Prototype

I have trained 2 years 2-3 times a week American Kickboxing type style. Meaning I have drilled boxing punches but never been taught any foot and head movement, or boxing combinations. TKD Kickboxing more specifically. I have mostly learned by doing in sparring and it has been semi contact, above the waist kickboxing. Do you guys think I will get blown away in Boxing and really suck as a beginner or is 2 years in TKD kickboxing somewhat of a head start Any tips in advance? Thanks.

Wouldn't a JKA Karateka get tagged in either format against a WKF Karateka? Is there any advantage with JKA?

JKA emphasises power? It's the same light contact stipulation. Only difference in JKA being that ippon can be awarded if the opponent steps into what turns out to be a knockout of himself. At least the JKA of the 70s and 80s.

Well, I have a close relative who was a world class JKA competitor in the late 70s and early 80s and he says that WKF competitors of today are faster.

There isn't much dispute that modern WKF competitors are lightening fast, second to none. My question is why JKA Karatekas haven't catched up to them given that the stand up fighting is identical and the fact that JKA is so big? The additional element of WKF involving sweeps have nothing do with how explosive practitioners of each organisation are at striking. Is it talentpool? Superior training methodology? Some obscure ruleset difference I am missing?

Anyway, since I am somewhat of a hobby expert on this: Chang Hon/ITF TKD has identical kicking techniques to Tang Soo Do, KKW, has both the traditional variation of kicking technqiues, and modernized sparring variation. The differences beyond that is some kung fu animal element in in TSD which TKD left behind. Katas are also different. TSD uses Shotokan katas plus a few kung fu ones, TKD has it's own stuff.

Surely that would be flashier? Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this: vs How do you know it's from Shotokan when Funakoshi copied and modified his Katas from Okinawans, who took it from Kung Fu...

OK the jump back kicks can be seen as "flashy". Other than that most of the other stuff is just basic side kicks and hook kicks. To the original question of which is closer to Shotokan, I do believe ITF looks closer. Most of the ITF patterns are lifted from Shotokan kata and the lower stances, lower kicks seem to me to be closer. Shotokan katas have in comparison: 0% spin kicks. 0% aerial kicks. 0% hook kicks. 0% Roundhouse kicks. The list goes on.. There are definitely mae geri, yoko geri, mikazuki geri and mawashi geri in Shotokan kata. Unsu is a pretty "flashy" kata for example containing these kicks: Of course TKD forms are going to be more "flashy" than their Shotokan counterparts if you equate "flashy" to "kicking". Its the Foot-Hand-Art. Kicking is an integral part of it. But to say that ITF are more flashy than the Kukkiwon counterparts, I disagree. Shotokan does not have a standing mawashi geri. It does have however a "lying down version of mawashi geri", but that's not the same.

So despite the revolution in kicking from TKD and the martial arts craze of the 70s and 80s, Shotokan dojos still kept it conservative and didn't change very much kicking wise?

OK the jump back kicks can be seen as "flashy". Other than that most of the other stuff is just basic side kicks and hook kicks. To the original question of which is closer to Shotokan, I do believe ITF looks closer. Most of the ITF patterns are lifted from Shotokan kata and the lower stances, lower kicks seem to me to be closer. Shotokan katas have in comparison: 0% spin kicks. 0% aerial kicks. 0% hook kicks. 0% Roundhouse kicks. The list goes on..

Another flashy ITF pattern: UIJ-JI There's tons of them..

I would say of the TKD styles out there, the WTF has done the most work of tying to make TKD stand out more from Shotokan and its Karate roots. This is easily seen in the progression of its form/poomsae syllabus over the years. Although performed differently, many of the poomsae (pattern) techniques in WTF are the same as in Shotokan but not in ITF. So based on the patterns, it's closer to Shotokan than ITF. Basically Everything has been modified in ITF patterns and the black belt patterns are much more extravagant (plenty of aerial kicks) compared to the ultra conservative WTF/KKW and Shotokan katas. I think I would actually say ITF patterns are much closer to Shotokan than the WTF ones, check out this thread where we've been comparing them: http://www.karateforums.com/tkd-forms-a-running-comparison-vt47646.html Excluding Juche and Moon Moo, the kicking in ITF patterns seems no more more extravagant than WTF poomse. Koryo is pretty flashy when it comes to kicks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH2wQsAUVwY You don't think Yon Gae is flashy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAh6zttP2nU

It was because Gishin Funakoshi was against any contact. A Karateka was to exercise control. His son Gigo, however, had free sparring in the dojo when his father was not present:)

Well, Funkakoshi banned "free sparring" for all students (only 1 step and 3 step sparring was allowed). If that's not softening an art, I don't know what is. The one good contribution was his personal refinements of the katas. I greatly appreciate the Shotokan Katas over Okinawas, especially over Shito Ryus shaking body movements. In ITF we have a sine wave/knee spring, which was introduced in the 80s to further separate TaeKwon-Do from Karate. Shotokan katas are the purest to me, with proper hip rotation and nothing fancy in between.

Well, Funkakoshi banned "free sparring" for all students (only 1 step and 3 step sparring was allowed). If that's not softening an art I don't know what is. The one good contribution was his personal refinements of the katas. I greatly appreciate the Shotokan Katas over Okinawas, especially over Shito Ryus shaking body movements. In ITF we have a sine wave/knee spring, which was introduced in the 80s to further separate TaeKwon-Do from Karate. Shotokan katas are the purest to me, with proper hip rotation and nothing fancy in between.

,,

That's not what I've heard: From what I've been told the Japanese government TOLD Funakoshi to make the art less vicious and brutal, and thus he taught them good fundamental karate, just left out some of the "secret teaching"...he says in his own books that the karate of Japan is a far cry from what he learned in Okinawa, and recommends grappling, throwing and locking be part of the practice. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120215041509AA5hgj7

But how would one know in advance before joining? Aren't there any tell off-signs? I suspect an instructors answer would be quite vague.

There's this claim on Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forum that Goju Ryu has both a Japanese watered down version, similiar to the other Japanese Karate styles, while the Okinawan style of Goju Ryu is more tough training, akin to Kyokushin. They claim UFC fighter Gunnar Nelson trained the Japanese one. Is there any validity to these claims, and how would you know in advance which is which?

I agree!! Does anyone know his rank?? I know he's of no particular core style anymore, according to his writings. He's a 4th Dan. I would like to know which style. It's one of the original ones, but it could be either Okinawa or Japanese.

But how much time spent on it is the key question.

I think I "learned" a front kick in 6 months when taking Shotokan as a kid. It wasn't at all what it was promoted as (more kicking oriented). And I was frankly impatient and bored. Even this old video paints a very different picture.

I am quite happy with my choice of ITF TaeKwon-Do since 2 years back. Just wanted to know what it's like in the Shotokan world!

How much drills would you estimate you guys devote to punches vs kicks? I train ITF/Chang Hon-TaeKwon-Do which was based on Shotokan and Id' say it's roughly 80% kicks in drills (mitts), while training basics (excluding patterns) it's 95% hand techniques. I suspect our grandmasters age (60+) has something to do with it because he does not demonstrate any elaborate kicks, thus has no interest in devoting the basics to it. Which is a shame given that he's a 9th Dan (highest). I am sure he knows a thing or too about kicking... The asisstant instructors are the ones demonstrating kicks in our power training (mitts).

If I'm not mistaken then, the only "new news" here isn't so much that ITF folks can compete in WTF tournaments, it's that finally WTF folks are allowed to compete in ITF tournaments. Yes? ITF-TaeKwon-Do black belts were not eligible to compete in the Olympics before this decision.