go harder. I usually do the first couple of takedowns on them pretty wimpily, being used to trying not to hurt anyone, but after 3 or 4 I'm in my stride and do them fairly well, with control, usually, but if I mess it up they know how to fall and aren't whining about it. Anyway... long winded as usual. I know I need to talk to sensei, and I have mentioned it to a couple of the other black belts, so they are aware of it. I don't want to make it sound like I think I'm all that, and I know we can all learn something from everyone, but I am not getting enough practice in being able to do these takedowns properly. What I really want to know, is it usual for schools or styles that use a lot of throws and takedowns to mostly pair people up by size, or do you mix it up? I don't want to be disrespectful to sensei, but in my opinion size should not matter -- within limits, I probably wouldn't attempt a takedown against someone who outweighed me by a hundred pounds. But it seems to me it's about mostly body mechanics and leverage, and needs to be applicable to a range of body types and sizes. So, what do you all do?

I meant, of course, that he stood up there and act like he was entitled to the 1st place medal. Though apparently he solved the problem for himself by declaring that he had a platinum medal -- jeesh.

Quoting Jeffrey: Right! And placing at all says even more! I was particularly amazed by that mens x-c skiing event on the last day. They'd all been skiing their butts off for 50 k already, then they get to the end, and the winners were within one or two seconds of each other, if I remember correctly. It is incredible to me that they can be so equal in skill and ability to come in so close over so much time. I guess it speaks to being trained to the limits of what the human body to endure. Re: Pleshenko -- I did know that story, that he thought that because he had a quad and the others didn't he should have won. The point is, too bad, the judges didn't think so. The fact is that he just didn't skate as cleanly as the others, and had a few bobbles that really stood out in contrast to the others, and he got deductions for them. I couldn't stand the way he stood up there on the podium in 2nd place, rolling his eyes, and his assumption that he was entitled to the 2st place medal. He should be ashamed of his bad attitude. In contrast, Ohno was always gracious, even when he thought a call against him was unfair, he shrugged it off and figured there were times when they should have called something against him and didn't. He is a true Olympian, Pleshenko not so much. (And it has nothing to do with what country they are from.)

Congratulations to Canada on the hockey win! To be honest, most of the time I couldn't care less about hockey, but I can certainly appreciate the drama of the U.S. - Canada game. Well, even though I am from the U.S., I am glad that Canada won, because they sponsored the games and hockey is so freaking important to them! Plus it was such an exciting game, going into overtime, and the U.S. has nothing to be ashamed of, coming into 2nd. One thing that seems funny -- a lot of the time people that come in 3rd in the Olympics are thrilled just to have placed, but people who come in 2nd are often very dejected, feeling that they "lost". What's up with that? I myself would be very happy to have an Olympic silver medal! Maybe in my next life... ha ha ha. Anyway, I have mixed feelings about the games being over. I am relieved because I have been staying up too late every night, but I am sad that it's over. I am also overwhelmed by the amazing heart that was shown by all of the athletes. Well, most of them at any rate. What's up with that sore loserman Russian skater? Well, aside from him, it was inspiring to see the overall athleticism and good sportsmanship shown by all. Great job, Canada, on putting on a great Winter Games!

Wow, I have not read the original article, but this is pretty ridiculous. Imagine if President Obama were a martial artist, and you entered a tournament and got out in the ring and discovered that your opponent was the Prez. I'm so sure! Maybe Putin was just saying that, but it would be very strange if he were allowed to follow through with it!

I would like to get a nice heavy weight karate gi that fits me really well -- without having to pay custom gi prices. I am 5'1", and weigh about 120 - 125. My problem is that a little too much of those pounds are around the middle. I'm not really fat, just a little "distribution challenged". Anyway, at my height I always have to hem the pants and sleeves, even if I buy tournament cut, so that's no problem. But if I get a gi that fits well around the middle, the rest of me is swimming in it, plus there is so much extra material in the back, from neck to waist, that my gi is constantly slipping backward as I train, and I have to keep tugging on it. So far my best fitting gi has been the Juka Emerald. I also have a Tokon (Kamikaze) America and Tokon Spirit. A friend with similar size issues recommended a Toyo, and my teacher said that Shureido is also good for people with stocky builds like myself. The Shureido goes for upwards of $200 U.S., and I think the Toyos are around $160. I wouldn't mind paying this much if I knew it was going to fit really well, but I haven't been able to find anyplace that stocks them so I have to order by mail and can't try them on first. Does anyone on here have a similar size profile, with experience with either of these karate gis, or another that fits well? If I have to I will have one custom made, but that's a lot of money!!

