Prototype

I'm not sure they do, though.

Could it be that you are winning against the beginner students due to your TKD background? Knowing how to move will get you so far and will help you beat people with limited previous sparring experience. But as far as boxing basics go I can't imagine your TKD school taught you strict boxing movement. My ITF school did drill the basic boxing punches. But we did not use gloves and we did not hit a heavy bag.. The resistance from a heavy bag makes me sloppy, and also tires me quickly. My shadow boxing is not bad. I dominated secondary level guys, not beginners. The reason was because my hands were too quick against guys who mainly did technique training.. I would'nt read too much into the specific style.I dominate my fellow TKD guys with my hands as well. I have always had above average hand speed.

I don't know how many people have tried both but in Shotokan, you stop after the first technique has been thrown, whether it successfully touched the target or not. This ensures that proper technique will be used. All you need to focus on is a single technique. In continuos sparring format, like in ITF TaeKwonDo, you can throw 2 punches in succession. After that though you have to either stop or throw a kick, then you can punch again. Problems with the stop format is lack of realism, and that it's impractical against combinations. Problems with the continuos format is that punches tend to get watered down and reduced to wild swinging haymakers, with techniques being dilluted. So for self defence, one sparring format trains you to be precise, but doesn't really prepare you for prolonged interactions. The other does prepare your for prolonged interactions, but only so much.... and the technique aspect goes straight through the window. There is no refinement to what you do. It gets messy. Which in your experience or opinion is better of the two for self defence?

I was moved up a level to be able to do some more extensive sparring. I have 3 and a half years of background in ITF TaeKwonDo. My coach now did a major turn-around, because my technique on the heavybag is much worse than the other guys.The thing is I keep telling him that sparring is my strong suit. I have dominated his students my first sparring session, yet he still wants to move me down a level due to my poor technique on the heavy bag. What happened now is that I get to spar some intermediate guys on friday, and my coach said ; "no complaints if you get floored, okey?!" My question is is simply, should I have the confidence to spar his intermediate guys, concidering the the secondary level guys was easy for me, or should I just drop this gym? Will he try to set me up to prove a point? How would you handle it?

Isn't Mayweathers in-and out python style reministent of point Karate fighters in some way? I thought about this lately how some of it overlaps more than people think. Especially his side-on stance fighting were the weight distribution is identical to karate as well. Or am I totally crazy here?

Yes but the transitions are different in the parenthood Kung Fu forms. The criticism is that Karate katas lack flow. They are punch/kick stop with stiff transitions, whereas Kung fu forms have a stronger "interconnectedness" and a greater overall flow (perhaps footwork as well?). I have had old VHS tapes of legit Kung Fu forms and they are definately more coherent When it comes to flow, I think that's part matter of opinion, and part matter of style. I've seen Karate forms that flow beautifully, and Tae Kwon Do forms that look rigid and dull. I've also seen Kung Fu forms that look like a mess of sloppy motions. This is all a matter of perspective. Let's narrow it down to Japanese Karate, since this is what the overwhelming majority is exposed to.

Yes but the transitions are different in the parenthood Kung Fu forms. The criticism is that Karate katas lack flow. They are punch/kick stop with stiff transitions, whereas Kung fu forms have a stronger "interconnectedness" and a greater overall flow (perhaps footwork as well?). I have had old VHS tapes of legit Kung Fu forms and they are definately more coherent I still submit however that the shortcomings of Karate and TKD are the same as in Kung fu, no defence against boxing combinations, no head movement etc. None of that is learned in your katas and it's not drilled in free sparring either. So if you clone a person and have each clone train Kung Fu and traditional Karate respectively and have him face a kickboxer, the odds are that the same achilles heal would manifest itself - no head movement, subpar defence to boxing. So when people talk about kung fu vs Karate there are not fundamental differences in effectiveness IMO. The strenghts might be a bit different, but the weaknesses are pretty identical. Would you agree?

I am aware of the circular principles of a lot of Kung Fu styles and the emphasis of flow and coherency but beyond this, has Kung Fu training in your experience been a major difference (for better or worse) from the kicking and punching learned in Karate and Taekwondo? Common criticism of Karate and Taekwondo is that the forms don't relate to the sparring, in that the patterns are sequences of moves intendent for self defence against a novice, wheras free sparring is the true test, since the Karateka faces a somewhat knowledgable opponent, albeit under major rule restrictions.

