JR 137

I was thinking solely along the lines of techniques, but I agree with everything you said. Your “Western Soke” reminded me of something I’ve seen a few times... A guy trains under a pretty well known teacher from Japan or Okinawa. Leaves at perhaps nidan-sandan. Trains under another one, and the same thing. And another one and again the same thing. Sometimes they’re all the same art but different styles/organizations, such as karate. Sometimes a few are the same, and one will be a grappling art and/or a sword art. Then somehow after running his own school for a few years, he’s surpassed every teacher he’s ever had in rank. His highest teacher was perhaps 8th dan, the highest anyone’s awarded him was something like 4th dan, and now he’s 9th dan (the humble one ), or 10th dan. Sure. Then again, maybe they add up all the stripes from all the ones they were given and put them all on one belt. And maybe add one more because it’s been a while since they promoted in any of those arts individually. Dan ranking is cumulative after all

I’ve been trying to figure out what techniques really aren’t necessary, and I’m honestly not coming up with much. To bring another thread here, too many kata. There’s a balance between enough and too much. For me personally, I could do without some of the open hand strikes - nukite/spear hand, ippon nukite (one finger strike), stuff like that. I’m never going to condition my hands for stuff like that to be effective, and I don’t think 90% of the people out there will either. I’d say eliminate the flashy kicks like spinning and jumping kicks, but they’re great for developing athleticism and everything that goes with it. It would be like eliminating strength training because movements like squats don’t have a direct fighting application.

Most of what’s been posted are things I’d consider principles rather than actual techniques. I agree with them all, of course. If I could only do one thing, but it would work every single time, no matter what the attack was, it’s very simple: Sweep Every time they came within contact distance, I’d sweep them, and they’d end up on the ground and out of range. If someone can’t touch me, they can’t do anything. How would it go if you got swept before every punch? Before every kick? Before every takedown? Before every throw? Before, well, everything? There’s an older yondan at the dojo that I call the custodian. He sweeps people like it’s his job. Whenever I’m sparring him, I know if I didn’t get swept, it’s because he chose not to rather than couldn’t. Sometimes he sweeps me, sometimes he just taps my foot to remind me. And when he didn’t do either of those, it’s still on my mind

The benefits I saw from weapons training was gaining a better understanding of movement. Your movement changes when you’re training weapons like the bo. Hand-eye coordination also improves. It certainly doesn’t make someone a worse martial artist IMO.

One could look at it another way too... The people with (I guess severe) test anxiety didn’t go to college in previous generations, so it wasn’t seen rather than it didn’t exist. Same thing as your “I’m not good at math” example, only it was “I’m/you’re not college material” back then. The more we accommodate people’s needs, the more stuff comes out of the woodwork. There’s always been the strong and the weak, brave and scared, motivated and lazy, and so on. The only new thing is we’re more accepting of the second group in each of those examples, give them a better chance, and we’re more accepting of them. Good or bad, correct or incorrect, that’s the way I see it. Just my opinion.

As you said, absolutely talk to your sensei. He/she sees you day in and day out and knows your strengths and weaknesses. We can’t see what you’re doing right and wrong. But general advice, stay calm and focused, regardless of how well or poorly it’s going. Once you get overly anxious, things will fall apart. Once you feel truly defeated, things will fall apart. Sometimes it’s just a matter of gaining more experience. There’s no substitute for experience. Experience will help you better see the openings, the tells, give you more confidence, and all that other good stuff. Quite often the more experienced person knows what the opponent will do before the opponent even knows what he’ll do because he’s seen it over and over again. And he’s responded in many different ways, learning what works for him and what doesn’t. There’s no substitute for experience (did I say that yet ). There’s a saying in karate that goes “knocked down 7 times, get up 8 times” and it’s applicable here. Don’t let this event keep you down. We all question and doubt ourselves. We’ve all had days where we’ve asked ourselves “what have I learned the entire time I’ve been here?” We’ve all been completely shut down by someone much better than us at one point or another. What keeps us all going is doing everything we can to not allow it to happen again, even though we know deep down that it will. I’ve sparred with people significantly above my rank and my abilities practically every time I’ve tested. I can’t remember a test that I didn’t, but there may have been one in there somewhere. No teacher/examiner in their right mind is expecting you to “beat” that person; he/she is expecting you to do your best, push yourself, and watching how you’ll react to the setbacks. IMO that’s the truest test. We’re typically our own worst critics. That can and should be a good thing. In some instances it works against us. Don’t let it work against you. Fall down seven times, get up eight!

