Prototype

Then you're my type of instructor.glad to hear not all Karate instructors are like that. Functionality should take presidence

So you don't think a pure boxer would have the advantage against a modern day Kickboxer in American Kickboxing rules if the bout was held today? That is to say KB purists with no Karate background.

A user here claimed that above the waist american style kickboxers back in the day were at a disadvantage against pure boxers due to the rules prohibiting sweeps, but from my understanding, american kickboxer don't learn sweeps and other traditional martial arts stuff. So let's set the record straight. THe ones who were surely at a disadvantage rules-wise was boxers..who had to face kicks.. Yet they dominated enough to have the rule set changed to 8 kick minimun per round

Key word is "loose"

The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway. Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it... If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks. If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep. Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them. As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot. My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc. See this thread... https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html I was referring to this stance, which nobody would take in any no holds barred fight: http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateunion_sku_news/img/back-stance.jpg Aka... Kokutsu dachi Aka back stance, aka L-stance

The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway. Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it... If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks. If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep. Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them. As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot. My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc. See this thread... https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html I was referring to this stance, which nobody would take in any no holds barred fight: http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateunion_sku_news/img/back-stance.jpg

The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway. Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it... If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks. If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep. Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them. As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot. My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight.

Maybe it's just confidence but I seem to have enhanced motor skills for punching when I revert back to karate style punching in sparring. Did you guys find that to be the case too?

What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement.

Don't worry about that. Any Taekwondo instructor worth his salt will not "care" how high you jump. It is not emphasized as much as people percieve it to be. There are legit 5 Dans who barely get off the ground so you are in good company. There really are no good tips... Some people jump better than others.

Isnt it more important to stress things like the actual strikes, in particular from stances used in free fighting? If you practice kata correctly you should be simultaneously training both amongst other things. Emphasising one over the other isn't necessary. A bit of a Sophie's choice imo. I've never had anyone correct my stances to be to so precise as in your experience. You're right in that they don't need to be so precise in self defence application but there's a quote I like from a greek poet named Archilochus that might be of interest: "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" Do you train for competition or is your school focused on it? I personally don't like shiai kata and don't think it's good for karate when there's more emphasis on appearance than effectiveness. My school is traditional and appearence does to take presidence since our instructor can spend 5 minutes on how feet should be placed in a ready stance... That is stance before the actual Kata!! The space between the fists to each other, position of the feet

Interesting. My experience has been very different. They stress positioning of the feet microscopicly. Also talk as if it was going to be applied in a SD situation in the stance, when of course it will not be. It's a complete disconnect between theory and practice. Same goes for blocks which are never used in sparring.

Isnt it more important to stress things like the actual strikes, in particular from stances used in free fighting?

Funakoshi said himself that a Karateka moves freely in an actual confrontation and is not fixated on stances. End of quote. Self defence/fighting scenario involves constant movement. So why do instructors stress something that is not meant for application? Is it some kind of esthetic vale they attach to kata stances? Why are they so strict about an inconsequencial part of self defence?

Isn:t it also true that AKB later started to roundhouse kick with the shin, influence by the effectiveness of Muay Thai, having originally used the instep?

Yes it definitely is awkward doing stances that small, I find there is some value in them though. Will you always have deep stances when attacked? Nope. Our fighting stances are more natural. There is a bit of a disconnect between our forms and application. Pretty much the same disconnect for all traditional martial arts.

You're absolutely correct. There's more than one way to skin a cat!! Having more in your arsenal is far better than having just one core; very limited. There's no such thing as that one core has everything; that's an illusion!! Imho!! I meant more learning different stances and bodymechanics without accidentally mixing in habits from the other one.

I would dispute calling it boxing.. The arm techniques are boxing but not the stances. The label is a bit ubfortunate

Wesley Snipes, a 5th degree black belt in Shotokan, readily admits that most Karatekas can't fight. The reason he says is because you learn forms and methodology but not real-life application. I think he has a very valid, though hardly original point.

I will never compete, just want to learn it as a martial art and be so fit that I could hypotethically go a match. The lifestyle of a boxer intrigues me, even though it's mostly upperbody glory.

I was surprised that I came to love the conditioning aspect of boxing. I thought beforehand that it would bore me out and that I wouldn't be commited, but I love the training culture. So that and the lack of bunkai, kata, and a single focus on one aspect really swayed me. I train both at the moment, but if I had to drop one of them, it would be my traditional martial art.

Yeah I was curious why you didn't train in a Kickboxing gym instead, since those are the rule-sets you were going to fight in? Are the boxing instructors in Kickboxing too poor?

Hmmm.. But Kickboxers don't use boxing stances to throw punches (hard to mix in kicks when you load up on punches and bend your knees so much), so did you ultimately drop the orthodox boxing stance in the Kickboxing ring and applied kickboxing-boxing?

I was surprised to find the orthodox boxing stance much more comfortable/natural than any Karate equivalent. A lot of cordination from my Karate training is still present as a beginner in boxing, but the bodymechanics is of course completely different. Did you find crosstraining boxing ultimately complimentary or conflicting to your Karate? Did you mix in Karate footwork into your sparring with any success?

I have never worn headgeard or mouthpiece so this will be something I need to get used to. Many people in my TKD/Kickboxing dojang reject mouthpiece due to the breathing adjustments