I haven't found this to be case. It' mostly the weight factor of the glove that warps my technique. My arm does not follow through the motion as naturally and the hand positioning is more strained.

Also note that this is all we do as beginners, punching each others gloves.. There is no bagwork. I will just develop bad habits from this having partners who don't know how to hold the target.

Hi, after a month into boxing I'm wondering if my current concern is usual. Whenever I put on the 160z gloves and do basic combinations against my partners gloves, I don't feel my body movement is in sync with my punches, and my punches themselves get warped. 1. Gloves slow down the motion, negating the snap motion I have without gloves on. The gloves on my partner that I target to punch inhibit, rather than help my punching. 2. The weight and form of the gloves seem to warp my technique subconsioussly whenever I punch another persons glove, making me look quite mediocre relative to bareknuckled. 3 My partner is suboptimal at understanding how to hold his own gloves, in order for me to punch them most effectively. Also issue with distance, height, warping my techniques further. Note that I am serious pupil and understand the bodymechanics behind punching well enough, but the points below are clear obstacles. Isn't it better to skip punching each others gloves, given that beginners are clueless how to hold them? It hurts more than help my progression at this point.

Boxers generally don't. Sugar Ray Leonard and Andre Ward said mcgregor might use some of his martial arts movement against Mayweather. They clearly concidered themselves sport athletes, rather than martial artists

Yes we do, in particular boxing instructions against mitts/shields. Turning the hole body, told to completely abandon what we just drilled in Kihon(basics) . And it makes Zero sense. That's ITF taekwondo for you. Its parent art Shotokan might be more consistent.

On Google, martial arts is defined as: noun various sports, which originated chiefly in Japan, Korea, and China as forms of self-defence or attack, such as judo, karate, and kendo. This is a poor definition since Karate did not originate as a sport, and martial art and combat sport are distinct(or else this thread wouldn't exist). For the purposes of the discussion, let's define martial arts something along these lines "Combat arts applicable for self defence." I will go through a list of points why boxing, as traditionally practised, may or may not be concidered a martial art based on the definition above, based on its training culture. I will of course exclude instructors who are purposely defining boxing as a martial art and teaching it in their home-cooked self defence curriculum. 1.Argument against: "Boxing only teaches punches and dynamic movement. Self defence encompasses significant more elements than this". Argument For: Limited curriculum is nothing unique to boxing. Traditional Karate styles lacks both learning to do submissions as well as defending against them. Knowing how to defend against a submission might very well be a self defence scenario in todays MMA culture. 2. Argument against: Boxing instructors only teach tactics applicable in the sport, some of which may backfire in a self defence type of a fight. (Comment): The strongest argument against classifiying boxing gyms as a martial art schools. Argument for: While some of the boxing tactics (ducking, bobbing and weaving) may be counterproductive in a real fight, they could also work. No boxer is obligated to use those tactics in the ring either. They are simply tools learned. Similarly a Karate stylist may learn to do things in free style kumite that is counterproductive in a real fight. Thus, teaching sport tactic that may be ill-adivice on the streeet is against nothing unique to boxing. 3. Argument against: Boxing does not teach technical self defence, martial arts schools do. Argument for: Boxing teaches a skill set applicable for self defence. Self defence teachings are highly controversial due to the nature of the beast. It is not possible to realistically reacreate a self defence situation. Matters of psychology which takes presidence over anything else can not be recreated in a training situation, nor can it be "taught" how to respond. Everybody reacts differently, and you will never know how until confronted with the situation. 4. Arguments against: Boxing has no founder(s) and henceforth no philosophy. Arguments for: Having a founder and philosophy to the art is a questionable critera, since the definition of a martial art should be based in combat applicability. For the discussion: Do you define boxing among the martial arts or is it simply a sport with effective martial arts element in them? I am leaning towards classifiying boxing as martial arts. While everything is sport geared, that does not exclude it from being an effective combat art, and as have been already pointed out, traditional martial arts like Karate don't cover all aspects of fighting, even though they cover more than boxing,