I’ve thought about this quite a bit. But I guess I’ll start with the initial question... How many kata does one need? We need to first define the purpose of kata to the practitioner. To some, each kata is a complete fighting system in and of itself. So one kata should easily suffice. Keep in mind that not all kata were designed like this. It’s been said that the Pinan series were Kanku and/or another kata (I forget which one) cut up and reworked a bit for the purpose of teaching children and beginners easier. So those don’t fit the “complete system” description, along with other similarly short and repetitive kata such as many kyu level kata. I think the older and longer kata such as Kanku/Kusanku, Bassai, Gojushiho, Suparimpei, etc. COULD fit the “complete system” individually if the “complete system” notion is correct. So for the older and longer kata, I don’t see much sense in learning a handful at best if you’re studying and dissecting them as much as possible. If your purpose in kata is competition, you need several go-to kata. There are multiple round tournaments where the competitor is required to do a different kata each time. Then there are tournaments series where you need to win to move on to the next level tournament. A serious competitor probably doesn’t want to do the same kata at each leg/level so the judges don’t get bored watching them and the competition doesn’t try to one up them. Or if you see someone doing the kata you’ll do during your turn and that person does it better than you know you can, you can do something else. So it’s really helpful to know a lot of kata. Then there’s individuals like Mabuni Kenwa, who according to Spartacus Maximus, was more or less cataloging kata for preservation’s sake. Not a bad thing at all to have a living encyclopedia of kata in a sense. There are also schools that use kata as little more than a filler in the syllabus, using kata as a way to test students for promotion. They can load up on the kata list to make their curriculum seem more comprehensive, intentionally or unintentionally. Up to a point, the more the better. If someone told me their school did 92 kata, and I actually took him seriously, I’d have three questions: 1. How many are empty hand kata, and how many are kobudo kata? - If they’re learning, say 3 kata at each rank, and a few kata for each weapon, the number of total kata adds up pretty quickly. 2. How long are the kata? - I’ve seen some Chinese forms/“kata” that are a handful of steps/counts. If many kata are 5-10 moves, doing 50 short kata could be like doing 10 regular 20 step/count kata. Is there a rank where no new kata is taught anymore? If your organization stops teaching new kata at 5th dan while another organization has new kata all the up to and including 10th dan (or even 15th dan ), then there’s obviously going to be more kata taught, all else being equal. 92 kata? I have no interest in that. That seems like collecting kata rather than perfecting it. With that many, even if their sole purpose is the outward performance, how high can the standards be? I can’t see it as much more than memorizing it is “good enough” vs really performing it well. But maybe not. If I ever started my own organization, I’d have 5 kyu kata total, and one kata at each dan rank up to and including 5th or 6th dan. So a 10 kyu syllabus would look something like this: 10th kyu - Sanchin kata and beginner bunkai 9th kyu - Sanchin kata advanced bunkai 8th kyu - Gekisai Dai kata and beginner bunkai 7th kyu - Gekisai Dai advanced bunkai 6th kyu - 1st kyu - I think you get the pattern I’d also separate kobudo out and teach it separately as its own system with separate rank. I’d probably throw a few kobudo kata and drills into the karate syllabus starting at 2nd or 1st kyu to give students exposure to it and getting them to move in different ways, but nothing too in-depth. But all that said, I’ll cross that imaginary Kaicho of my own organization bridge when I get to it