Awesome post, tonydee. I'll have to chew on that one for a while!

I am obsessed with the Winter Olympics, I'm not exactly sure why. For some reason it grabs me much more than the Summer Olympics, and it's not like I do any of the sports involved. I am fascinated by what motivates people to train at such high levels, and I think that having competed in little regional karate tournaments gives me that much more appreciation for what they are going through. If I practice my kata well over and over again in the dojo, and then mess it up in a tournament when it really counts, it can be so disappointing! But I can always try again in a few months, and not have to wait 4 years. It amazes me that people work so hard, and then can lose by hundreths of a second and not lose their mind! Which I probably would!

Quoting JAKEHE3078: I would take the 10,000 kicks saying to mean that the 10,000 kicks had been practiced with guidance from a good teacher, and with understanding and good form! Of course if you practice them badly you will learn them badly, but it is better to practice a kick well 10,000 times than to practice a kick well 12 times!

Quoting Toptomcat: Tomcat, that was really funny! Of course, I tend to think that the people on here who are into traditional Japanese MA's are the smartest, wisest, and most correct thinking. Well not really, I am an open minded person, I am open to all opinions, even if the ones that don't agree with mine are wrong. Anway... I practice kobudo because it is an integral part of my school's curriculum, and if I want to train there I have to -- nothing more and nothing less. We have to work our way through 10 levels of kobudo, with 14 kata total in bo, sai, and kaibo, before or simultaneous with earning shodan in karate-do. It takes forever. Of course if I didn't like, agree with, and enjoy my school's curriculum, I would be training somewhere else! I happen to love kobudo, and I'm not even sure why. I am very drawn to the aesthetics of all of the Japanese arts, so that's part of it. As a short person, I enjoy the feeling of extension of power that I get with weapons. Whether studying them and practicing them is helpful to me in terms of defending myself, I don't know. Certainly I think that the practice of handling various "implements", using them with power and focus, can be translated into using objects in a self defense situation. But then self defense is only a part of why I train -- I can't really put a percentage of importance on it -- so I would probably enjoy training kobudo even if it was useless for self defense. But that's just me, and of course everyone who sees it this way as well is a genius!

An iphone or blackberry palm pre or some other smartphone -- I am still researching.

I forgot to mention -- I find it interesting that my first inclination is to say "reverse punch" rather than "gyaku zuki", and lunge punch rather than "oi zuki", even though we use the Japanese terms in class, and I do know them. Just sayin', what comes natural is only natural! It seems to me that in a high stress situation we are most likely to do what comes naturally, so it makes the most sense to strengthen that. But thinking about the more stylistic/formal aspects of karate, I lean towards wanting to balance things. Hmmm....

I can see the wisdom of both sides -- no pun intended. In terms of one-step sparring, we don't practice it a lot until 4th kyu or so. At first we only practice on the right (or dominant) side, then later practice punches and kicks on both sides. It is weird how different it feels on the other (weaker) side -- especially take-downs. In terms of free sparring, I have historically been pretty ambidextrous with my legs, but my right hand punch is way stronger and more dominant than the left. I do like to change my stances up and use both legs for kicks, but that has been complicated by the fact that my left hip joint seems to be wearing out faster than the right. As a school, though, I would like to see us emphasize strengthening the non-dominant side more, since I think too many people are locked into always using their dominant side. However, as Tallgeese says, when it comes down to it I am going to use my strongest techniques, and there is a neurological aspect to which side is stronger. In theory, I think I favor training the dominant side at least 3/4 of the time, and the other side the rest, but in practice it's more like 90% to 10%. I can understand the arguement as well that it is better to train both sides equally, or even train the non-dominant side more, to equalize things. It always comes down to a cost-benefits ratio. We do not have unlimited training time, so we have to make best use of it, which in my opinion means mostly focusing on strengthening the strengths, and working on weaknesses only enough so they don't get too weak. Great topic!