Respectfully I would suggest you ask your instructor to show you. You're correct in that ITF went from linear > knee spring style > sine wave but really the last two are used in conjunction rather than one replacing the other. It is difficult to explain this without being there in person but sine wave requires a stance change otherwise it is just knee spring. (FWIW you also don't have sine wave when stance changing low -> high such as in Hwa Rang, L-stance to vertical stance.) Over time I thing it's fair to say it has become less effective because it has been exaggerated so much and gotten away from the original intention. However having done several IIC and ITS courses this year with the technical director for ITF (Vienna), there is definitely a focus on reigning it back in. But I think this is now straying away from your original question to the Karate folks on here? As for dropping weight as a way to generate power, Jack Dempsey's "falling step" in boxing is along the same lines: No. Jack Dempsey had a forward direction to the falling step/weight transfer. He didnt just advocate an up and down motion. Which is what sinewave is: moving in a direction with a weight drop. No. Sine wave is lifting and raising your body with an arm punch. You don't follow the punch. Imagine a sumo wrestler raising his body and punching.. It does nothing to the punch if the body doesn't follow the motion forward. Learning forward is a big no no in karate and tkd reverse punch

Respectfully I would suggest you ask your instructor to show you. You're correct in that ITF went from linear > knee spring style > sine wave but really the last two are used in conjunction rather than one replacing the other. It is difficult to explain this without being there in person but sine wave requires a stance change otherwise it is just knee spring. (FWIW you also don't have sine wave when stance changing low -> high such as in Hwa Rang, L-stance to vertical stance.) Over time I thing it's fair to say it has become less effective because it has been exaggerated so much and gotten away from the original intention. However having done several IIC and ITS courses this year with the technical director for ITF (Vienna), there is definitely a focus on reigning it back in. But I think this is now straying away from your original question to the Karate folks on here? As for dropping weight as a way to generate power, Jack Dempsey's "falling step" in boxing is along the same lines: No. Jack Dempsey had a forward direction to the falling step/weight transfer. He didnt just advocate an up and down motion.

Again, Sine-wave is not knee spring style! . Sine wave is down, up down. Knee spring is up, down. Also, both Knee spring and Sine wave is used in sitting stances, so it not just for when you move. Also from still walking stances with punches thrown, are you told to spring the knee or do the sine wave bounce

I don't think you're wrong there. In fact most people would say this is one of the reasons why it was added to ITF TKD. The KKW/WTF didnt though, they still punch karate style. Also, traditional TKD schools still punch the Shotokan way as you can see here http://www.taekwondo-pdx.com/gallery/videos/ Traditional Taekwondo schools aren't available everywhere though, and not all all traditional schools are Chang Hon (ITF pattern) style.

So you don't think I could develop into a decent (by gym standards) boxer by only training in the intermediate level group? Advanced group is only for competitors and that's out of the question for me. I'm 28 years old with no aspirations to compete no matter how good I might turn out to be. Not worth it for me.

Also, I don't want to hurt anybody but I do want to know if I possess t he ability to.. If that makes sense. I have been holding back in Karate training and have no idea if I have potential or not. I will never compete but I would like to see if I got power and skill

Why do people in the Olympics recieved a lot of head trauma? The rules don't reward knockdown. It's much more calm than professional boxing and more technique focused. Btw, headgear was mostly banned because it was found that the boxers subconciously neglected their guard more, thus hot punched more.

Ironically, I just watched Jesse Enkamp talking about how some Karate styles exaggerate hip movements, and did the exact same salsa-like motion as performed in Shorin Ryu.

I have no experience in TKD but if the mechanics are as you described it appears to be trying to generate power through dropping body weight at the same time as impact, not before as you described initially. Dropping the heal at the same time as punching or before is equally bad. You don't gain power from dropping you weight without any direction in on it. It is a complete misunderstanding of bodymechanics. the only way it would be applicable is if you punched or hammerfisted downwards

There are independent, traditional ITF style school that still punches the Karate way but they spend time on perfecting double twisting aerial kicks.. Demo type stuff that isn't even in the patterns. No thanks.

Knee spring and sine wave are two different things. Knee spring creates sine wave. Knee spring is in all (ITF) movements. Sine wave is only in movements which travel or involve a stance change (but not all stance changes). This is not true. In ITF Taekwon-Do you never finish the leg before the punch. Everything MUST finish at the same moment. The punch should finish as the leg drives straight and locks the stance. I'll admit that the movements you see nowadays are over the top with this movement (often for competition) but from what I've seen recently there is a conscious effort now to reign it back. For knee spring: 2.[i]"The heel of the rear foot should be raised slightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact" This negates the weight transfer meant by lifting the heel done in boxing to generate power, because you are supposed to switch weifght to the front foot and keep the back legs heel slightly up. In ITF TKD you set the back leg however to the ground and then punch. I know since I have a red belt in it.