The transfer process goes like this in my country: you pay some money to your previous Sensei, s/he gives you that reference thing if s/he is O.K. with your leaving the club, and only then can you become a member of a new club. Well, actually, this is good advice, thanks, LLLEARNER I regularly practice karate at least once a week. I think I'm a bit afraid of forgetting and losing everything I have practiced and learned so far, and never being able to return and continue from where I have left. I have never taken a break from karate since I started ten years ago -except a three-month-period when I broke a limb, and another period because of a nastier injury. But anyway, taking at least a few months off would really help me make up my mind. I have recently discovered a Kyokushin karate club and joined one session, and I think what they practice is closer to what I want to learn. Maybe I should go talk to that Sensei to let me in for some time and get to know their style better. Karate and judo are similar in some respects, as far as I know, too, but in my karate club, we never practiced judo techniques. You do not have to think about what a technique is for or whether it is useful that way, even if you sacrifice the correct technique for showing off and looking flashy in kata. I have little knowledge of how techniques in kata can be used against actual opponents. Judo, however, is much more realistic in that sense. So you can’t leave one club and join another without the original club’s owner’s written permission? That could quite possibly be the most absurd thing I’ve heard in the martial arts, and I’ve heard some pretty crazy stuff. I’m not saying you’re misinformed, as I don’t know where you live and train, I’m just saying that that policy is pretty crazy. It’s one thing if you’re transferring from one club to another club within an organization, ie transferring from the NYC branch of Joe’s Karate School to the Los Angeles branch of Joe’s Karate School. While I wouldn’t completely agree with it, I could see that being done for paperwork, rank, and instructors in the same organization not competing with each other and stuff like that. But to leave a school and start somewhere else entirely? It’s mind boggling to me. Are you sure this is an official policy, like a legal policy that’s applicable to all MA schools in your country, or is this something you’ve heard that could be urban legend? Kind of like the urban legend here in the US that black belts must register their hands and feet as lethal weapons with their local police department. It’s pure nonsense, but people still actually believe it. I’d check with an independent party to make sure it’s an actual policy and not something people have made up to keep students from leaving.

Man that is a blast from the past technique. An old instructor (boxing) of mine tied my right arm up for two months until I learned to use my left. Thanks for jogging the old memory Bob. Great stuff! My former sensei tied me to another student once so I couldn’t “run” during sparring. He tied us together with a belt’s length between us. He did it to a few others here and there too. Thanks for jogging my memory. I hadn’t thought about that one in years

I don’t get what you’re saying here. There are only 5 Pinan kata. What do you mean by “we only do 5?” You only do Pinan 5, you only do Pinan 1-5, or you only do 5 total kata, and one of them is a Pinan?

To go along with what everyone has said, including me about using a Shotokan syllabus... Anecdotally speaking, I’m pretty sure the Pinan series are the most common kyu/colored belt kata. Looking around a bit, it seems like more schools do those kata then don’t do them. The Pinan/Heian (depending on pronunciation) series are done by more schools than just Shotokan. If I were to start a school where I knew many students would go elsewhere and continue training, the Pinan series would be a no-brainer to me. I’d add in others to fill the gaps, but the Pinan series would the emphasis. For reference, again, Kanazawa is the authority IMO. Others may have some slight variations, but if they haven’t changed the kata too much, those variations would be easily adjusted for. No one who knows what they’re actually doing will see a student perform a Kanazawa kata and scratch their head.

Interesting

To’on Ryu is still around. It was founded by one of Kanryo Higashionna’s students who I believe trained alongside Miyagi. At least equal in rank to Miyagi at the time, but quite possibly Miyagi’s senior. Not that they held rank like today, it you know what I mean. If Higashionna knew Seiunchin at the time, I’d be willing to bet To’on Ryu’s founder was taught it and he passed it along. Most sources I’ve seen state Higashionna taught Miyagi Seiunchin, rather than Miyagi creating it or learning it after Higashionna’s death. Miyagi learned and/or developed a few kata after Higashionna’s death. I don’t believe Seiunchin was one of them. I’m also lead to believe Seiunchin is one of the oldest karate kata.

Congratulations!

Kintaro is also a character from the Mortal Kombat series video games.

Do the Naha-Te styles typically share Seiunchin? Along with Sanchin, of course. I think the Shorin-Ryu schools typically claim Naihanchi is the most important kata, and the Naha-Te styles claim Sanchin is their most important. Uechi-Ryu claims Sanchin as their most important too.

While I’m pondering Shotokan kata and syllabi, this question has always perplexed me... What exactly does “Optional Kata” mean? Does the student choose which “optional kata” he/she will learn? Does the teacher decide which ones? Is it that they learn them all, but they can choose which one(s) to perform during a test? Or is it that they learn them all, but the examiner decides which one(s) they’ll test the student on? I just can’t understand it. Both organizations I’ve been in, everyone is taught the same kata for each respective rank, and everyone’s tested on every kata. There’s no optional anything. I actually could see some good in optional kata from an age ability standpoint. Take a kata like Unsu. It’s highly athletic, and typically a 4th dan kata. If you’ve got a yondan who’s up there in age and isn’t going to be able to adequately perform it no matter how hard they try, why bother with it? Have them do a different kata that they’re capable of doing adequately and can pull equally useful bunkai from. I guess what I’m saying is I know quite a few guys who’ve gotten higher up in rank and aren’t in their physical prime that are required to do kata that should be reserved for people in their 20s and 30s. Unsu kata, for reference: Or better yet, Seido Empi No Kata Sho

I’m not a Shotokan guy, so take my post as you will. I’ve read a lot about it, so I’m going by some assumptions here... Are you looking for a Shotokan list of kata? There are many Shotokan syllabi online. Here’s the JKA’s (Japan Karate Association) syllabus: https://www.jka.or.jp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/b98c5e1514acc9fe91bbbc4b2fcb79f2.pdf There are a ton of Shotokan kata videos online. IMO the definitive version of Shotokan kata has to be Kanazawa. I’d watch his videos for reference. As far as “Kintaro” being a weird version of Seiunchin, I’ve never heard of Kintaro. But more importantly, I’ve never seen Seiunchin being on any Shotokan syllabus. If you’re looking to keep the kata list Shotokan, I’d go with the JKA’s syllabus. I’d also go by Kanazawa’s versions. I don’t think anyone would be laughed out of anywhere if the students went elsewhere with that knowledge. That’s assuming you can teach them the kata correctly. Last thought - you’ll sometimes see “kihon kata” listed on a Shotokan syllabus. I’ve been lead to believe that’s an alternative name for Taikyoku 1/Shodan. I’ve also seen many Shotokan syllabi that doesn’t include the 3 Taikyoku kata; I believe those schools teach them to the kids rather than the adults.

While Shureido seems to follow very tight tolerances for a “mass producer” (I guess that’s relative to a person making single custom stuff), you’re absolutely correct. That being said, the custom woodworker isn’t guaranteed to make a better weapon than someone like Shureido. The best they can do is make exactly what you (the customer) specify. If your specs aren’t accurate due to either a mistake in measuring or due to not knowing the intricacies of the weapon, the weapon is going to be inferior. The perfect scenario is a woodworker who has experience using and making the weapons. Good luck finding that though.

Sorry to hear about this, Bob. Doesn’t sound very good. I know you’ll pull through and right by everyone; you seemingly always have. Going solely by what I’ve seen you post here over the past 3 years or so I’ve been here, it appears you’ve been through more trying times in the organization than this. Not that that’s any consolation by any means; it’s just my way of saying I know you’re strong enough to not let this get the best of you.

Why stop at salutations? Why not get rid of foreign language terms for techniques, kata names, titles, and so on? Because you start to lose the origins and traditions of the system. I personally think some of the terminology and traditions go a tad too far, but I’d much rather keep it than get rid of it. My post was just a passing thought. Nothing more, and nothing to be taken serious. Same on my end

I love this post. You put it so much better than I could’ve. I’ll add... You get out of it what you put into it. It’s all in the way it’s taught and trained. There’s not much “martial” in doing kata without any application. There’s not much martial in doing tag game point fighting. There’s not much martial in memorizing stuff like one-steps or even multi-steps if the attacker is throwing a straight punch and holding it out while the defender does some complex move(s) without resistance. Add a partner who’s not willing to let you do whatever you want and however slow and/or sloppy you want, and you’re getting martial. Stuff can and definitely should start out slow enough and light enough so the students can get the techniques and principles down, but once that’s achieved the resistance needs to increase. The issue is a lot of places aren’t adding resistance and taking these “deadly techniques” for granted. That’s all fine and good if you’re not interested in defending yourself. Not so good if that’s your reason for being there.

Why stop at salutations? Why not get rid of foreign language terms for techniques, kata names, titles, and so on? Because you start to lose the origins and traditions of the system. I personally think some of the terminology and traditions go a tad too far, but I’d much rather keep it than get rid of it.

The u is silent is the best I can come up with Maybe a native Japanese speaker would be able to elaborate?

I’d imagine disseminating information to members of your organization while keeping it current and confidential. You could put syllabi, manuals, policies, etc. on it and give access to whoever you wanted to have that information. And you could edit and update it relatively easily. I’ve never used it, nor am I a CI, Kaicho, etc., but I’d imagine that would be a great idea. What would be great too is if there’s an option to send an update alert to everyone whenever it occurs.